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Party 10/20 Players Talking Smack About Hsp On Gsn


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i defy anyone who thinks a 10 20 player would beat alaei, esfandiari and chan.these guys are amazing. AMAZING!
I doubt most people here would know either way.You cant identify why someone is better than the next unless you're at least close to their level of play. It's like asking a mentally challenged child whether Newton or Einstein was a greater genius.
This is the same as any sports fan watching a baseball or basketball game or any other sport sitting there and saying "that guy stinks", "he cant hit" etc etcThe worst player in any sport at a professional level is better then 90% of those not playing at a professional levelSame goes here - if these guys were good enough to be beating a 300/600 game - they would be playing
Not really.8 tabling online sees 15 times as many hands as a live game (probably a lot more than 15 times because it's televised). That's a generous estimate for the live part. For a televised table, it's probably less than 1/20th.The "internet pro" winrates against typical 10/20NL players is probably comparable to what the name pro's will expect to make at a table filled with mostly other name pro's and a few shitty players.It wouldnt surprise me if one of these online players could make as much an hour playing 10/20NL as one of the winning players in HSP.And because of how they choose to play, they also face themselves with far less risk, a far more steady stream of income and they have games available all day every day.
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Come on, we all thought if we had the money we would love to have sat at the HSP game with how loose they were playing. Mimi Tran played solid and raked in big money. Give me decent cards and I would win money against the pros playing the televised hands they played.I also think playing 6 tables of online at the same time is a bad way to practise for uber high limits. It's one thing to have discipline to muck K10 off to an early raiser when you are going to be playing 180 hands an hour. It's another thing to fold that after 2 hours of not winning a pot.Internet players get used to fast play and don't always adjust to the slow pace of live play.Plus they spin the chair covers over their heads which gets them beat up alot.And their fat girlfriends gain weight on the TV cameras.Best they stay in their mom's extra bedroom and make huge piles of money to pay for lawyers when they run into police cars while driving drunk.

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you have to admit that the pros on hsp do make plays that make you scratch your head and say "this guy made millions playing this game?" watching players like dn and helmuth call gigantic bets with a rag is a good example. i really do stare at he screen in amazement when people call huge preflpp raises with hands like a-rag and k-2 suited. i seem to remenber in season one dn call ing deeeb for like 30k preflpp with k-j or qj. i mean wow. or when a pro calls bet after bet with a small pp against the riaser. how can u think 44 is good against mimi tran todd brunson? i do think that some of the high limit internet pros would definately hold their own in that game. i mean phil laak did great and other than acting like an idiot what has he ever accomplished to put "earn a spot at that table? abc poker seems to get the money in that game, just like most games. mimi tran, jen harmen, antonio, phil laak, have played solid poker and done well.

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Don't you ever get the feeling watching HSP that the hands being shown are not a very accurate depiction of the actual game? It's weird... tons of calls preflop, but also trapping type limps w/ big pairs too. Rarely see much a whole lot of air bluffing outside of Sammy, but I believe that I remember DN mentioning that there wa a whole lot of raise,reraising going on against phil hellmuth which forced him into making bad decisions. I don't know. I just don't think the game plays as passive as the aired hands show. i could be wrong tho.

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The best 10-20 regulars probably understand NLHE cash games better than most of the HSP crowd. Moreover, they have probably played more hands of NLHE than most of the people on that show.
I've never understood that argument. Yes, online players play way more hands than live-players, but that isn't a quality in itself. An idiot could play 24/7 for 50 years and still be an idiot. Someone may be able to play 1/2 Limit or another game of that level profitably for his whole life, see millions and millions of hands but never improve.
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you have to admit that the pros on hsp do make plays that make you scratch your head and say "this guy made millions playing this game?" watching players like dn and helmuth call gigantic bets with a rag is a good example. i really do stare at he screen in amazement when people call huge preflpp raises with hands like a-rag and k-2 suited. i seem to remenber in season one dn call ing deeeb for like 30k preflpp with k-j or qj. i mean wow. or when a pro calls bet after bet with a small pp against the riaser. how can u think 44 is good against mimi tran todd brunson? i do think that some of the high limit internet pros would definately hold their own in that game. i mean phil laak did great and other than acting like an idiot what has he ever accomplished to put "earn a spot at that table? abc poker seems to get the money in that game, just like most games. mimi tran, jen harmen, antonio, phil laak, have played solid poker and done well.
In this instance of the TV show we are only seeing a small session. Try to take plain solid ABC poker into the big game and I bet you will get killed in the long run.
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The best 10-20 regulars probably understand NLHE cash games better than most of the HSP crowd. Moreover, they have probably played more hands of NLHE than most of the people on that show. Also, there are a few people sitting in the game who are not very good at all. So, I don't think it would come as any surprise if some online specialist had an edge in that game.Obviously bankroll concerns, live reads, tv cameras, intimidation and the like might mitigate their edge, but by the same token, if say, Daniel or Sammy Farha (or really anyone who doesn't play NLHE exclusively) sat down to play 10-20 NL on Party tomorrow at a table with lolo, bld, samo, PhilLedingue, and Shavlik, he would likely have the worst of it. This is not to say that they wouldn't adjust given enough focus and time.I doubt that DN would be happy if Phil H. or Jerry Buss traded their seat with someone who does nothing but play NLHE on 8 tables every day.
I couldn't disagree more with every single thing you say. I won't bother backing it up; others already have, and I don't feel like being the 20th person to refute your stupid argument.
Sometimes cheese sandwiches smell like poop.
Agreed. On a related topic, do you know why you shouldn't try to eat out your girlfriend in the morning?A: Have YOU ever tried to pull apart a grilled cheese sandwich? Think of that the next time your cheese sandwich smells funny...That's all for now.
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4. I'm not sure that Daniel could sit down right now and beat the 50/100 NL on UB over say, 100k hands.
You haven't a clue. There is a reason the 10/20 players on PP are playing 10/20 and not 50/100 or 300/600 or the 4k/8k game at the Bellagio.There is also a reason DN plays all comers for $100k to $1m. He has an edge, and he knows it.Unless of course, he wants to play me HU LHE for 50k/100k blinds. :D Just so long as he doesn't bring Ivey with him. :club:
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they play the game post flop, that is why there is so much limping. also the online pros would feel the pressure when Doyle reraised allin for another 120k I am sure of it.I would lay 2-1 on the BM pros.

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Yeh I forgot about Ivey but I added Hansen in there for a mix of styles. My point however still stands about the top 400 or so proffessionals and the odds I would lay to the OP are 1-1 because he said the 10/20 players would beat the HSP lineup. First, for season one there is just no chance in hell they could win. Just NO chance. Except, they MAY be able to outplay Fred Chamanara in the longrun, and possibly the Buss man. But I'm not even sure about that. Remember, the hands they show on TV are not indicative of all the hands they play, it is a very small sampling of the most interesting hands(i.e. suckouts, Matusow being sucked out on or doing the suckouts, big pots, etc.)ABC poker may seem like it worked in HSP 2 but in the longrun it won't. Remember we've seen like four hours of live play which is like an hour of internet play. Finally, you see these guys like DN and Farha play 44 and KJ preflop because they are primarily postflop players and can read their opponent very well live. Online, while multi-tabling you have to make your decisions quickly and don't have time for the post-flop analysis the pros do, so you might decide to dump KJ in that game.

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Why is there such a B&M versus online flavor to all of this? I understand the OP was bout it, but the whole topic has turned into online versus B&M players.Much like I felt the Corporation versus Andy Beal match gave the pros only a slight percentage point or two advantage, I think the B&M pros would only possibly have a slight percentage point advantage versus online.So far we have seen at least one online guy (Alaie) do VERY well. Later in the season you will see Yukon do well in the game too. Not an online guy but a tournament guy, the Grinder did very well too. Hell we've even seen an idiot hold his own (SHeiky).There are some DAMN good internet guys out there. I would love to see a show set up (cash, not tournament) where they pit the internet guys (Prahlad, Antonius, etc) against teh live guys.And for those saying Gus this and Gus that, I've seen Gus play primarily on the internet over the last 6 monhts and not live. Is he now an internet guy?mc

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Why is there such a B&M versus online flavor to all of this? I understand the OP was bout it, but the whole topic has turned into online versus B&M players.Much like I felt the Corporation versus Andy Beal match gave the pros only a slight percentage point or two advantage, I think the B&M pros would only possibly have a slight percentage point advantage versus online.So far we have seen at least one online guy (Alaie) do VERY well. Later in the season you will see Yukon do well in the game too. Not an online guy but a tournament guy, the Grinder did very well too. Hell we've even seen an idiot hold his own (SHeiky).There are some DAMN good internet guys out there. I would love to see a show set up (cash, not tournament) where they pit the internet guys (Prahlad, Antonius, etc) against teh live guys.And for those saying Gus this and Gus that, I've seen Gus play primarily on the internet over the last 6 monhts and not live. Is he now an internet guy?mc
I agree the B&M pros would only have an edge over the online guys equivalent to what the casino has against the tourists in the pit. God knows the pit gets it's *** handed to it every day.
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I don't think this has become about B&M vs online. It has always been about the OP's original statement - The top players at PP 10/20 NLHE tables would beat the HSP pros. We're not talking here about Antonius, Schlein, Schulman, Johnny Bax, and other top internet players vs the pros. That is a COMPLETELY different story as they are proven live players in tournaments and high stakes games. We're talking here about these 10/20 NL Party nobodies vs a decent high stakes pro playing in a live NL game.

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I thought Alaei said he cut his teeth at Lucky Chances with Antonio Esfandiari in one of the earlier episodes.
He did, Grinder was a B&M cash game guy for years before touneys.I'm not saying there aren't very talented online players, and if the games were being played online, i think the best online players would clean up on the B&M pros. But for the 10/20 party crowd to say they could run over the pros on High Stakes is just silly. Maybe the regulars at the big UB NL games like Green Plastic and the like could hold thier own, but it's pretty much known that even the best online guys have a pretty big learning curve moving to B&M play, just like the B&M guys have a big curve moving to online.They are just 2 different games.
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Interesting discussion.I don't think we can lump all the players into two categories and say outright that online players would be better or the big name pros would be better.They are all different individuals with different skill sets.Then there's the whole who's who? Look at Grinder...he's played lots of online and then moved to more live play later. Which category do you put him in?I find it interesting how most of the discussion boards say that Antonio or Alahi (spell!?!) are the best players sitting there. They definitely play more of the ABC TAG-style that we're familiar with but the pros who have stood the test of time aren't there just because they've been so damn lucky...they're obviously doing something right.There are tonnes of hands we don't see and a play that may look foolish on TV may pay huge dividends over the course of time with lots of small pots.If you know Daniel can call with anything in a no cap 300-600 game then that may slow down some guys who are prone to bluffing. If you make a set and Farha pushes you off a $100,000 pot and then shows the bluff how will that affect you in the future?If you're used to playing 10-20 with 1000+ hands a day how will you react to playing 30 times as big with only a limited time to make money on national television?I lean towards the famous pros if the online players sat at the HSN table but there's always the next Phil Ivey around the corner and it'll most likely come from the online world.Anyways, a session or two of poker doesn't really determine "the best" anyhow.So what am I saying? I don't freakin' know!!

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Why is there such a B&M versus online flavor to all of this? I understand the OP was bout it, but the whole topic has turned into online versus B&M players.Much like I felt the Corporation versus Andy Beal match gave the pros only a slight percentage point or two advantage, I think the B&M pros would only possibly have a slight percentage point advantage versus online.So far we have seen at least one online guy (Alaie) do VERY well. Later in the season you will see Yukon do well in the game too. Not an online guy but a tournament guy, the Grinder did very well too. Hell we've even seen an idiot hold his own (SHeiky).There are some DAMN good internet guys out there. I would love to see a show set up (cash, not tournament) where they pit the internet guys (Prahlad, Antonius, etc) against teh live guys.And for those saying Gus this and Gus that, I've seen Gus play primarily on the internet over the last 6 monhts and not live. Is he now an internet guy?mc
It just annoys me how players think that you have to play NL in a certain manner or else you are a donk. And it just isn't true. Also I think Ted Forrest would make them feel like they are playing with thier cards face up.
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It just annoys me how players think that you have to play NL in a certain manner or else you are a donk. And it just isn't true. Also I think Ted Forrest would make them feel like they are playing with thier cards face up.
I havent read through the thread, but I just want to say this. If I had the money to do so I would confidently stake the best online NL players in that game any and every day of the week.Unfortunately, even if I had the resources I wouldnt be able to because it is near impossible to get in the game unless you are "poker famous" or a donator.
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I havent read through the thread, but I just want to say this. If I had the money to do so I would confidently stake the best online NL players in that game any and every day of the week.Unfortunately, even if I had the resources I wouldnt be able to because it is near impossible to get in the game unless you are "poker famous" or a donator.
You have a ton of credibility so I will take your word for it.
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The 10/20 NL game on party is one of the most profitable NL games on the net given that you can 12 table it against relatively very soft competition. Is it the best choice if you're the best online poker player in the world? No. But there aren't too many people who can make more occasionally 2 or 3 tabling the 50/100 on UB against guys like gp and mahatma. There are a handful of very strong players that choose to make this game their regular game because it is an easy, consistent source of tons of money compared to other games, so don't assume that someone playing it would have moved up if they were any good.Also, please stop with the "the hands shown on TV aren't indicative of how the gsn pros play" or "what you see on TV is only a small sample" arguments because they don't make much sense. I don't have to watch someone play an entire session to know that they are playing badly, to give a simple example when Mr. X calls a re-re-re-re-raise all-in with AT I'm pretty sure he's a donkey. When I see him make 5 such plays there's little doubt left in my head.This whole thread is kind of silly because I doubt that anyone in this thread has played NL cash extensively with either group, let alone both, or has a strong enough understanding of these games to be making any sort of accurate judgment.

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Completely impossible to figure out this arguement. The hands you see on HSP that look bizarre are probably the result of the players eitherA. setting up an opponent for another time, or B. reacting to reads and previous trends to outplay their opponent. The live cash game is far more about things like position, Your opponent and his tendencies, table image and your opponent's state of mind then it is about the cards you hold. Online, ABC poker works best, live your opponents will begin to pick you apart if you don't vary your play. Season one, Jerry Buss played very straightforward poker and got picked apart.I think you can look at lots of Hands on HSP individually and they look like poor plays. But without seeing the context of the entire game you cannot know the thought process behind it. I am not saying the online pros are excellent players and may very well be able to win in that game. But because some plays look odd probably make the game harder to beat then you might think.

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The 10/20 NL game on party is one of the most profitable NL games on the net given that you can 12 table it against relatively very soft competition. Is it the best choice if you're the best online poker player in the world? No. But there aren't too many people who can make more occasionally 2 or 3 tabling the 50/100 on UB against guys like gp and mahatma. There are a handful of very strong players that choose to make this game their regular game because it is an easy, consistent source of tons of money compared to other games, so don't assume that someone playing it would have moved up if they were any good.Also, please stop with the "the hands shown on TV aren't indicative of how the gsn pros play" or "what you see on TV is only a small sample" arguments because they don't make much sense. I don't have to watch someone play an entire session to know that they are playing badly, to give a simple example when Mr. X calls a re-re-re-re-raise all-in with AT I'm pretty sure he's a donkey. When I see him make 5 such plays there's little doubt left in my head.This whole thread is kind of silly because I doubt that anyone in this thread has played NL cash extensively with either group, let alone both, or has a strong enough understanding of these games to be making any sort of accurate judgment.
Poppin this is a very logical and seemingly well thought out response, well said.
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I don't think this has become about B&M vs online. It has always been about the OP's original statement - The top players at PP 10/20 NLHE tables would beat the HSP pros. We're not talking here about Antonius, Schlein, Schulman, Johnny Bax, and other top internet players vs the pros. That is a COMPLETELY different story as they are proven live players in tournaments and high stakes games. We're talking here about these 10/20 NL Party nobodies vs a decent high stakes pro playing in a live NL game.
these 10 20 nl nobodies like you say make over 1m a year playing online poker, isnt thatmore then 3 times what daniel made last year in the 4-8k? Funny thing is i made more last year playing 2-4 3-6 and 5-10 then daniel in is 4-8k game. The online pros are making a shitttt load of money and are seing close to a 100k hands a month
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