calling/folding when you hit top pair/top kicker

[ofplayer 0]

First post, sorry....10/.25 NL Hold 'EmI am somewhat booked up, so I'm not completely silly even at this level. Not really great, but I have read Brunson/Hellmuth/Sklansky, so I've read something about poker.I've lost more than my bankroll just on top pair/top kicker. I've put in 400 or so and lost all of it, playing top pair/top kicker for all my money and losing 25 times or so. And when it is the best hand, it seems to never get paid off: they fold to my reraise. Unfortunately for me (fortunately in theory though), this doesn't happen very often, and either I get sucked out by a draw, or they somehow actually did have the best of it (2 pair or trips)Alright, I've lost an enormous amount of money playing top pair top kicker, and I'm wondering what I should be doing differently. Say you're playing about 7-handed, and you get dealt AJ in middle position. Raise to 1, get called by 2 players.Flop comes J-7-3, two clubs (or rainbow, this is just an example) Checked to me and I bet 2 (3 if there's 2 of one suit, 2 hearts, etc.) Now I'm raised to 7, and I have about 20 left. I move in, and get called and am shown 33. (or J7, or a flush draw, sometimes even something like 6-5 and 8-9 (which has happened twice, and their draw has hit twice, although I want people calling me with those)This type of thing has happened to me about 25 times, and I've gone through 400 or so trying to figure it out. This is by far the biggest leak in my game. The problem is that I don't have a read online here. I can get away from draws with a flush (unless my ace also hits that flush), I can get away from players who don't play a hand except once in a blue moon, and I can get away if the board comes J-10-9 and I get reraised. But getting away from flops like J-7-3 or Q-9-5 with top pair top kicker against a loose table (we are playing .10/.25 after all) is very hard, especially when I'm getting called by 3 people before the flop and when I'm pretty much the only person who folds more than half of his hands. I can get away from rocks who might be slowplaying KK or AA, but when someone is calling 2/3 of the bets in front of him, I just don't see how to call. Here it's 33, but sometimes it's hitting two weird pairs playing crap and catching lucky, other times they are drawing and hit their draw (so far they usually hit their draw, but I'm not expecting that one to last either. Twice they've actually been making moves with inside straight draws that hit!). I'm not just raising with AJ or better either, sometimes I raise in late position with garbage and I raise with things like QJ just to mix it up. Of course, I'm not as aggressive with the QJ as AJ (or AQ), although I still do push if I hit a pair (but fold if I'm against raises and reevaluate if there are callers). I'm definitely not a rock, but compared to most people who play at this level I am... The same thing holds when I'm in the big blind, get a free look at a flop and hit something like 2-4-J or 2-2-K with J2. Does anyone have advice for how I'm supposed to get away from hands like this, or am I just supposed to lose my money?A checklist of what I do understand:1. Avoid rocks or people who slowplay AA or KK, and be very careful about calling them with AQ when a Q hits (usually you're trapped though)2. Hand is much more likely no good if there's a flush or straight on the table. At best I'm pushing in against a draw, and at worst I'm dominated. 3. If you're playing passive people who never raise and suddenly they do raise, watch out.4. Watch out with the Ace hitting with AQ. Way too many people at low levels play A-x, and a lot of them slow play AK as well.Any advice? I feel really stupid for not being able to crack a game that's this loose. Is this just a really long bad run that I should play through?

[Emptyeye 0]

Well, I'm a limit player moreso than NL, but my understanding is that (Unlike in tournaments), you make most of your cash with monsters--top two pair, set, etc. TPTK, while a good hand, is also quite vulnerable, particularly in a game where people like to play any two cards at all. That said, if I bet out and get raised, I'll probably fold it (As most people at those levels tend to be calling stations, it's time to look out if they wake up and start raising you).Note that this presumes no prior reads on the players, IE they've given me no reason to suspect he's not a calling station.

[PhishForChips 0]

In my experience, it depends on the amount of callers you have in the game and if the one who raised is still there at the river. Often times, you need more than top pair in these ring games.

[AnnChristiansen 0]

Now I'm raised to 7, and I have about 20 left.  I move in

Why do you move in?You are a smart guy, have read some books, etc. so let's figure this out: You say you raise with AJ and get two callers. The flop is J high. Assuming that the two callers have random hands (removing your AJ and the J on the flop from the deck, of course) what is the probability that at least one of them is ahead of you?

[rustynail43 0]

I mostly play no limit tournaments and my standard play with top pair is to bet the size of the pot unless it is a large amount of my chips. If I have callers or raisers I fold unless I can pickup a tell. I see a lot of people that just don't bet enough with top pair to get a good feel where they stand. Bet enough to make it easy for them to let their draw or bottom pair go. If they come along, you are most likely beat or need to improve. If a guy pickups my betting pattern, he will start to come over the top. A few well placed re-rasies from time to time keeps that in check.This seems to work for me. Hope it helps.

[ofplayer 0]

So what are you supposed to do instead of moving in? If I see people moving large amounts of chips with crap, when I pick up tptk, can't I assume that it's good? I know that I'm playing with people who can't fold J10 when the flop comes J-7-3 rainbow. Some of them will even call with a 3 and just optimistically think I'm making a move with AK. If I call, then I'm losing my action if a 7 comes up, unless THEY move in, in which case I've got no clue what to do, because people will raise with a 7. Or even a 3. Or me losing my action when a Q, K, or A hits the turn. That's 17 cards (3A, 4K, 4Q, 37s, 3 3s) that could potentially hurt me on the turn. I suppose I could call the raise, then bet the turn regardless and see where I'm at. But a lot of people will overplay a draw and move in, and I feel like they play so many hands that I'm likely going to get pot odds to call anyway. It's hard to play people who don't know what they have, because they think that J10 is a monster. I don't know if they are calling stations or not, especially when people see that I play so "tight" (playing one hand every round in a 7 player game is evidently tight to them).The thing is that people just do not fold draws when it's not worth it. I've seen so many bad draws stick around at low limits that it's disgusting. And raising after a bet of the pot on a J-7-3 flop is viable, isn't it? I am betting 2 or 3 after the flop, 3 IS the size of the pot, and 2 is 2/3 of the pot but there's no draws to force out.There's really 6 legitimate hands that have AJ beat here: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 77, and 33, and not many more non-legitimate hands. People usually raise with the first 4 hands in low limit. I'm usually not at the table long enough to know how they play these hands though, as is the case online, so I don't really know that EVERYONE does this, or how they do it. The only tells I can really get is how long they take to play, how often they have raised before, and what they have done before when they draw monsters. What do I do if there's a draw at the table? Do I call, and then bet the turn if the draw misses? And how do I get enough of a read over a computer screen to have a good idea of what to do when one of the trouble cards does hit? And if one of the trouble cards doesn't hit and I bet, then unless they give me some monstrous tell, then how do I read someone well enough to fold? The odds of people who are playing half of the hands on the table and are willing to call 4xBB with any 8-9 or K-5 suited means that I have to be a favorite. I don't see how I can fold off of a raise either. If I start folding with TPTK, then I'll probably just get run over, and no one will give me any sort of credit when I raise with KJ or some weaker hand. Make no mistake, I realize that I move in that I don't want a call. But what should I do instead? Fold when the odds seem to be 90% that my hand is good? (remember, I'm playing .10/.25 NL, these aren't world class players) Call, and then check if I'm out of position? Call, and then bet? If I'm in position, then how do I know when I'm supposed to fold or not? If they have a 7 or a 3, then maybe they would have folded, but I just gave them a free card to hit two pair or trips, and if I'm out of position, I may have to give them another such opportunity. Really, the books don't talk about this too much, because online play is different: it's much harder to pick up reads. I think I recognize that if I were playing a 2/4 NL game that the answer would change and I'm much more likely to give players credit. But .10/.25 is more like a home game, therefore, don't I have to open up my play and play this hand? Or am I just way off base?Where has my thinking gone wrong?

[Emptyeye 0]

Well, your logic is generally right. People are more than willing to call with bottom pair, 45, ridiculous runner-runner draws, etc.However, even at micro-limits (At both limit and the small bit of NL I play), my experience has been that people (And again, this presume no prior read on players) are NOT generally willing to RAISE with such hands unless they've hit monsters ("monsters" in this case meaning 2-pair or better). So you have to be aware of this.In regards to "if I fold TPTK I'll get run over", that's only if the people at the table are conscious of the fact that you've folded TPTK. Frankly, if they're conscious of that, it's quite possible that they're also conscious of the fact that you seem to be more than willing to push all-in with TPTK, even when evidence shows that you may be beat (As the raise on the flop should tip you off).

[Pogue 0]

I mostly play no limit tournaments and my standard play with top pair is to bet the size of the pot unless it is a large amount of my chips.  If I have callers or raisers I fold unless I can pickup a tell.  I see a lot of people that just don't bet enough with top pair to get a good feel where they stand.  Bet enough to make it easy for them to let their draw or bottom pair go.  If they come along, you are most likely beat or need to improve.  If a guy pickups my betting pattern, he will start to come over the top.  A few well placed re-rasies from time to time keeps that in check.This seems to work for me.  Hope it helps.

pool? is that you?Pogue

[ofplayer 0]

People are willing to raise with a bad jack, or KJ, or QJ, or even A7 if they think I missed, aren't they? The other factor is that I'm doing this pot sized bet basically every time I raise (which isn't that often, probably once every round or so) maybe a little less. If there's only one or two callers, then when the flop comes, then I bet 75% or so of the pot again. Then I reevaluate if I call. In other words, when I raise, then a follow up bet is usualy coming behind it whether I hit it or not. I'd expect this is standard, and I steal a lot of money this way. And when people raise me, then I generally fold. If they call, then I try and think about what they have, and play from there. I'd imagine after 15 rounds of this that this gets frustrating, and people will want to make a move. So if they call with J10 and see J-7-3, and I make that pot sized bet, it doesn't mean anything to them. I don't think they want to give me a free card though.If I fold TPTK now, then aren't I encouraging more of this type of play in the future, and just relying on when I catch monsters? What if it's AK instead of AJ? or AQ? I've seen a lot of raises with hands, but I've seen a lot of raises with nothing, with top pair bad kicker, and with a draw, even some really bad draws. Am I just flat out wrong that I probably don't have the best hand after a raise? And do I really have to wait for an overpair or trips or two pair to move in?I don't know, I kinda don't like the idea of giving all that money away when people catch top pair lower kicker. Yes, I have to be careful after the raise, but the question is how to take the most amount of equity from the situation. Even if I only win 3/7 of the pots I'm making more than if I'm folding. When I list all the hands that have me beat, it just seems so hard to fold. Once in a while it can be done, especially since my style invites me to get bitten by KK or AA being slow played behind me (but that's only happened twice so far, because people are more apt to reraise from what I've found anyway, or I get some sort of tell that lets me fold).But, if I'm not mistaken, here would be a possible chart:Hands that have me beat:Legit: Non-legit:AA (92-8) J-7 (75-25)KK (80-20) J-3 (75-25)QQ (80-20) 7-3 (75-25)JJ (98-2)77 (95-5)33 (95-5)Hands that I have beat (that people could raise with)Legit:KJ QJJ10A7K7889910-10 (all of these are 92-8)Draws (flush, straight, etc.) (65-35)Bluffs (95-5)Inside straight draws (85-15)Bad 7s and Bad 3s are calling hands, so they're not included. The odds of a hand being a hand I have beat is quite a bit higher than a hand than beats me. The problem is that hands that I have beat will often fold to a reraise, and calling a raise just isn't sensible because of all the scare cards. I'm generally not afraid of AA/KK/QQ/JJ because they're going to reraise at these limits pre-flop (even 7-7 gets reraised with a lot preflop, for reasons I don't want to even try to understand). I don't know, maybe I'm confusing my odds up here, because I think the odds of a hand calling with J-7 or J-3 is very small, where I shouldn't be assuming that. I've only seen an overpair once when I play these hands. Meanwhile, I've seen 9 people hit two pairs (with cards they shouldn't be calling raises with), 9 of them playing trips, 5 of them call me with draws and hit, and 2 of them call with inside straight draws and hit. Meanwhile I've won about 5 hands after moving in (in the last 30 times, since I've kept track of this lately). (2 of them were draws, 2 had inferior top pair, and one of them was someone who had A3 and just decided to give me a birthday present) Maybe people are making really great folds with QJ or KJ or other like hands, but I really doubt it in this game. Is this incorrect analysis?I'm gonna shut up for a while now...

[rustynail43 0]

So maybe where your having trouble is in reading the other players. I suck at limit poker, so if that’s what you play, take my advise with a grain of salt. In no limit, we look for strength or weakness then make our decision. We want to win pre flop or post flop, not at the showdown.Watch for the players who thinks top pair is worth going all in on. Also watch if the all in player always has the nuts. What is strength to one is not strong to the next. Did they slow play? Did they check raise? Did they show weakness when strong or strength when weak. I watched a guy stab at the pot over and over with little or nothing. Then when he could have a big hand, he checks. I folded, others called, he had the nuts. If you had the hand that could beat you, would you have played it the same way? Keep playing and watching every bet, especially when you’re not in the hand. Ask yourself why did they play the hand this way. After a few thousand hands, you really can pickup how best to play your top pair top kicker. In the interim, if your not completely sure, let the hand go.Until Daniel stops partying all the time and finishes his book (hint hint), pickup Matthew Hilger’s Internet Texas Hold’em. It’s a good read for playing pairs.

[lies 0]

I think you should be raising more preflop to protect your hands.In my experience at the tables you are playing at, I like a PFR of about $2.I know it is 8X BB, which is alot, but because the blinds are so small, some people play almost every hand just to see if they flop a monster. Normally, you want these people to call the raises you put out there, but if you have 3 or 4 of them at your table and get 1 regular caller, your odds go way down. If you hit TPTK on the flop with a hand like AJ, you want to bet more than 2$ into the flop, you want to bet about $4 or $5, dont let the draws stay in without paying you off.If you get played back at with a bet like that, often you are running into a set or an overpair and it is pretty easy to let go.

[NormanHaupt 0]

Soundsl ike you need to protect your hand here. Push hard, I'd think, so the only ones who'll follow you have PP or paired the board- whih you have them doominated. If its KJ or QJ just hope to aviod a second pairing.Seems to me anyway

[lies 0]

In addition to my previous post:If you are playing these hands correctly, you will rarely see a showdown, you will be essentially buying your own raised pots.