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I Must Be Missing Something?


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Hi all,I'm new to the game - played about 6,000 hands mostly on limit (but some NL), and although I had a couple of early profitable sessions, I'm overall well behind. It's at this point I decided to back off a bit and educate myself more on the ins and outs of Poker.So I come to a forum like this and read as much as I can about the experience of others. I've also ordered Sklansky's book SSHE, as recommended by some of the contributors here.But what I don't get is this......there's clearly some very good and very experienced players who contribute here (better than me anyway...) - but even you guys appear to struggle to win consistently at Limit. When I say consistently - I mean say 75% of the time - a number that I wouldn't have thought unreasonable given that there are obviously plenty of players on the Limit tables who have very little idea what they're doing (ie like me!)Is it because quality players are not really being rewarded at Limit tables because there are too many inexperienced players, with too much money, who are fishing? If I can use the example that really made me question why the hell I was playing poker (and please excuse the format I use to explain the hands) - I was holding AA and got another A on the flop. So I raised and reraised through to the river only to be beaten by a guy holding Q8 offsuited, who flunked a straight on the river with a 9. What the hell was he doing in the hand at that stage? He even had the audacity to re-raise me on the turn! So I guess what I'm really asking is how much do you guys think quality play is being rewarded at limit? You can be the best player at the table, and be doing everything as the maths would tell you to do, and yet still lose to the clown who draws a straight on the river in a hand he should have left before the flop!Cheers

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I'm not sure that you should be aiming for a certain winrate in terms of sessions.Checking my PT database, I only win like 58% of my sessions.However, limit is about winning small amounts, pushing smaller edges, that add up over time.So, in reality, limit rewards quality play quite a bit more than most suspect. That is also why there are a ton of fish at it.Don't kid yourself though, you will get sucked out on a ton, and you will go up and down, and the variance will drive you crazy at times. But, if you are playing well, and maximizing your edges, then you will show a profit over time.Also, note that it doesn't matter at all how much you win or lose in a given session. It's all about playing well. If you get unlucky for a night, and lose money over 1000 hands, that happens. You really can't look at winrate until a minimum of 10k hands have been played, but more like 100k to determine a truer win rate.- Zach

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Part of my problem with the whole winning session % theory is that in limit it tends to be more difficult to wrestle your way out of a hole. People tend to notice when someone is down 15 big bets or something and are more apt to come after you, figuring some amount of tilt/all around frustration. Add to that the anonymity of the internet (ie, they don't have to worry about looking someone in the eye after a play similar to the one you suggested), as well as the fact that some see any hand as a drawing hand and each street as being just one more bet. These factors combined can often make a losing session very hard to come back from, whereas in no limit, you make one huge hand and you can dig yourself out of some incredible holes, something far less common in fixed limit.That said, if you can get on a roll and don't find yourself getting sucked out on, it also adds to the potential for winning sessions. So the goal isn't to win every session it's to maximize your wins and minimize your losses for the neverending session that is your poker career (that was the lamest thing I've ever typed... :club: ).Just some extra food for thought. Zach is right on, by the way. Pushing edges, both large and small, long term is what the game is about.

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That may have been lame doubleatrain, but it's exactly right, and really how you should approach the game.
It's much lamer if you have Pomp and Circumstance going through your head when you read it. :DStill valid, though, don't get me wrong.
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Like double said, minimize your losses and maximize your wins. However easier said than done. Dont be results biased. If you lost with QQ 4 times in one night, dont think about not RAISING, just to avoid getting sucked out on. I had this mentality in my earlier career, and mainly it had to do with a short bankroll and limited knowledge of the math aspects. Also the tilt factor is something that can cut into success in limit. If you're mad and want to make your money back, take a deep breath and get up. Don't play angry, and dont waste bets trying to make your money back. If you want a game that is soley based on skill,go play O/8. Very little variance, and lots of fish. I still have trouble knowing when to stop a losing session. For my NL game its different, because I can stack off once or twice and be even or slightly up. Limit isnt the best "comeback" game. Does anyone think we should have a set rule on how many BB we can lose in one sitting?

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some good advice so far. this isn't conclusive, but most would agree that in any individual hand in limit, you are relatively unlikely to be rewarded for good play than in no limit. in no limit i may not maximize and still win half a buy-in. i may chase incorrectly and win a buy-in.however some would argue that in limit you are better rewarded for consistent play in the long run.winning sessions are, as has been said, overrated. over my first 5K hands at a new site, I have been running pretty well and have a good win rate. however i've only won 53% of my sessions. generally, i am right around 50%. but when you win you win more than you lose when you lose.

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However, limit is about winning small amounts, pushing smaller edges, that add up over time.
Phil Gordon wrote that NL games are about maximizing your wins, and Limit games are about minimizing your losses. Kinda makes sense when you think about it.
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I'm not sure that you should be aiming for a certain winrate in terms of sessions.Checking my PT database, I only win like 58% of my sessions.However, limit is about winning small amounts, pushing smaller edges, that add up over time.So, in reality, limit rewards quality play quite a bit more than most suspect. That is also why there are a ton of fish at it.Don't kid yourself though, you will get sucked out on a ton, and you will go up and down, and the variance will drive you crazy at times. But, if you are playing well, and maximizing your edges, then you will show a profit over time.Also, note that it doesn't matter at all how much you win or lose in a given session. It's all about playing well. If you get unlucky for a night, and lose money over 1000 hands, that happens. You really can't look at winrate until a minimum of 10k hands have been played, but more like 100k to determine a truer win rate.- Zach
58% is pretty good, in my opinion. If I could have maintained that sort of winrate in NL I would be a millionaire today.
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58% is pretty good, in my opinion. If I could have maintained that sort of winrate in NL I would be a millionaire today.
Yeah, that's just my sessions since I started playing SH, and I'm running 3 bb/100 over 15k, so I'm happy with 58% :club:
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