How Stupid Do U Have To Be To Believe In God?

[WrongWay 0]

thats the thing, im well aware that a lot of well educated, intelligent people believe in god. people with high iqs etc. what should be obvious is that is not the highest level of intelligence achievable. some people are born smarter than others, u cant help it. some guy has like a 210 iq what did he earn it? did he do something that i didnt? its just his genes. the real intelligence lies in how far your mind can go to be aware of your surroundings. some people cant be aware enough to see that theres no god, no matter how high their iq goes.

Differnt brains work differently. For example, I've always excelled in math and science. Aced every test in AP Calc and AP Physics. 1420 SAT (770math/650Lang) and that was back in the mid-80s, before they started inflating the scores becuase they were dropping every year. I sit through a lecture on Integration by Parts, and just "get it:, most times seeing where the lecture is going before the teacher even gets there.By profession, I'm a computer programmer. Again, see something once, and I just "get it". There is a problem that needs fixed, and I just know how to handle it.IQ tests have measured me anywhere from 140 - 160. Somewhere between top 1% and top .1%.Now, give me a set of spelling words. Have me write every word 100 times. Wait 10 minutes. Ask me how to spell one of the words.... Woosh... gone from my memory. Seriously.... I flunked spelling tests from 1st grade to 12th. College papers were all covered in red ink with spelling and grammer corrections. The QA team that checks my code knows they need to be extra vigelant checking the UI for spelling errors. Maintenance coders have a heck of a time matching variable names because so many of mine are misspelled.Would you read a poorly spelled and constructed essay of mine, and assume I'm an idiot? The key to human intelligence is the ability to see patterns in the data. People who are very good at memorization (like good spellers) generally have a more difficult time seeing through the data to the core concept (like people good at math).But how do we sort the data? There is too much!!!! Simple. We form expectations. Data that fits the expectation, reconfirms it in their heads. Data that doesn't fit is easily dismissed.My dad, whom I consider to be every bit as intelligent as me, is a racist. In his mind, black people are all criminals, no good lazy bastards, and leaches on society..... Well, that Colon Powel guy seems okay, but the rest are worthless. Everytime he sees a criminal on TV that is black, his opinion is reinforced. When he sees a successful black person... obviously they got their job because of affermitive action.Religious Faith is just one of these patterns. It is the foundation of the religious person's belief system... The one belief which can't be challenged. Everytime something good happens, it reaffirms their belief in God. Everytime something bad happens, well "the Lord works in mysterious ways", or "God is punishing us for accepting homosexuality and abortion", or whatever.A bus full of 40 students slides off an icy road, down a hill, into a river. 10 die.... Praise the Lord that he saved 30.A woman pulling onto a freeway doesn't see a car, pulls into the side of it, sending her minivan spinning out of control, into the guard rail. The daughter in the back seat is not buckeled in, and falls out of the vehicle, off the side of the freeway, and lands on a freshly watered, grassy, steep embankment 20 feet below. The kid suffers many broken bones, cuts, etc. Praise God that the kid fell 20 feet over the guardrail and didn't die. Wait... the embankment was at a 45 degree angle, so force of impact was as if falling from 10 feet, which would rarely be fatal.... Why didn't God make you see the other car, or make her put on here seat belt? Who cares, God saved my daughter.This, is why I think the Scientific Method is so important. The rigors of the system require people to face their own expectaions, eventually reducing or eliminating the effects of human flaws from the process of searching for knowledge.People that say "Evolution is just a theory" clearly have no idea what that means. Theory means that it has had evey available test thrown against it, has been run against all the data, has been scrutanized and then retested and scrutanized again, and it FITS the data!!!Compare this to faith.... This is my belief. It is "The Truth". It is above challenge. Faith embraces human flaw, the ability to hold false beliefs and expectaions, and glorifies it. When science finds fault with the beliefs, rather than questioning the beliefs, the religious seek to shut down that line of scientific research.

[the shank 0]

Differnt brains work differently. For example, I've always excelled in math and science. Aced every test in AP Calc and AP Physics. 1420 SAT (770math/650Lang) and that was back in the mid-80s, before they started inflating the scores becuase they were dropping every year. I sit through a lecture on Integration by Parts, and just "get it:, most times seeing where the lecture is going before the teacher even gets there.By profession, I'm a computer programmer. Again, see something once, and I just "get it". There is a problem that needs fixed, and I just know how to handle it.IQ tests have measured me anywhere from 140 - 160. Somewhere between top 1% and top .1%.Now, give me a set of spelling words. Have me write every word 100 times. Wait 10 minutes. Ask me how to spell one of the words.... Woosh... gone from my memory. Seriously.... I flunked spelling tests from 1st grade to 12th. College papers were all covered in red ink with spelling and grammer corrections. The QA team that checks my code knows they need to be extra vigelant checking the UI for spelling errors. Maintenance coders have a heck of a time matching variable names because so many of mine are misspelled.Would you read a poorly spelled and constructed essay of mine, and assume I'm an idiot? The key to human intelligence is the ability to see patterns in the data. People who are very good at memorization (like good spellers) generally have a more difficult time seeing through the data to the core concept (like people good at math).But how do we sort the data? There is too much!!!! Simple. We form expectations. Data that fits the expectation, reconfirms it in their heads. Data that doesn't fit is easily dismissed.My dad, whom I consider to be every bit as intelligent as me, is a racist. In his mind, black people are all criminals, no good lazy bastards, and leaches on society..... Well, that Colon Powel guy seems okay, but the rest are worthless. Everytime he sees a criminal on TV that is black, his opinion is reinforced. When he sees a successful black person... obviously they got their job because of affermitive action.Religious Faith is just one of these patterns. It is the foundation of the religious person's belief system... The one belief which can't be challenged. Everytime something good happens, it reaffirms their belief in God. Everytime something bad happens, well "the Lord works in mysterious ways", or "God is punishing us for accepting homosexuality and abortion", or whatever.A bus full of 40 students slides off an icy road, down a hill, into a river. 10 die.... Praise the Lord that he saved 30.A woman pulling onto a freeway doesn't see a car, pulls into the side of it, sending her minivan spinning out of control, into the guard rail. The daughter in the back seat is not buckeled in, and falls out of the vehicle, off the side of the freeway, and lands on a freshly watered, grassy, steep embankment 20 feet below. The kid suffers many broken bones, cuts, etc. Praise God that the kid fell 20 feet over the guardrail and didn't die. Wait... the embankment was at a 45 degree angle, so force of impact was as if falling from 10 feet, which would rarely be fatal.... Why didn't God make you see the other car, or make her put on here seat belt? Who cares, God saved my daughter.This, is why I think the Scientific Method is so important. The rigors of the system require people to face their own expectaions, eventually reducing or eliminating the effects of human flaws from the process of searching for knowledge.People that say "Evolution is just a theory" clearly have no idea what that means. Theory means that it has had evey available test thrown against it, has been run against all the data, has been scrutanized and then retested and scrutanized again, and it FITS the data!!!Compare this to faith.... This is my belief. It is "The Truth". It is above challenge. Faith embraces human flaw, the ability to hold false beliefs and expectaions, and glorifies it. When science finds fault with the beliefs, rather than questioning the beliefs, the religious seek to shut down that line of scientific research.

good post, many correct observations

[uahphysics 0]

Differnt brains work differently. For example, I've always excelled in math and science. Aced every test in AP Calc and AP Physics. 1420 SAT (770math/650Lang) and that was back in the mid-80s, before they started inflating the scores becuase they were dropping every year. I sit through a lecture on Integration by Parts, and just "get it:, most times seeing where the lecture is going before the teacher even gets there.By profession, I'm a computer programmer. Again, see something once, and I just "get it". There is a problem that needs fixed, and I just know how to handle it.IQ tests have measured me anywhere from 140 - 160. Somewhere between top 1% and top .1%.Now, give me a set of spelling words. Have me write every word 100 times. Wait 10 minutes. Ask me how to spell one of the words.... Woosh... gone from my memory. Seriously.... I flunked spelling tests from 1st grade to 12th. College papers were all covered in red ink with spelling and grammer corrections. The QA team that checks my code knows they need to be extra vigelant checking the UI for spelling errors. Maintenance coders have a heck of a time matching variable names because so many of mine are misspelled.Would you read a poorly spelled and constructed essay of mine, and assume I'm an idiot? The key to human intelligence is the ability to see patterns in the data. People who are very good at memorization (like good spellers) generally have a more difficult time seeing through the data to the core concept (like people good at math).But how do we sort the data? There is too much!!!! Simple. We form expectations. Data that fits the expectation, reconfirms it in their heads. Data that doesn't fit is easily dismissed.My dad, whom I consider to be every bit as intelligent as me, is a racist. In his mind, black people are all criminals, no good lazy bastards, and leaches on society..... Well, that Colon Powel guy seems okay, but the rest are worthless. Everytime he sees a criminal on TV that is black, his opinion is reinforced. When he sees a successful black person... obviously they got their job because of affermitive action.Religious Faith is just one of these patterns. It is the foundation of the religious person's belief system... The one belief which can't be challenged. Everytime something good happens, it reaffirms their belief in God. Everytime something bad happens, well "the Lord works in mysterious ways", or "God is punishing us for accepting homosexuality and abortion", or whatever.A bus full of 40 students slides off an icy road, down a hill, into a river. 10 die.... Praise the Lord that he saved 30.A woman pulling onto a freeway doesn't see a car, pulls into the side of it, sending her minivan spinning out of control, into the guard rail. The daughter in the back seat is not buckeled in, and falls out of the vehicle, off the side of the freeway, and lands on a freshly watered, grassy, steep embankment 20 feet below. The kid suffers many broken bones, cuts, etc. Praise God that the kid fell 20 feet over the guardrail and didn't die. Wait... the embankment was at a 45 degree angle, so force of impact was as if falling from 10 feet, which would rarely be fatal.... Why didn't God make you see the other car, or make her put on here seat belt? Who cares, God saved my daughter.This, is why I think the Scientific Method is so important. The rigors of the system require people to face their own expectaions, eventually reducing or eliminating the effects of human flaws from the process of searching for knowledge.People that say "Evolution is just a theory" clearly have no idea what that means. Theory means that it has had evey available test thrown against it, has been run against all the data, has been scrutanized and then retested and scrutanized again, and it FITS the data!!!Compare this to faith.... This is my belief. It is "The Truth". It is above challenge. Faith embraces human flaw, the ability to hold false beliefs and expectaions, and glorifies it. When science finds fault with the beliefs, rather than questioning the beliefs, the religious seek to shut down that line of scientific research.

I agree with most of your post. I'm a Christian. Now, it may be because I consider myself to be a very liberal type of Christian(I'm as turned off by fundamental christians as most atheists are), but I don't see why science and religion can't coexist. I believe in God(in whatever shape or form that He exists), and I also believe in evolution, the big bang, all those science-y theories about the beginnings of the universe, because they're true. I was an astrophysics major for two years(I stopped because I got extremely dis-interested in regular physics) and got to have plenty of discussions with my professors about these subjects, and I even had one Astrophysics teacher who happened to be a religious person, so he was a good person to talk to. Anyways, my point is, I don't think all your assumptions are correct about faith not being challenged, because I've just gone through a very weird/rough period of my life where I rejected all my feelings and beliefs, and then I found them again. I also think it's a little pretentious to imply(at least that's why I got from your post, if that's not your intention, then I apologize) that believing in God means you are not of high intelligence. Lastly, I would just like to ask why people who do not believe in God, are trying(and it seems like it's everyday on this board) to disprove Him, and to make all Christians feel like they are wrong and are stupid. Honestly, does that fact that I believe in God bother you that much? Does it affect your life at all? Now, I'm assuming that you're going to counter by saying that there are plenty of Christians trying to persuede you everyday to believe. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, because I don't partake in any of that. I'm a firm believer in letting individuals make their own decisions. What I know is this: I grew up in a Christian environment, and I felt very empty, because it was all forced. Then I rejected everything I had been taught and tried to find out things for myself. After a lot of time and searching, I came back to Christianity and I've never been happier. I see the people in my life in a new light, I'm a lot more loving that I used to be. I'm truly happy, and I don't see why I should be attacked for that.(I'm in no way attacking you or trying to suggest that you were attacking someone, I'm speaking very generally)

[WrongWay 0]

I don't see why science and religion can't coexist.

They are polar opposite world views. Science requires that no belief be held more strongly than supported by evidence. Religion requires a leap of faith...To believe without evidence.

I've just gone through a very weird/rough period of my life where I rejected all my feelings and beliefs, and then I found them again.

And "found them again" based purely on objective evidence that could stand up to rigerous scientific study?

I also think it's a little pretentious to imply(at least that's why I got from your post, if that's not your intention, then I apologize) that believing in God means you are not of high intelligence.

Quite the contrary. My father, a HIGHLY intelligent person, was used as an example of how a highly intelligent person can hold incorrect beliefs. It is "human nature" to develop false beliefs, and once developed, it is human nature to have those beliefs reinforced by just about every experience of our lives... Especially something like religion.This is why I think it is SOOOO important to constantly be running ALL of our beliefs against all the scientific method. The beauty of the scientific method is that it seeks to eliminate human flaw from the development of knowledge.On the flip side, religion takes human flaws (the ability to hold false beliefs and to have those beliefs reinforced by the way we naturally process data) and glorifies them.The key to holding correct beliefs is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of consciously refusing to accept beliefs without constantly retesting them against objective data. When you see something that "fits", realize that you are noticing it ONLY becuase it fits. When you see something that does not fit, FORCE yourself to accept that data.Moving this to fit a poker site. When you started playing, my guess is that you had some pre-conceived notions of how to play. Did you lock in on those beliefs and place them on a pedistal above challenge? When you won, it would reinforce your beliefs. If you lost, then it must have been bad luck. If you do build your poker style that way, you're probably a loser.Or did you read, learn, try different things? Whenever I hear good poker players giving advice, I see them saying that you constantly have to mix up your game, try different things. If you go on a bad run, then step back from your game and reevaluate it. Try different things, mix it up again and see if you can figure out why your game went bad. OBJECTIVE evaluation. Was it REALLY just bad luck, or have you developed bad habits, or has the game changed and you haven't kept up?If you are able to constantly re-challenge all of your beliefs, then in our society, you will be an outcast for refusing to go along to with the pack. You will be a geek, a trouble maker, a jerk. Why? Because an exceptionally large number of peope have convinced themselves that they are fat and happy in their pile of crap beliefs. They don't like when people come along and challenge their beliefs....and do so in an effective way.

Lastly, I would just like to ask why people who do not believe in God, are trying(and it seems like it's everyday on this board) to disprove Him, and to make all Christians feel like they are wrong and are stupid. Honestly, does that fact that I believe in God bother you that much? Does it affect your life at all? Now, I'm assuming that you're going to counter by saying that there are plenty of Christians trying to persuede you everyday to believe. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, because I don't partake in any of that. I'm a firm believer in letting individuals make their own decisions. What I know is this: I grew up in a Christian environment, and I felt very empty, because it was all forced. Then I rejected everything I had been taught and tried to find out things for myself. After a lot of time and searching, I came back to Christianity and I've never been happier. I see the people in my life in a new light, I'm a lot more loving that I used to be. I'm truly happy, and I don't see why I should be attacked for that.(I'm in no way attacking you or trying to suggest that you were attacking someone, I'm speaking very generally)

You should be attacked for being fat and happy in a pile of crap, because you're in a pile of crap.You felt empty without your mythological beliefs, because you were wrongly conditioned to beleive that you would feel empty without religious beliefs.It would be better for society if we could toss off the bonds of mythology and supersticion, and evaluate EVERYTHING based on the data. Reject bigotry, reject the myth of environmentalism, of multi-culturalism, of party politics. Stop glorifying beliefs in Atlantis, UFOs, ghosts, gods, etc. It would be best for society if we just accepted this reality, and stopped focusing on magic and make believe as a source for "purpose".Mostly, we attack religious beliefs because they are wrong.

[uahphysics 0]

I'm actually really interested in your viewpoints on these subjects. I've met several people that had very very similar views as yourself(I was going to somewhat of a nerd college) and I've had several discussions of this nature. There are 3 things that I'd like to bring up to see what you have to say about them.1) I understand that you feel I'm wrong. That's fine, it's not my business to try and persuade you one way or the other, but what I'm asking is this: If I am wrong, where's the harm? How are YOU affected by MY belief in something? Which leads back to my original questioning of why you felt the need to tell me I'm wrong. 2) Do you believe in love? Or, do you simply believe that we find someone we're biologically sexually attracted to, mate with them, and then finish our lives. What I'm getting at is, the scientific method doesn't have any way of taking into account human emotion. Your love for someone, whether it be a spouse, or your best friend, can't be quantified through the scientific method. So, how do you plan on explaining these feelings of love to yourself, if you believe in love?3) I'd just like you to explain a little bit more your ideas on why society would be better without any religion, and if we ran all of the things we believe through the scientific method.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

what i find ridiculous is the notion that such a being would hand carve humans or put us up on a pedastool over all the other potential life in the universe. i also find it very silly that people follow scriptures thousands of years old, translated many times over (or maybe only once?) without any evidence that what was written down is more than a fairy tale.

I find it ridiculous too, so would everyone else, so maybe there was plenty of evidence, at least enough to where people willingly died horrible deaths for these so called fairly tails.

[WrongWay 0]

1) If I am wrong, where's the harm? How are YOU affected by MY belief in something? Which leads back to my original questioning of why you felt the need to tell me I'm wrong.

Because, if you're willing to let this unreasonible belief go without question, then you're likely to let other unreasonible beliefs go without question. Next thing you know, you think the war on drugs is a good thing, that homosexuality needs to stay in the closet, that occasional exposure to second hand smoke will kill you, that silicone breast implants cause disease, that airport screening makes you safer, that Social Security is just fine, someone invented a carberator that made an engine get 100MPG but was killed by the big oil companies, etc.....I encourage everyone to constantly be requestioning EVERYTHING, and this must first start with freeing your mind from the trap of faith. Be a freethinker. Reject mythology, reject folklore, reject tradition, THINK!!!!By the way, I'm not gay, don't smoke, the strongest drug I "do" is caffine (with high fructose corn sugar and carmel color thanks)... That does not mean that I should not support gay rights, smokers rights and push an end to this war on ourselves that we call "the drug war"....

2) Do you believe in love?

I believe that love, like all other emotions, are electro-chemical responses to stimuli. When in the presence of your pair-bond, chemicals are released. Love is an addiction to those chemicals.We can fake these feelings with other drugs, like nicotine and cocaine.

3) I'd just like you to explain a little bit more your ideas on why society would be better without any religion, and if we ran all of the things we believe through the scientific method.

Because we'd be MUCH more likely to use data, rather than emotion and folklore, to correctly make decisions that would best improve the human condition. Instead of arguing gay rights and abortion and vice, we might just be able to address some real issues. Instead of "because the Bible says so", maybe we could have some real informed discussions. Because maybe we'd finally accept that humans are flawed, and wihout rigurous work to prevent it, we all tend to create and strenghen, then cling to FALSE beliefs.

I find it ridiculous too, so would everyone else, so maybe there was plenty of evidence, at least enough to where people willingly died horrible deaths for these so called fairly tails.

So, you're saying that Islam is correct? There are lots of people willing to suffer horrible deaths for it, so there must be plenty of evidence that it is correct.Or maybe, humans have lots of unreasonible beliefs they are willing to die for. Maybe we need to accept that humans have flaws that allow them to hold unreasonible beliefs, and maybe... just maybe.... We should attack those unreasonible beliefs with the light of reason instead of being willing to kill and be killed simply because others have different unreasonible beliefs than ours.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

So, you're saying that Islam is correct? There are lots of people willing to suffer horrible deaths for it, so there must be plenty of evidence that it is correct..

No, not at all. Plenty of people commit suicide for all kinds of irrational reasons. But the early Christian teachers had first hand knowledge of who they were teaching about. I am talking about the "conspirators, " as you would call them , of the Christian faith. The so called inventors of the kinder, gentler, God you talked about in another post. These people, who were NOT depending solely on faith, but, were actual witnesses of the life of God on earth. If they were just making up a new way to manipulate the public then they would have done as Osamu Bin Laden and send lackeys out to kill themselves while he holes up in a safe house or cave somewhere. These people didn't send out other miserable souls to die, they died themselves, and with full knowledge of the truth(or falsity) of their teachings.

[crowTrobot 2]

No, not at all. Plenty of people commit suicide for all kinds of irrational reasons. But the early Christian teachers had first hand knowledge of who they were teaching about. I am talking about the "conspirators, " as you would call them , of the Christian faith. The so called inventors of the kinder, gentler, God you talked about in another post. These people, who were NOT depending solely on faith, but, were actual witnesses of the life of God on earth. If they were just making up a new way to manipulate the public then they would have done as Osamu Bin Laden and send lackeys out to kill themselves while he holes up in a safe house or cave somewhere. These people didn't send out other miserable souls to die, they died themselves, and with full knowledge of the truth(or falsity) of their teachings.

you can't use something written about what happened to any of jesus' contemporaries to prove jesus was god (assuming the man jesus even existed). what was written about them is just as likely to be fable or embellished history as anything written about jesus.and even if true it proves nothing - followers of modern cults with contemporary god-heads have been frequently willing to die for their beliefs.

[uahphysics 0]

Because, if you're willing to let this unreasonible belief go without question, then you're likely to let other unreasonible beliefs go without question. Next thing you know, you think the war on drugs is a good thing, that homosexuality needs to stay in the closet, that occasional exposure to second hand smoke will kill you, that silicone breast implants cause disease, that airport screening makes you safer, that Social Security is just fine, someone invented a carberator that made an engine get 100MPG but was killed by the big oil companies, etc.....I encourage everyone to constantly be requestioning EVERYTHING, and this must first start with freeing your mind from the trap of faith. Be a freethinker. Reject mythology, reject folklore, reject tradition, THINK!!!!By the way, I'm not gay, don't smoke, the strongest drug I "do" is caffine (with high fructose corn sugar and carmel color thanks)... That does not mean that I should not support gay rights, smokers rights and push an end to this war on ourselves that we call "the drug war"....I believe that love, like all other emotions, are electro-chemical responses to stimuli. When in the presence of your pair-bond, chemicals are released. Love is an addiction to those chemicals.We can fake these feelings with other drugs, like nicotine and cocaine. Because we'd be MUCH more likely to use data, rather than emotion and folklore, to correctly make decisions that would best improve the human condition. Instead of arguing gay rights and abortion and vice, we might just be able to address some real issues. Instead of "because the Bible says so", maybe we could have some real informed discussions. Because maybe we'd finally accept that humans are flawed, and wihout rigurous work to prevent it, we all tend to create and strenghen, then cling to FALSE beliefs.

well, I support gay marriage, so I think its a little bit of a generalization to assume that people of faith are uncapable of thinking clearly, or developing their own opinions on certain subjects. Also, I'm sorry to hear that you're a robot. I don't know what drugs you've been around, but I've never heard of a drug that can recreate caring so much about something that you'd literally die for them, but that's how I feel about the people I care about. Lastly, you seem to use the phrase "clinging to false beliefs" a bit. That's fine, we disagree. However, just as there is no physical scientific evidence of God, I'm pretty positive you can't DISPROVE the existence of God. The Big Bang is something that happened, we know that, and we can basically trace time back to the split second after it happened, but what we don't know anything before that. So, we can't scientifically prove, and you can't scientifically disprove. The big bang does not disprove God, neither does evolution, as some seems to think it does. There's no reason these can't be tools used by God in order to create the universe.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

you can't use something written about what happened to any of jesus' contemporaries to prove jesus was god (assuming the man jesus even existed). what was written about them is just as likely to be fable or embellished history as anything written about jesus.and even if true it proves nothing - followers of modern cults with contemporary god-heads have been frequently willing to die for their beliefs.

Ok, but why has Christianity stuck around for 2K years. Why arent' there millions of world wide worshipers of Paul Bunyon? My only real point is that I believe something significant happened 2 thousand years ago. Christianity distinguishes itself in several ways and in ways in which in can't be simply tossed away as a fable. In the cases off the top of my head, most of the cults died with the death of their god-head. In any case they arent' as long lasting and widespread as Christianity. What is your explanation of Christianity's staying power?

[WrongWay 0]

Lastly, you seem to use the phrase "clinging to false beliefs" a bit. That's fine, we disagree. However, just as there is no physical scientific evidence of God, I'm pretty positive you can't DISPROVE the existence of God.

I can't disprove the existance of the Invisable Pink Unicorn either.... I'm pretty sure there is not fire breathing dragon living in my garage, but I can't disprove it. Are there fish that can speak English? I'm not aware of any. I have no reason to believe that any exist... Yet, I can't disprove the existance of them.I can do a pretty good job of disproving the Bible as "truth". The very first page describes the earth as a circle, drawn on the face of the deep, meaning flat. This circle is then placed upon a foundation. It then describes God covering the disk with a dome, trapping water above this dome. Then, lights are attached to the inside of the dome (sun, moon, stars). Later portions of the Bible describe the sky as "made firm" and "poured out like a mirror, then made hard". Other sections mentions the windows of heavin (the dome) being opend to allow the water above the sky dome to fall to the earth as rain. If the Bible is the source for the description of God, and the Bible is flawed, then its description of God must also be flawed. Even if a God does exist, it can't be the God exactly as described in the Bible. Therefore, at least 1 version of God does not exist.Any "figurative interpritation" of the Bible results in a figurative interpratation of God, not an two of which can actually exist since 1 version precludes all others. Therefor, God is HIGHLY unlikely to exist as you preceive him/her/it/them......

[WrongWay 0]

What is your explanation of Christianity's staying power?

Hinduism has been around for 4K years. Buddhism has been around for 2500 years. Judiaism at least 3500 years. Taoism somewhere around 2500 years. Islam only 1400 years, but has no sign of dieing out anytime soon.The gods of classic Egypt were worshipped for atleast 4000 years before they slipped into the realm of "myth". The Greek gods were worshipped for something like 2500 years.staying power is not proof of anything.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Hinduism has been around for 4K years. Buddhism has been around for 2500 years. Judiaism at least 3500 years. Taoism somewhere around 2500 years. Islam only 1400 years, but has no sign of dieing out anytime soon.The gods of classic Egypt were worshipped for atleast 4000 years before they slipped into the realm of "myth". The Greek gods were worshipped for something like 2500 years.staying power is not proof of anything.

Thought we were talking about God. Did Budda claim to be God, did Muhommad? Many of the ancient gods that were worshipped for thousands of years are no more because of Christianity. Rome went from worshipping thousands of gods to overwhelmingly Christian in a very short period of time. I wasn't saying staying power alone is proof of anything. I asked him to explain why he thought Christianity has had such a staying power. I guess I should have also asked, what happened to cause such a fickle population as those in the Roman empire to convert from worshiping thousands of gods to 1 God so suddenly.

[WrongWay 0]

Did Budda claim to be God, did Muhommad?

Funny, I thought we were tralking about false beliefs and how they can be held for thousands of years without making them "Truth".

Many of the ancient gods that were worshipped for thousands of years are no more because of Christianity. Rome went from worshipping thousands of gods to overwhelmingly Christian in a very short period of time.

Because it was a mythology that preached love and understanding and forgiveness and the value of the common man at a time that most people received nothing but slavery at the point of a sword. Later, it was twisted into the religion of oppression, taken into the hand of the sword weilder as a way to justify their position of dominance over the masses....yet, it somehow made people content to be slaves.... Something about the power of self and group hypnosis to make you feel happy despite sucky conditions.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Funny, I thought we were tralking about false beliefs and how they can be held for thousands of years without making them "Truth".Because it was a mythology that preached love and understanding and forgiveness and the value of the common man at a time that most people received nothing but slavery at the point of a sword. Later, it was twisted into the religion of oppression, taken into the hand of the sword weilder as a way to justify their position of dominance over the masses....yet, it somehow made people content to be slaves.... Something about the power of self and group hypnosis to make you feel happy despite sucky conditions.

I DEMAND TO KNOW HOW TO SPLIT QUOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I guess your right, we have traveled down so many paths, I don't even know which thread I am now posting in. I think is important to understand, that most anything of value is counterfitted. In many of these threads I see actions of counterfitters attributed to the real Christianity.

[crowTrobot 2]

I guess I should have also asked, what happened to cause such a fickle population as those in the Roman empire to convert from worshiping thousands of gods to 1 God so suddenly.

you mean when catholicism took over the roman government and other religions became illegal?

[WrongWay 0]

In many of these threads I see actions of counterfitters attributed to the real Christianity.

Scottsman Fallacy....... All Christianity is Christianity. There is no sub-part of Christianity that is the "real" Christianity.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

you mean when catholicism took over the roman government and other religions became illegal?

Actually, I am talking about Rome about 90 years after Christs death. I will have to look it up to get closer number. Anyway, that must have been a powerfull cult to be able to overthrow the Roman Government.

Scottsman Fallacy....... All Christianity is Christianity. There is no sub-part of Christianity that is the "real" Christianity.

Now that is just silly. If I rob a bank dressed up like you, did you actually rob the bank.

[WrongWay 0]

Anyway, that must have been a powerfull cult to be able to overthrow the Roman Government.

The Roman Empire gained power through brutality. They took the martial skills of the Greeks, combined this with their own engineering skills and then used brutality to subjegate most of what is now Italy to its will. In doing so, Rome bumped into Carthage, another warlike nation based in Northern Africa that held Sicely and parts of what is now Spain.Only by reorganizing the army was Rome able to defeat Carthage. Instead of a part-time army paid by the central government, the army became a professional, full-time institution funded by and loyal to the land owners.The resut of the reorganization was that teh Senate lost power and the Empire began. Rich land owners could use the army to conquer neighbors, increasing their personal wealth and holdings.200 years later, and the Roman Empire stretched from Great Britain to the edge of Asia, through Persia, and held much of Northern Africa and the Middle East. It got bigger than it could manage, it ran out of weak neighbors to conquer, it grew increasingly currupt, it tought its military and engineering skills to the conquered people losing its own technological edge, it was beset by invasions from the Mongols, Huns, and other "barbarians".Christianity did not bring down the Roman Empire. Christianity was just the "philosophy on the rise" as the empire collapsed under its own weight. It was the philosophy the leader turned to in hopes of turning the tide of decline... it failed.

Now that is just silly. If I rob a bank dressed up like you, did you actually rob the bank.

No, but a human still robbed the bank.You can pick your particular branch of Christianity and assert it is the branch that is "ture", but you can't pretend all the other branches don't exist, or aren't also Christianity.So, what flavor of Christian are you? Catholic?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

You can pick your particular branch of Christianity and assert it is the branch that is "ture", but you can't pretend all the other branches don't exist, or aren't also Christianity.So, what flavor of Christian are you? Catholic?

There is only one true Christianity, none of the denominations in America are the true Christianity, they are all corrupt to some extent. But there are a set of teachings and doctine that can probably most easily be accessed through the Catholic Church. So I guess I will concede that I don't belong to the "true" Christian Church, but I can (by learning teaching and doctrine of the early church). The only true Christians are those who adhere to the original doctrine and believe in the ressurection of Jesus as the savior of man kind. While many sins have been commited in the name of Christianity, they were committed by imposters, or maybe in some cases, a true Christian who is temporarily misguided, tempted by the evil one.Christ is perfect, Christians are not.

[timwakefield 68]

Thought we were talking about God. Did Budda claim to be God, did Muhommad?

Moot point. Buddhists don't believe in God, but that doesn't make the religion any less valid.

[WrongWay 0]

The only true Christians are those who adhere to the original doctrine and believe in the ressurection of Jesus as the savior of man kind.

So, you believe that heaven is a physical place on top of the sky dome, that Christ was LITERALLY raised up to the top of the sky dome, and that he will return within the lifetime of the original apsotles to lead a rightious army to cleanse the evil from this world?Nice.You so rarely find someone that still believes that heaven is a physical place abve the sky dome and Jesus will be retuning within 50 years of his resurection.

[Loismustdie 0]

So, you believe that heaven is a physical place on top of the sky dome, that Christ was LITERALLY raised up to the top of the sky dome, and that he will return within the lifetime of the original apsotles to lead a rightious army to cleanse the evil from this world?Nice.You so rarely find someone that still believes that heaven is a physical place abve the sky dome and Jesus will be retuning within 50 years of his resurection.

None of that is biblical. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here- you might be taking that which is figurative and making it literal. Wrong Way isn't just a moniker for you, it's a way of life. I have no idea where most of that stuff you said even comes from? Army of the rightouess led by apostles? Huh? Skydome? Where are you getting this? As far as false religion/christianity- it's everywhere, and what they do has nothing to do with God and truth. If one policeman is bad, you cannot blame the rest. Architect, Scientist- man, that really applies. We are supposed to forgive bad science all of the time, why wouldn't this apply to so called chrsitians that aren't doing things correctly?

[timwakefield 68]

So, you believe that heaven is a physical place on top of the sky dome, that Christ was LITERALLY raised up to the top of the sky dome, and that he will return within the lifetime of the original apsotles to lead a rightious army to cleanse the evil from this world?

Looks pretty empty to me...