Getting The Most Out Of A Flopped Set

[Rocketwadster 0]

Alright, apparently you did not take my suggestion.As the TPITW, give me a set of hands here that you would raise preflop in position and then check on the flop when checked to you on this board?

WTF are you talking about. Not once did I claim to be the TPITW. The scare-card ace works both ways, as our opponent called our pre-flop raise but saw us check when an ace showed up (hence it looks like we are scared of it).

If he doesn't have an ace, he has a pocket pair.

Holy phuck batman - what a narrow range you sure have for our limping opponent. Is that due to it being a $30+3 MTT, or do you always assume that anyone who limps from SB when folded to and calls a raise must have a pocket pair or an ace???I'm done.

[zipper 0]

Try Level 3 thinking sometime and see how that works out for you.

Bizzle, what do you think he thinks I have when I check the flop? I do not disagree that he could put me on a monster when I check, but he could also put me on a steal attempt pre flop (remember it was SB vs BB, not me raising from EP), and given the texture of the flop and the generally tight nature of his play he could interpret my check as just plain weakness given the Ace and Queen. He could think that I could easilly put him on an Ace when he called me pre flop and if I was stealing he might think I would CB, thus the check would be confusing to him. Again, I had been fairly agressive, so his checking to me made sense if he had an Ace or nothing. If he had an Ace he might c/r me (great if he did) or if he had nothing he would probably check and fold. Given he led at the turn, I was thinking he put me on a steal or had the Ace and bit on my check and thus the push all-in. Which by the way he called.That was my attempt at level 3 thinking. I need to improve immensely before I try to claim to be even reasonably capable of level 3 thinking. Please help me with your thought process during such a hand.

[therrinn 0]

Holy phuck batman - what a narrow range you sure have for our limping opponent. Is that due to it being a $30+3 MTT, or do you always assume that anyone who limps from SB when folded to and calls a raise must have a pocket pair or an ace???I'm done.

We have a tight villain, who has folded Kx in the sb without even completing, yet here we have him complete and then call a raise knowing he'll be out of position for the rest of the hand. WTF else does he have?

[Rocketwadster 0]

We have a tight villain, who has folded Kx in the sb without even completing, yet here we have him complete and then call a raise knowing he'll be out of position for the rest of the hand. WTF else does he have?

While I agree that he may have those hands you indicated, he also could have some sutied connectors, two face cards, etc. We've seen him show ONE hand to us, which is not a lot to go by. In fact, why would he show us that ONE hand? To set us up later perhaps.

[therrinn 0]

While I agree that he may have those hands you indicated, he also could have some sutied connectors, two face cards, etc. We've seen him show ONE hand to us, which is not a lot to go by. In fact, why would he show us that ONE hand? To set us up later perhaps.

I'm sorry, I'd reply to this, but I need to go find a wall to run into for a couple hours.

[Bizzle 0]

Bizzle, what do you think he thinks I have when I check the flop? I do not disagree that he could put me on a monster when I check, but he could also put me on a steal attempt pre flop (remember it was SB vs BB, not me raising from EP), and given the texture of the flop and the generally tight nature of his play he could interpret my check as just plain weakness given the Ace and Queen. He could think that I could easilly put him on an Ace when he called me pre flop and if I was stealing he might think I would CB, thus the check would be confusing to him. Again, I had been fairly agressive, so his checking to me made sense if he had an Ace or nothing. If he had an Ace he might c/r me (great if he did) or if he had nothing he would probably check and fold. Given he led at the turn, I was thinking he put me on a steal or had the Ace and bit on my check and thus the push all-in. Which by the way he called.That was my attempt at level 3 thinking. I need to improve immensely before I try to claim to be even reasonably capable of level 3 thinking. Please help me with your thought process during such a hand.

Someone who wants to learn! I LOVE IT!This is pretty much all meta-game thinking here. A lot of the time, the person who wins the smaller pots is the person who just goes a little further than the other person with their thinking. Flop comes AQ6 and villian checks to the preflop raiser. This leads me to believe one of two things-villian is either super-strong, and is playing for the check-raise, or is super-weak, and completely missed the flop. Considering that people miss more flops than they hit squarely, I'm pretty much going to bet a flop like this 100% of the time when checked to, as long as I am confident that the villian isn't a psycho and willing to check-raise with a hand like J10o here. In this case, since I will bet any hand that is checked to me, he should be expecting that from me. Thus, if I check when I flop a set (or top 2 or something similiar) he has a much much easier time defining my hand on the turn if I check the flop and he bets out on the turn and I raise, because now you have limited your hand ranges here to a hand that completely missed on the flop or a hand that hit the flop incredibly good.I'm not advocating continuation betting every flop in position regardless of stack size and board texture, but if the SB limps and you raise, and the flop comes down like this and he checks, checking behind, whether with a hand like this or a hand that completely and utterly missed, defines your hand range incredibly well and gives him all of the information that he needs to be able to either win the pot outright on the turn or lose the minimum.

[gobears 0]

While I agree that he may have those hands you indicated, he also could have some sutied connectors, two face cards, etc. We've seen him show ONE hand to us, which is not a lot to go by. In fact, why would he show us that ONE hand? To set us up later perhaps.

Bet the flop - standard CB in your opponent's eyes as it looks very suspicious if you don't bet that flop after raising preflop. If he has an ace, then he'll C/R and we might get all his chips. Suited connector - calling a raise OOP HU..maybe...but what is he going to improve to on the turn. We're not going to get any more chips from him.Two face cards - KJ/K10/J10...let's give villain a free look at a gut shot so that he not only catches up but passes us...

[zipper 0]

Thanks Bizzle. And yes I want/need to learn more. I agree with everything you said and I think I understand it. Again, desiring to max value is why I went for the check-check. Given I was trying to max value, the reraise all-in was to try to have him think I was stealing with nothing and was just trying to push him off the hand. YES, I know I am over thinking here. I also did not want to allow a cheap look at the third club just in case he had suited connectors and the free turn gave him some HOPE. If I just call, that is way too cheap of a look and almost any other raise would pot commit him anyway. So the push I thought showed the most weakness given check check on the turn.Give me your thoughts to this thinking and I am more than willing to get bashed for it if it is constructive and helps me to continue to learn/grow as a player.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Bet the flop - standard CB in your opponent's eyes as it looks very suspicious if you don't bet that flop after raising preflop. If he has an ace, then he'll C/R and we might get all his chips. Suited connector - calling a raise OOP HU..maybe...but what is he going to improve to on the turn. We're not going to get any more chips from him.Two face cards - KJ/K10/J10...let's give villain a free look at a gut shot so that he not only catches up but passes us...

Good points, shown in a manner much more condusive to obtaining a great discussion than something like "okay mr TTPITWYBFI" or whatever else you are too lazy to type out. I'll definately consider betting out here in this scenario a little more now.

[shpaget 0]

Bet the flop - standard CB in your opponent's eyes as it looks very suspicious if you don't bet that flop after raising preflop. If he has an ace, then he'll C/R and we might get all his chips.

That entirely depends on your previous play.If you always, or almost always, cb then yes, a cb is in order to avoid suspicion, and you simply hope he's slowplaying an ace.If you never, or rarely, or even only 50% of the time, cb then checking here doesn't look nearly as suspicious.I have no problem how the OP played this flop, but his turn raise needed to be much smaller to have any chance of being called.Because at that point it doesn't matter if he puts you on a big hand or not...either he has some type of hand (Ax, and then could be convinced you have a weaker ace), or he has some type of draw, for which you need to give him an attractive, though incorrect, price to call....anything else he's folding regardless.

[Bizzle 0]

Thanks Bizzle. And yes I want/need to learn more. I agree with everything you said and I think I understand it. Again, desiring to max value is why I went for the check-check. Given I was trying to max value, the reraise all-in was to try to have him think I was stealing with nothing and was just trying to push him off the hand. YES, I know I am over thinking here. I also did not want to allow a cheap look at the third club just in case he had suited connectors and the free turn gave him some HOPE. If I just call, that is way too cheap of a look and almost any other raise would pot commit him anyway. So the push I thought showed the most weakness given check check on the turn.Give me your thoughts to this thinking and I am more than willing to get bashed for it if it is constructive and helps me to continue to learn/grow as a player.

I'm not saying you took a terrible line throughout the hand, and while you did get a little lucky here by defining your hand completely and him still paying you off, it's not an unreasonable line to take. We had a "keys to winning tournaments" thread a while back and one of the main ones was getting paid off on your big hands, so it is quite feasible that you could make a one-time play like this and get paid in order to advance deeper in the tournament.Another thing to think about here is if the villian thinks you are on a steal, and you check the flop when checked to, would you really jam over the top of his bet with a hand like J10? I just feel that by checking here you make your hand very easily defineable and a simple 2/3 pot bet on the turn by the villian will tell him whether you missed horribly or if you flopped a monster.

[mk 11]

Good points, shown in a manner much more condusive to obtaining a great discussion than something like "okay mr TTPITWYBFI" or whatever else you are too lazy to type out. I'll definately consider betting out here in this scenario a little more now.

put him on a range of hands and decide how likely it is that he will improve from a hand that won't give you action on the flop to a hand that will give you action on the turn.

If he has an ace, then he'll C/R and we might get all his chips. Suited connector - calling a raise OOP HU..maybe...but what is he going to improve to on the turn. We're not going to get any more chips from him. Two face cards - KJ/K10/J10...let's give villain a free look at a gut shot so that he not only catches up but passes us...

I was hoping you would do what gobears did. That may have ended the discussion.

[Actuary 3]

I have no problem how the OP played this flop, but his turn raise needed to be much smaller to have any chance of being called.

it was called.I love the push.Players will call with much less than you think and evetually look you up.I can also see not pushing, but we make a lot if called and kinda get people edgy with overbets here.

[zipper 0]

sorry posted twice and removed

[Mashchit 0]

That entirely depends on your previous play.If you always, or almost always, cb then yes, a cb is in order to avoid suspicion, and you simply hope he's slowplaying an ace.If you never, or rarely, or even only 50% of the time, cb then checking here doesn't look nearly as suspicious.I have no problem how the OP played this flop, but his turn raise needed to be much smaller to have any chance of being called.Because at that point it doesn't matter if he puts you on a big hand or not...either he has some type of hand (Ax, and then could be convinced you have a weaker ace), or he has some type of draw, for which you need to give him an attractive, though incorrect, price to call....anything else he's folding regardless.

I think that this is spot on, as is bizzle's advice. My experience is that the best way of trapping and extracting value is to not deviate from your usual style. If you've been cb'ing in these sort of situations and then suddenly don't then that should be blatantly obvious to a thinking, observant player. Your betting is not telling a consistent and believable storoy and it will put them on their guard and narrow down your range significantly, as per bizzle's comments.You've also got to do what's expected of you in more general terms. You're the chip leader, you've raised, you're heads up, you're in position and scare cards have flopped. Don't disappoint them - follow the script and do a continuation bet like the chip leader should do in that position.If you're going up the levels in thinking you need to have an idea what level they were thinking at. Do you have any feel for that?

[zipper 0]

I think that this is spot on, as is bizzle's advice. My experience is that the best way of trapping and extracting value is to not deviate from your usual style. If you've been cb'ing in these sort of situations and then suddenly don't then that should be blatantly obvious to a thinking, observant player. Your betting is not telling a consistent and believable storoy and it will put them on their guard and narrow down your range significantly, as per bizzle's comments.You've also got to do what's expected of you in more general terms. You're the chip leader, you've raised, you're heads up, you're in position and scare cards have flopped. Don't disappoint them - follow the script and do a continuation bet like the chip leader should do in that position.If you're going up the levels in thinking you need to have an idea what level they were thinking at. Do you have any feel for that?

My feel for his play/thinking is that he was like many in these tourneys. He hopes to get lucky and beyond that he understands his hand and not much more (based in part on folding K-9 off in the SB when folded to him). Thus, I did not and still do not think he thinks about my hand as being strong when I checked to him. This was further evidenced by his call.

[Mashchit 0]

My feel for his play/thinking is that he was like many in these tourneys. He hopes to get lucky and beyond that he understands his hand and not much more (based in part on folding K-9 off in the SB when folded to him). Thus, I did not and still do not think he thinks about my hand as being strong when I checked to him. This was further evidenced by his call.

I guess that depends what he called with!I'm intrigued by his play, both in terms of him showing the K9 before (why?) and how he played this hand.Given that you think he's a straightforward playing only his cards kind of player, what hand do you put him on when he checks the flop and then bets the turn? And yes, I've read your level 3 thinking post, but that seems to assume much more knowledge and thought on his behalf than you give him credit for above.

[zipper 0]

I guess that depends what he called with!I'm intrigued by his play, both in terms of him showing the K9 before (why?) and how he played this hand.Given that you think he's a straightforward playing only his cards kind of player, what hand do you put him on when he checks the flop and then bets the turn? And yes, I've read your level 3 thinking post, but that seems to assume much more knowledge and thought on his behalf than you give him credit for above.

I think he thinks I am playing any two cards, and definitely not an ace or queen. I believed he had an ace probably with an 8 or higher kicker, possibly two pair. I do not think he thinks about my thoughts on his cards.I was suprised by his call and very suprised by his showing 10-J of clubs leaving him only a flush draw and gutshot strt draw.

[shpaget 0]

I was suprised by his call and very suprised by his showing 10-J of clubs leaving him only a flush draw and gutshot strt draw.

I'm not - guys like this are a dime a dozen...in my Internet notes on online players one of more common notations is "will call any bet with any draw"...this guy applies...."odds shmods...I got a flush draw and I'm gonna hit it."

[Actuary 3]

if he does not put u on an Ace/Q then he has Pair Outs! Pair Outs I tell you!we have players here that call all in pushes with overs on the RIVER..and they had lots of chips left. And they are good players...just making a read that villan was bluffing.btw you would not believe how tight weak I am on B on B battles.I might fold K9 off too.

[Bizzle 0]

we have players here that call all in pushes with overs on the RIVER..and they had lots of chips left. And they are good players...just making a read that villan was bluffing.

Don't worry, I wasn't the hero on this hand.

[Actuary 3]

Don't worry, I wasn't the hero on this hand.

lolB)hey, I wasn't going to name names because I can't begin to speak intelligently for much beyong 30+3's!but I guess it was pretty clear the post referenced.

[Mashchit 0]

I think he thinks I am playing any two cards, and definitely not an ace or queen. I believed he had an ace probably with an 8 or higher kicker, possibly two pair. I do not think he thinks about my thoughts on his cards.I was suprised by his call and very suprised by his showing 10-J of clubs leaving him only a flush draw and gutshot strt draw.

Your view on his thought processes doesn't seem consistent.No matter. I guess you thought that he was trapping with his Ace? Or perhaps being tight and seeing what you did? I'm not surprised by his call. Hell, he probably thought he had 13 outs and maybe even 17... as the others have said, you see calls much, much worse than this routinely in online events. After all, he might have drawn to a flush four times before and missed all four times, so his flush has to hit this time - it's the law of averages, innit.

[Actuary 3]

so his flush has to hit this time - it's the law of averages, innit.

yeah..it's why I push a ton in these things early on with strong made hands..calls are incredible

[zipper 0]

Thanks for all the discussion. I really appreciate it.For the record, I was not stating that my play was the best way to get the most out of a flopped set. In fact, he caught his flush on the river. That to me is not relevant. My goal was to learn how most of you view this situation and the responses were great and gave me a lot to think about.