Kk Utg+1

[shpaget 0]

Relatively early in a home game tourney....20 people, 4 pay.I've been dicking around a bit - I can tend to not take these ones seriously, but I use it as a psychological practice - I play several hands blind to force me to read the players...on hands where I've looked at my cards I bet before the flop is shown, stuff like that...though I'm wrong on occassions, I've become adept, with this group of players, at putting them on two exact cards a statitiscially ridiculous number of times.Start with 4000 chips, I'm down to about 2500.Blinds are 100/200. Fourth blind level - blinds going up every 20 minutes.utg callsI raise to 800.CO calls (really loose, real fish, could have anything, likes to play flops so he can bluff)Button chip leader raises all-in.Folds to me.Button is loose and can make a lot of squirrelly calls with strange hands. But he also raises strong when he's strong - his mindset is "I have you beat and you are going to pay the maximum price to outdraw me". He rarely, if ever, raises speculative hands pf....he'll call a lot of them, but not raise.He will bluff the turn or river with absolute air though, sometimes a little too much - he rarely bluffs large on the flop and I've never seen him bluff pf.My assessment is, he does this with AK or AA or KK...I'm not sure about QQ...he calls with JJ...not 100% sure about AQs or worse, but think he'd call rather than raise.I'm gonna get 2.7:1 assuming CO folds (and I'm sure he will)He's got 8 ways to have AK, 6 ways to have AA, 6 to have QQ (and at this time I really don't know if he raises or not with QQ in this situation).Let us say you KNOW he only does this with AK or AA.Is it still correct to call here, considering all the dead money in the pot?I called based on the assessment that he will do this with AA, AK, KK and QQ.If I eliminate QQ from his range is it correct to fold?Trust me, I'm of certain of my read as it is possible...my only uncertainty is QQ.If my read is wrong, it's wrong...I re-evaluate and learn, but I'm trying to figure out if, based on my two read options, where a call is correct and where it's not.I believe I'm 3:1 against AA,AK, meaning the price is bad, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

[gregdon8 0]

dont overthink this. as chip leader i think u must open up the range of hands he makes this play with, since he is not putting his tourney life on the line.seems like a squeeze play from a chip leader who is maximizing pressure on the smaller stacks....pretty standard.I am calling before the action gets back to me

[Actuary 3]

what a lot of crap for an easy call.and:Start with 4000 chips, I'm down to about 2500.Blinds are 100/200. Fourth blind level - blinds going up every 20 minutes.utg callsI raise to 800.you raise 1/3 of your stack and now consider folding to a re-raise?Loose players... rightt?Just PUSH preflopMy god if folding is even near your mind on this..why the hell are you not pushing preflop. Only reason I don't push (if I didn't) is to ENTICE this all in move.

[gobears 0]

If you put him on AA/KK/AK then you are 47%+ to win according to PokerStove.Adding in your chip stack situation and the pot odds makes this an extremely easy call.

[shpaget 0]

what a lot of crap for an easy call.and:Start with 4000 chips, I'm down to about 2500.Blinds are 100/200. Fourth blind level - blinds going up every 20 minutes.utg callsI raise to 800.you raise 1/3 of your stack and now consider folding to a re-raise?Loose players... rightt?Just PUSH preflopMy god if folding is even near your mind on this..why the hell are you not pushing preflop. Only reason I don't push (if I didn't) is to ENTICE this all in move.

That's exactly why I did that bet, and if anyone else at the table pushed all-in I'd have called in a heartbeat and never thought twice about it because their range would be much wider...but I know this player and I know what he'll do....he's not sophisticated enough to understand or make a squeeze play, nor does he ever really mix up his preflop play.My question isn't a situational problem or a strategy problem...it's simply a math problem.I have 1700 to call into a 4600 pot...I put him on AA, AK, KK, QQ...is a call correct? I'm pretty sure it is.If I remove QQ from that range is a call still correct? It really is quite simple, and that's the only question I have about this hand, so if you can't answer the question, don't.I'm not interested in your opinions on how much of my stack is already committed, or your opinions on what you or anyone else think his range is...I know what his range is, you don't.Stop playing hold'em like a ****ing robot...I'm not multitabling against 20 other anonymous robots who've all memorized HOH - I'm in a situation where I have a read on a live player that I know like the back of my hand, and I'm going with it.I'm simply fuzzy on the math, both in relation to the current pot, and overall tourney equity.

If you put him on AA/KK/AK then you are 47%+ to win according to PokerStove.Adding in your chip stack situation and the pot odds makes this an extremely easy call.

Thank you - that's exactly what I needed...I honestly thought it wouldn't be that high.Thanks again.

[Actuary 3]

you don't "know."quit trying to be The Amazing Kreskin and getting 500 chips the large majority of times is good.You're not against AA enough to worry.If you DON'T call you have an M of 6.Of course you know I KNOW the math as far as a CASH GAME call hear assuming your reads are 100% on..I can run it w/ or w/o QQ in the mix... but for Tourney.. it's going to be a call everytime.

[Scott3705 0]

Thank you - that's exactly what I needed...I honestly thought it wouldn't be that high.Thanks again.

I'm sorta suprised by that too. That seems high. that seems a touch lower than what I would have expected with QQ in the mix.

[gobears 0]

I'm sorta suprised by that too. That seems high. that seems a touch lower than what I would have expected with QQ in the mix.

I ran it again just to be sure - adding in the AK possibility is obviously what makes the % so high for KK.If I add in just QQ for villian's range then you become a 57% favorite to win the hand

[shpaget 0]

you don't "know."quit trying to be The Amazing Kreskin and getting 500 chips the large majority of times is good.You're not against AA enough to worry.If you DON'T call you have an M of 6.Of course you know I KNOW the math as far as a CASH GAME call hear assuming your reads are 100% on..I can run it w/ or w/o QQ in the mix... but for Tourney.. it's going to be a call everytime.

Kreskin's got nothing on me.

[blakheart 3]

Sorry I am late to this thread, but button's range has got to be larger due to your image. If you have been donking around he is certainly not going to assume you are as strong as you are. Your play earlier set this up perfectly. I put chip leader on a range of AJ suited or better any PP's down to 9. And since your "book" on him is that he dosen't likely bluff, I think PP's are more likely and you beat most of 'em.

[shpaget 0]

Sorry I am late to this thread, but button's range has got to be larger due to your image. If you have been donking around he is certainly not going to assume you are as strong as you are. Your play earlier set this up perfectly. I put chip leader on a range of AJ suited or better any PP's down to 9. And since your "book" on him is that he dosen't likely bluff, I think PP's are more likely and you beat most of 'em.

I would take this into consideration with many other players in this particular game (which is another reason I call any other player at the table in a heartbeat, I know my image is working for me this hand), or, when I play at the b&m poker room where I'm likely to run into at least 2nd level thinking, but this guy's world is the two cards in his hand, and that is it...he would make that bet if me, The Rock of Gibraltar, or Gus Hansen were sitting in my seat.

[Actuary 3]

fwiw,I find it pointlessly frustrating to post/read post that have 100% Accurate Reads implied.imo, it's best to leave out all the game detail and anecdotes and just present this as a straight forward odds question.it's not practical to think al the replies are going to except your 100% stone cold read and ignore the game and see thru that you really only want an odds question answered.just trying to help.

[shpaget 0]

fwiw,I find it pointlessly frustrating to post/read post that have 100% Accurate Reads implied.imo, it's best to leave out all the game detail and anecdotes and just present this as a straight forward odds question.it's not practical to think al the replies are going to except your 100% stone cold read and ignore the game and see thru that you really only want an odds question answered.just trying to help.

fwiw,I find it pointlessly frustrating to ask a question and have people answer everything but the question I ask.In most situations, I would normally just post it as an odds-based question, but, being that I held KK, I was quite certain that, without some attempt to explain myself, I would run into the standard "never fold KK preflop" response, and still not get my question answered.So, I HOPED the "If my read is right" angle would get my question answered.Still - I apologize for my outburst to you as I always respect your insight here.Anyway, I thought for about a minute, called, the CO folded and I said "show me your rockets"...and he did.And I went home and drank heavily, so all was not lost.

[Actuary 3]

you have a lot in there that distracts a busy person from the direct question you want.In a later post you present it more succintly.

[RDog 0]

It sounds to me like you are more concerned with making reads and "big laydowns" than maximizing your profit. How many times did someone push you out on one of your reads when they had Q's and you had K's?So 1 of 3 things:1. Your home game has the worst poker players ever.2. You are the best poker player ever.3. You are often laying down the best hand.I'll give you 2 guesses.

[shpaget 0]

It sounds to me like you are more concerned with making reads and "big laydowns" than maximizing your profit. How many times did someone push you out on one of your reads when they had Q's and you had K's?So 1 of 3 things:1. Your home game has the worst poker players ever.2. You are the best poker player ever.3. You are often laying down the best hand.I'll give you 2 guesses.

Number 4 - on occasion I have reason to believe I'm beat though the odds say I'm not, and on those occasions I endeavor to make the laydown...sometimes I do and sometimes I don't....OR, conversely, on occasion I have reason to believe I'm ahead though the odds say I'm not, and on those occasions I endeavor to call, and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.Since I've never folded KK pf the answer to your question is none.I use my reads to maximize my profits...considering the success I have in B&M poker room tourneys I have a hard time justifying changing that approach.

[gregdon8 0]

as another tip....If you are 100% certain that u read him as aces as you say you were(clearly not during the hand as you would have folded.hindsight is 20/20)...then next time post the question and say that he flipped his cards up for you before you made the decision.....that would be a stupid question right???So, you were not certain of anything, you had a feeling, and since you are not certain than the math that has been applied is correct and should be taken into consideration and you should have called.Also, for the record I have never read one page of HOH

[shpaget 0]

as another tip....If you are 100% certain that u read him as aces as you say you were(clearly not during the hand as you would have folded.hindsight is 20/20)...then next time post the question and say that he flipped his cards up for you before you made the decision.....that would be a stupid question right???So, you were not certain of anything, you had a feeling, and since you are not certain than the math that has been applied is correct and should be taken into consideration and you should have called.Also, for the record I have never read one page of HOH

Uhhhh....if I was 100% certain he had AA I would have folded.If you look again you would see that I NEVER said I was certain he had aces...I was certain he had AA or AK, and possibly QQ, along with the unlikely other two kings...I was certain his range was AA,KK,AK and less certain about QQ....how does that translate to "I knew he had aces"? If I KNEW he had aces I would have folded.And so my question was specifically assigned to that range of hands, or a second range of hands where I remove QQ.

[Smasharoo 0]

Let us say you KNOW he only does this with AK or AA.Let's say you grossly overestimate your reads. Should you make a stupid fold?good luck.

[shpaget 0]

Let us say you KNOW he only does this with AK or AA.Let's say you grossly overestimate your reads. Should you make a stupid fold?good luck.

Only you would know the answer to that, Godfather.

[Jdr999 0]

When you have a short stack, this is an easy call. If they have Aces, you go broke.However the more chips you have in relation to the blinds, the easier, and correct, it is to fold pre-flop. If you had 25,000 in chips, and the other player had 40,000, it's an easy fold if the action goes you raise 800, they re-raise 2000, you re-raise 8000, and they push.

[Shizzmoney 0]

As Harrington says, "I'm not good enough to fold Kings, and neither are you". Plus, most of the time against the type of player you are describing, you are up against AQ, AK, QQ, JJ, or even AJ.....especially if he is a big stack.If it's AA, just not your tournament.Beat 'em in the pot and find out.