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Its 40-80 blinds in a MTT. After you post in the BB you have 815 in your stack and are dealt Q9off. Three players limp, small blind completes, and you check. The Flop is: Q :club: 7 :D 4 :D There is 400 in the pot. The small blind checks, what do you do? I open pushed because if i make a bet at this pot its going to be 300-400 with a straight and flush draw on board, then i would have commited myself to the pot with half my stack in there. I cant see myself getting away from top pair-decent kicker with 10x the BB in this situation. Ok with this play?

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I'd probably check and then push, hoping someone fires at it. Gotta build a stack, not getting many chances better than this one, might as well get more chips in the pot before you push.

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The only reason I wouldnt check reraise is that i have no fold equity. If someone takes a stab at this pot and i check raise then they are priced into calling with any almost any pair any draw. But I very well could get called by one of the limpers with something like 98s with them thinking "why would he over bet the pot with a better hand than my top pair?"

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The only reason I wouldnt check reraise is that i have no fold equity. If someone takes a stab at this pot and i check raise then they are priced into calling with any almost any pair any draw. But I very well could get called by one of the limpers with something like 98s with them thinking "why would he over bet the pot with a better hand than my top pair?"
A 200 bet (a likely bet) and a raise to 800 does that. Although is that what you are looking for? A check raise still puts all your chips in the middle which the open push also does, but puts more total chips in the pot. Anyone that would call your check raise would also call your open push. Anyone that is looking to call your all in after he bets because it gives him equity you want calling anyway because you are ahead.
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Since you're putting all your chips into the pot; you could go for the check raise as someone might bluff at the pot.Other option is to bet 200 or so and invite folks to call who have draws - then push on the turn.Open pushing results in only the players who have you beat calling you unless they would peg that as a steal from your earlier play. It depends on how they perceive you and what the bet means.Hmmmm - guess that I'm saying it's read dependent but with no reads, I would lead for 200 as I don't really want to give a free card since there is a flush draw out there.

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I open pushyeah, so what if the ones that bet/call a c/r push are behind..I want them to fold..I like 400 chips.of course w/o more detail on stack and payouts..who knows
You don't like calls when you are ahead? Wow, that makes no sense. All open pushing does is get less chips in your stack if you are ahead. If you are behind they are calling either way, why not let them put some chips in the pot first?
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You don't like calls when you are ahead? Wow, that makes no sense. All open pushing does is get less chips in your stack if you are ahead. If you are behind they are calling either way, why not let them put some chips in the pot first?
depends how far ahead.I'd rather take 400 uncontested than 600 with a 35% chance of being outdrawn.
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depends how far ahead.I'd rather take 400 uncontested than 600 with a 35% chance of being outdrawn.
It's not 600 if he calls you. He has to put 800 more in the pot to see your cards, not 200. Or 600 uncontested if he folds when you move in.
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It's not 600 if he calls you. He has to put 800 more in the pot to see your cards, not 200. Or 600 uncontested if he folds when you move in.
ok..i should not play and post, i mes them both up..400 potwe push... no calls.... we win 400, our stack = 1200we push..say a 40% chaser calls.. 400 + Callers 800 = 1200 + our 800 = 200060% of the time we win the pot : 60% * 2000 = 1200..our stack 40% of the time we lose: and are outso if a caller has a 40% chance, it seems neutral cash wise.but in tourney: If someone says: 100% of the time you can go from 800 to 1200 or you can gamble and have 2000 60% of the time or 0 40%, I'd take the 1200 guaranteed. If we get called in one place, in either case, we're risking 800 to win 1200.The only diff in the c/r is the occasional hand that folds after putting in 200I'd prefer folding the hands that have 40% chance against us, than enticing them to put in 200 first and thus making them more likely to see it to showdown.
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Different strategies I guess. My goal is to accumulate chips to make it to the final table, not just stick around. Personally, I want a call here with second pair or 2 overs. I barely started posting in strat yesterday and I can already see my strategy is considerably more aggressive than the regulars here.

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I barely started posting in strat yesterday and I can already see my strategy is considerably more aggressive than the regulars here.Yeah checking this flop is super agressive. This is an easy open push. C/Ring is FPS, not agression.good luck.

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You don't like calls when you are ahead? Wow, that makes no sense. All open pushing does is get less chips in your stack if you are ahead. If you are behind they are calling either way, why not let them put some chips in the pot first?
Before I posted, I wanted to see if some one said what I was going to, and there it is. Open pushing here is vastly inferior to a C/R if we're worried about people getting pot stuck w/ a draw, which we LOVE. Danger is that it goes check, check.. but that's something entirely different.
I barely started posting in strat yesterday and I can already see my strategy is considerably more aggressive than the regulars here.Yeah checking this flop is super agressive. This is an easy open push. C/Ring is FPS, not agression.good luck.
Agreed if we can expect this to go check check often. if we expect a bet 75%+ C/Ring is much better than open pushing into this pot. Question is can we really expect a bet often in an unraised pot here?
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Open pushing here is vastly inferior to a C/R if we're worried about people getting pot stuck w/ a draw, which we LOVE.No, we LOVE picking it up now. We're not unhappy to get called with 65% equity, but it's worse than winning it now.good luck.Agreed if we can expect this to go check check often. if we expect a bet 75%+ C/Ring is much better than open pushing into this pot.No, because the change in our inflection point isn't big enough to want to be called by anything compared to winning it now. Not to mention we have to fold if a weaker hand shoves after we check. (Or we should at least).good luck.

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Open pushing here is vastly inferior to a C/R if we're worried about people getting pot stuck w/ a draw, which we LOVE.No, we LOVE picking it up now. We're not unhappy to get called with 65% equity, but it's worse than winning it now.good luck.Agreed if we can expect this to go check check often. if we expect a bet 75%+ C/Ring is much better than open pushing into this pot.No, because the change in our inflection point isn't big enough to want to be called by anything compared to winning it now. Not to mention we have to fold if a weaker hand shoves after we check. (Or we should at least).good luck.
Nope, Open push should be getting called by those big drawing hands. Those big draws that are still about 50% to win. Only hand that we have 65% equity against here is 56o. Which won't call the push, you're right. In C/Ring, we find hands like 88 57, 56. All hands that we want to get all our money in the pot against. (We want a flush draw calling here if we have QQ here right?, so why would we not want a pair and a ISD calling?)Pushing is going to win 400 if we haven't found anyone w/ anything or find a pair a smaller pair.Say for the wide variety of hands that may bet here that are 25%-35% against us that will be forced to call our min C/R.We lose 815 30% of the timeWe win 1215 70% of the time. EV=606.6606.6>400Pushing is going to lose 815 50% of the time we're up aginast a big drawand win 1215 50% of the time we're up against a big draw.Same payout against the C/R.Likewiese Pushing is going to be the same as a C/R against a dominated queen.
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open push has a better chance of picking up the pot, if we assume any reasonable opponents who will have worse odds than with a c/r - push.no amount of EV calcualtions will convince me that Open Pushing is not the best. Maybe I'd entertain those equaotions in a cash game, but here, 50% chip increase is critical. 50% + 200 while increaseing the chance of busting, is not worth it.Scott, you really think being called by hands that are behind is always a good thing? Regardless of you stack / blinds / pot size? I hope not as you chose to quote that piece earlier

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open push has a better chance of picking up the pot, if we assume any reasonable opponents who will have worse odds than with a c/r - push.no amount of EV calcualtions will convince me that Open Pushing is not the best. Maybe I'd entertain those equaotions in a cash game, but here, 50% chip increase is critical. 50% + 200 while increaseing the chance of busting, is not worth it.Scott, you really think being called by hands that are behind is always a good thing? Regardless of you stack / blinds / pot size? I hope not as you chose to quote that piece earlier
I think it's always a good thing. It's not always what I want to happen. In this situation, it is. I'd like to hear your thoughts why you don't.
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I like this discussion. I tend to agree with Actuary. I like the open push all in because if we do have the best hand we are guaranteed to win the 400 with no callers. While it's true that we will only get called by a hand that beats our top pair/mid kicker, the idea of check raising seems to have more negatives, due to the fact that it can either:A) go check check behind us, giving a free card at no cost, or... B:) did anyone consider that a bet behind us after we check our hand could be from a hand that beats us anyways..? Like a Q10 or QJ? What difference would it make by check raising with the worst hand as opposed to just pushing initially? That is to say, if we can't get away from our hand? We are in a tight spot here. While it's true we will get hands like mid pair to possibly bet when it's checked to them, I think the risk vs. reward is not worth it. Take the pot a.s.a.p.... and go from there with more chips then you started with before the hand developed.

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I think it's always a good thing. It's not always what I want to happen. In this situation, it is. I'd like to hear your thoughts why you don't.
well, at it's simplist example sometimes villain has enough equity such that w make more when they fold, than when they contest the pot.But we know that, and surely, you want a 35% draw to fold if we move all in for 300 into a 1000 pot, right?But even the case where we bet 800 into a 500 pot.. and offer less than 2:1 to a 35% draw, yeah we have more chips in the long run if he calls ( 65% of 500+800 is > 100% of 500 ); however, depending on stage / stacks / blinds wouldn't you agree that risknig your saving your tourney life, even if it means sacrificing some chipEV is better Tourney EV?I think I'm stating pretty basic sense; but I don't have lots of real experience.Have 400+ SnG's in last 2 months, so I"m getting there :club:
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Nope, Open push should be getting called by those big drawing hands. Those big draws that are still about 50% to win.Why wouldn't we open push then if we agree 50% hands are calling when there's any chance they might check it through.good luck

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well, at it's simplist example sometimes villain has enough equity such that w make more when they fold, than when they contest the pot.But we know that, and surely, you want a 35% draw to fold if we move all in for 300 into a 1000 pot, right?But even the case where we bet 800 into a 500 pot.. and offer less than 2:1 to a 35% draw, yeah we have mnore chips in the long run if he calls ( 65% of 500+800 is > 100% of 500 ); however, depending on stage / stacks / lbinds wouldn't you agree that risknig your saving your tourney life, even if it means sacrificing some chipEV is better Tourney EV?I think I'm stating pretty basic sense; but I don't have lots of real experience.Have 400+ SnG's in last 2 months, so I"m getting there :club:
This is where I need to have more info than what we have to be convinced. We're down to ten bets already. So maybe we're either early in and we've taken a small shot. In which case, i personally would rather gamble in this spot and try to accumulate chips. I don't know... I'm trying to think of a situation where I would want to make a play for the pot immediately, but the chip stack and blinds don't justify it. I know what you're saying and I will agree w/ it in a number of situations. i'm having a hard time fabricating one right here though.
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Nope, Open push should be getting called by those big drawing hands. Those big draws that are still about 50% to win.Why wouldn't we open push then if we agree 50% hands are calling when there's any chance they might check it through.good luck
Okay, the fact that it "might" check through has me rethinking slightly. Still not sure I am completely convinced but that does scare me a bit. I still don't think either play is bad. FPS, LOL, I had to look that one up.Wait, Smash comments on Tournament play?
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This is where I need to have more info than what we have to be convinced. We're down to ten bets already. So maybe we're either early in and we've taken a small shot. In which case, i personally would rather gamble in this spot and try to accumulate chips. I don't know... I'm trying to think of a situation where I would want to make a play for the pot immediately, but the chip stack and blinds don't justify it. I know what you're saying and I will agree w/ it in a number of situations. i'm having a hard time fabricating one right here though.How about when it's 4 handed, you're first to act and have no idea what to do if there are overcalls to a bet after you check. Or if it gets checked around. Or, oh just ****ing trust me. If it's close AT ALL, if you acknowledge that there isn't some GIGANTIC edge to not open pushing then it clearly makes a lot more sense to just move in here.I don't think there's any advantage at all to checking planing to C/R, but assuming there were and it was marginal, the number of times it gets checked around or bluffed at by junk and you fold makes open pushing better. good luck.

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