Flopped The Nuts And Folded.

[LadyGrey 6]

What if this is your first trip to the WSOP? You are in day 1 session 1 and the room is full of donks.

Wow, I can't believe you went there.

[Cue 0]

Result-based thinking. Stop that. Stop that now. Oh, and the odds didn't work out as they should. If that was the case, then 40% of the pot or so should have went to the guy with the flush draw. It didn't.

There are adjustments that are made for ring games versus freeze out tourney's versus re-buy tourneys. That is what I was detailing...not results.And no, you are wrong. the flush draw will just win x% of the time.

[XX44466XX 0]

OP, go out back and put yourself out of all our misery you spineless dog. What kind of flop were you looking for anyway?No, seriously, good fold.Dumbass.So what was the winning hand? You never told us...You might not want to after all this...

[zimmer4141 0]

There are adjustments that are made for ring games versus freeze out tourney's versus re-buy tourneys. That is what I was detailing...not results.And no, you are wrong. the flush draw will just win x% of the time.

I don't like how you bring up other situations that this hand could be played in while discussing this individual hand. The situation that this hand is played in makes it an easy call. Were this the first hand of the WSOP, I'd consider folding, but probably still wouldn't.

[LadyGrey 6]

OP, go out back and put yourself out of all our misery you spineless dog. What kind of flop were you looking for anyway?

He was obviously looking for a flop of 7s5s4s. You can't fault him for that.

[Cue 0]

After reading 9 pages of this thread (and it grew three pages while I caught up and probably more while writing this) I have to say that your original question 'did I make a mistake in a tourney to fold with this hand' was answered many times over. You apparently don't like the answers that most have given (yes, it was a mistake) and a few have either agreed with your fold or said it wasn't the worst thing you could do. But what I don't understand is why did you post and ask this question if when people take the time to answer you disagree with them?Just seems a little odd...I want to post a situation and ask for your OPINIONS, but when you give them I am not going to accept them unless they agree with what I did.I too play in a lot of tourneys and the best I can do is get my money in with the best odds/hand. That is what you could have done. You have to realize that even with the best hand it will be cracked a lot of the time...that is the luck factor after the math is taken into consideration. But never the less, it is the way it happens. I would agree that if you are going to flop the current nuts and not make the call with the better odds then you shouldn't play tournament poker because it is a type of game that luck and math both need to work in your favor to win. All you can control is that the math applied is correct. If you don't put it in with the math in your favor, you don't give luck (or odds) the opportunity to win for you. Every tournament winner has to have both things going for them (math and luck) and allow their hands the opportunity to hold up with the best of it.I will end with this...if you aren't interested in what the opinions are of those who post their answers to your question, then don't ask the question.

You have a strange idea of what opinions and are and how they should be taken.Did you see the Davinci code? What is your opinion? Because I ask do I have to agree?Do you agree with the Iraq war? What is your opinion? Do I have to agree?I seek opinion to consider them and challenge my own thoughts on the subject. it is a process of learning. And you don't only learn if you simply agree like a sheep. I have never, NOT ONCE, disrespected anyones opinion who thinks I played it wrong. I have weighed all their words carefully. And maybe in a week or month or years time I come to the conclusion that they were right and I was wrong. But learning is a cumulative process. SOmetimes you need to challenge and re-challenge some opinions one might hold.My view has certainly been challenged here and I hear everyone loud and clear and that gives me pause. But given that same hand played face up in that same situation I still fold. I did not spend 2.5 hours building my stack piece by piece to give it up to a coin flip I am going to lose 60% of the time. Not willingly unless I am short stacked.Maybe that is my poker error but I am loath to jump into coin flips where they are not even 50% in my favour, especially if the result is improve or bust.

[tskillz187 0]

I don't like how you bring up other situations that this hand could be played in while discussing this individual hand. The situation that this hand is played in makes it an easy call. Were this the first hand of the WSOP, I'd consider folding, but probably still wouldn't.

Maybe you'd consider it, then you'd look at the board, realize you were getting 2:1 on your money and that you have the nuts and you would call. Especially because you don't know what they have!!!! And yes OP stop with ridiculous circumstances of "it's an okay fold when" stuff. First hand of any tourney I have no reads on the players anyways, easy call.

[XX44466XX 0]

He was obviously looking for a flop of 7s5s4s. You can't fault him for that.

I had the 5 of spades. Move on.

[strategy 4]

.

[tskillz187 0]

I think the way you view tourneys is incorrect. It seems like you want to accumulate chips with 0 risk. In theory that is great, but it is not practical. We all want to get our hands on more chips and never risk going broke, but it is not that easy. When I flop the nuts, what I think is "how can I get all of their chips in the middle?", I think you think "How can I get the most chips in the middle with 0 risk?". Maybe I'm wrong, but there are points in tourneys where you should be taking risks for all of your chips and this is one of them.

[XX44466XX 0]

What, are they holding the WSOP in Mexico now?

No, that's how Cue refers to his home game.

[Cue 0]

To the people seeking coinflips because Matros wrote an article about it on Cardplayer (I think it was Matros), does not make it correct. A lot of well respected professionals do not agree with his train of thought. Also, Zimmer already brought up the point that just because it is +EV does not mean it is the best decision, which I completely agree with.To OP, why did you show your fold to the table? That was for ego stroking. Why the hell would you want them to think you could fold the nuts? How did you not proceed to get ran over? I'll play with you at Fallsview, it is the softest game on the planet, I'm quite sure by playing very weak tight you are coming ahead a winner. Again Zimmer made best point with folding, there is no way to know that they have the flush draw and the set. It is VERY possible for them to both have sets and for you to make a horrible fold. It is much better to make a marginal call than to make a disastrous fold and there is no way you could know the exact cards they were holding. In fact, you didnt, the other guy was holding Kx of spades, so he must not have been all as tight as you thought. At least you are thinking very hard about your game and techniques, but I think you are off here. There is no way im folding the nuts with 20 people left and only 6 getting paid. This would be an acceptable fold if playing Omaha. Hope you get through all the negativity and actually take the constructive criticism to try and tweak your play a little.

thank you for your constructive criticisms.And yes I have read many pro's who avoid coin flips in tourneys and prefer to play many smaller pots. That is definately my style.I take your criticism to heart about showing the straight. it is correct. Showing was a mistake.In my calculation I could make a disastrous call (and be out) but not a disastrous fold as I was still in and in healthy shape. I had calculated that if I had to be wrong then I would rather be wrong and still in the game then wrong and out.If you live in TO and ever want to go out ot Fallsview i drive out their 4 times a week and play $5/$5 or $5/$10 and I would be happy to have someone share the ride. I also play in a little club in TO up to 3 times a week and they have about 40-50 regulars on those nights but are looking for more.

[XX44466XX 0]

thank you for your constructive criticisms.And yes I have read many pro's who avoid coin flips in tourneys and prefer to play many smaller pots. That is definately my style.I take your criticism to heart about showing the straight. it is correct. Showing was a mistake.In my calculation I could make a disastrous call (and be out) but not a disastrous fold as I was still in and in healthy shape. I had calculated that if I had to be wrong then I would rather be wrong and still in the game then wrong and out.If you live in TO and ever want to go out ot Fallsview i drive out their 4 times a week and play $5/$5 or $5/$10 and I would be happy to have someone share the ride. I also play in a little club in TO up to 3 times a week and they have about 40-50 regulars on those nights but are looking for more.

TP/MM(Overused but always funny)

[Cue 0]

OP, go out back and put yourself out of all our misery you spineless dog. What kind of flop were you looking for anyway?No, seriously, good fold.Dumbass.So what was the winning hand? You never told us...You might not want to after all this...

I did mention that the guy caught his boat.And when people realize that you can catch what you are looking for and still fold they would have made a big break through.You can be on an opened ended straight draw and hit it but the card that brings it also brings a flush and you can fold. it is not always about what you hit but also about what you put your opponents on. What is his draw. What is made. I can't believe the number of people who keep raising this issue as if only the cards in their hands matter.

[tskillz187 0]

thank you for your constructive criticisms.And yes I have read many pro's who avoid coin flips in tourneys and prefer to play many smaller pots. That is definately my style.I take your criticism to heart about showing the straight. it is correct. Showing was a mistake.In my calculation I could make a disastrous call (and be out) but not a disastrous fold as I was still in and in healthy shape. I had calculated that if I had to be wrong then I would rather be wrong and still in the game then wrong and out.If you live in TO and ever want to go out ot Fallsview i drive out their 4 times a week and play $5/$5 or $5/$10 and I would be happy to have someone share the ride. I also play in a little club in TO up to 3 times a week and they have about 40-50 regulars on those nights but are looking for more.

Wow you play a lot of freakin poker. I live about 1.5-2 hours from Fallsview, and only play live about twice a month, splitting between Seneca and Fallsview. Next time I plan to play at Fallsview I'll shoot you a PM and see if you will be around, we can play some 5/5 or something. But I'm out of this thread now.

[Cue 0]

I don't like how you bring up other situations that this hand could be played in while discussing this individual hand. The situation that this hand is played in makes it an easy call. Were this the first hand of the WSOP, I'd consider folding, but probably still wouldn't.

Other people keep throwing scenerios at me so I throw some back.My point is that people on this forum like to treat everything like an absolute. NEVER...ALWAYS...ETC.And the truth is it depends on situation...on read.You yourself admit you might think differently in the first hand of the WSOP. WHY? Because you consider the situation, the timing, your read and the cards.If the situation was like everyone said, if it was absolute, then I could never offer up any scenerio where you would consider a fold, EVER. Even if you were on the bubble for 5 payouts over $1 Million dollars or other. the play would always be the same. Fact is situations do factor in.

I think the way you view tourneys is incorrect. It seems like you want to accumulate chips with 0 risk. In theory that is great, but it is not practical. We all want to get our hands on more chips and never risk going broke, but it is not that easy. When I flop the nuts, what I think is "how can I get all of their chips in the middle?", I think you think "How can I get the most chips in the middle with 0 risk?". Maybe I'm wrong, but there are points in tourneys where you should be taking risks for all of your chips and this is one of them.

You are wrong. I am not looking for zero risk. Not even close. However If I read I am 60% to lose the hand and I trust my read and know being right means 60% of the time I do bust then that is a time when I choose not to risk.And no that does not mean I do not think that my read cannot be wrong. Of course my read can be wrong and in that case I might have been 60 or more % to win and I MIGHT have won a huge pot. But I had a read...I trusted it...and I went with it.

[Nichols 0]

You asked in your original post:My question is...is that a good fold in general when in a tourney???I said earlier that you don't appear to want to hear the answer of 'no' because you have argued the point with many different scenarios. You then said what about 'opinions' means you can't discuss it in answer to my earlier posting.I was specifically responding to your original question of "in general"... and not to your results oriented scenario.You asked for people to give their opinion to your question and that is what they have done-like it or not. But please stop being so defensive when they give them.In general folding when you have the best of it is wrong! Are there times that you might consider it, sure there are some very unique circumstances that might apply, but, in general it is a bad fold in answer to your question.Good luck.

[MasterLJ 0]

I will speak for myself but I get a general consensus that people are more sickened by your play because you used the results to justify the laydown.I would stand behind your fold/reasoning (although I'd never do it) had you said, "I don't feel like I have more than 40-50% equity here and am still in decent shape if I lay it down." You said this much much later in the thread after people did the math for you... but again, your reasoning for the fold was in the results.

[Cue 0]

Wow you play a lot of freakin poker. I live about 1.5-2 hours from Fallsview, and only play live about twice a month, splitting between Seneca and Fallsview. Next time I plan to play at Fallsview I'll shoot you a PM and see if you will be around, we can play some 5/5 or something. But I'm out of this thread now.

I have never played Seneca but plan to sometime. I have gradually increased my play at Fallsview (actually started at Casino Niagara) as I have been able to displace my regular income. I play pretty much Mon - Thurs days there and Mon, Wed, and Fri nights at the underground club.I work for myself otherwise so this is not a problem.and before the flames start...yes it is the Fallsview game that is weak and not my playing that allows me to make money there. I know all the regulars, how they bet and what they bet to about as much certainty as you get in poker. But no the situation I described in the original post was at the underground where I am still relatively new.

You asked in your original post:My question is...is that a good fold in general when in a tourney???I said earlier that you don't appear to want to hear the answer of 'no' because you have argued the point with many different scenarios. You then said what about 'opinions' means you can't discuss it in answer to my earlier posting.I was specifically responding to your original question of "in general"... and not to your results oriented scenario.You asked for people to give their opinion to your question and that is what they have done-like it or not. But please stop being so defensive when they give them.In general folding when you have the best of it is wrong! Are there times that you might consider it, sure there are some very unique circumstances that might apply, but, in general it is a bad fold in answer to your question.Good luck.

I was never defensive when someone commented and was civil and polite. I got my back up when they suggested what I did was wrong PERIOD and they threw in a bunch of expletives to sugar coat it.Go back and read the thread again and you will see that is true.I neither like nor dislike other peoples opinions on the play. I consider them ALL. I review them and I learn what I can from them. Not every opinion offered is right and therefore you should never just accept them as if they are.there is nothing wrong with challenging someone who offers an opinion to justify it and prove it where possible. In fact I would advise that you do.

[gobears 0]

And yes I have read many pro's who avoid coin flips in tourneys and prefer to play many smaller pots. That is definately my style.In my calculation I could make a disastrous call (and be out) but not a disastrous fold as I was still in and in healthy shape. I had calculated that if I had to be wrong then I would rather be wrong and still in the game then wrong and out.

I read thru this whole thread1. The cards weren't face up2. 20 players left, 6 payIf you fold this, you're just playing scared and it really was a disastrous fold Against the worst possible draws, you'd win 38% of the time, you'd be much better than that ifyou ran this simulation multiple times as sometimes your opponents would have TPTK, an overpair or even air.It would have been better if both opponents had shown air and A high won it - I wonder if you would have posted this hand then?And I'd like you to find one name pro who would fold in this situation.

[cdipierr 0]

Ok, Cue, serious question, at what point does it become ok to call?Let's say your read had you in a situation where you're 49% to win the pot. Is that still a fold?Now, how about 51%? Sure you're the favorite, but you're still out nearly half the time.Does that become a call? Using what you've talked about in this thread, I don't see how you can ever call unless you're something like 90% to win, but if that's the case, you can't play 86o to start with.So where's the cutoff? 60% 70% 80%?

[WonderfulSplash 0]

And yes I have read many pro's who avoid coin flips in tourneys and prefer to play many smaller pots. That is definately my style.

Stop using this terrible argument to back up your fold. A LARGE REASON PROS PLAY SMALL POTS IS SO THEY CAN PLAY BIG POTS WHEN THEY HAVE MOSTER HANDS, LIKE THE NUTS!! It makes you sound stubborn and inexperienced, especially when you consider that there is not a single well respected pro on earth who would ever make this fold (in this situation, not talking about satellites).

[ricker 0]

Read right = 1 - the odds are that I do not win this hand and am 60% to lose and they hit2 - they miss and I winRead wrong =1 - they have lesser draws (even top pair can improve to beat me) and hit to beat me2- they have lesser draws and miss I do not willingly go in at 60% to lose for ALL my chips at that point in the tourney.

I'm tired of you constantly telling people it's correct to fold because you're 60% to lose. This is honestly the most bassackwards way to look at percentages when you're in a three or more way situation. You're 39% to WIN this pot, and 61% to lose. Fine...But take a look at the OTHER TWO PLAYERS. Set = 65% to LOSE and NFD = 75% to LOSE. That adds up to....oh my god...201%...I dunno what kind of poker you're playing, but I've never heard of any where the percentages adds up to over 100% Mathmatically, it's impossible.You take the edges where you have them You're 39% to win here. That's about all I can say. It sucks to have to get into these situations, but hey that's poker, and even worse, that's what happens when you play 8 6 off out of position.

[Vick12 0]

I read thru this whole thread1. The cards weren't face up2. 20 players left, 6 payIf you fold this, you're just playing scared and it really was a disastrous fold Against the worst possible draws, you'd win 38% of the time, you'd be much better than that ifyou ran this simulation multiple times as sometimes your opponents would have TPTK, an overpair or even air.It would have been better if both opponents had shown air and A high won it - I wonder if you would have posted this hand then?And I'd like you to find one name pro who would fold in this situation.

QFTI said I wasn't gonna respond in this thread agin, but alas I have... OP you are right...poker is a game that is completely situational. Forget every other scenario on planet earth, mars, or wherever...IN THIS SITUATION you made the WRONG move.ORYOU are right and every other poster (many of whom are pro level players...fyi...not me OBV but others) is wrong.As Smash would say....Good Luck!!!! (Cuz if u aren't willing to learn from others....u will need a TON of it!)

[dapokerbum 0]

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long...