Easy Fold Against Tighty-wighty Or Call Down?

[Rocketwadster 0]

Villain has a VP$IP% of 10.13 after 79 hands, AND has an aggression factor of 4.5, with a VP$IP% from SB of 11.11%.FullTiltPoker Limit Hold'em Ring Game$0.50/$18 playersStack Sizes:UTG: $11.60UTG+1: $4.45MP1: $62.25Hero: $20.15CO: $15.00Button: $28.25SB: $34.50BB: $19.60Preflop: (8 players) Hero is MP2 with Tc Ad1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.Flop: [3c] [9h] [Ac] (7 SB) (3 players)SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero callsThought about folding right here against those numbers with my ace-medium. Turn: [4d] (5.5 BB) (2 players)SB bets, Hero callsRiver: [6c] (7.5 BB) (2 players)SB bets, Hero callsFinal Pot: 9.5 BBI think I should have folded the check-raised flop...

[Zach6668 513]

I wouldn't fold to the c/r. If I was going to fold it would be after turn, since we usually have enough outs to see the turn.If his AF is so small that he wouldn't do this with less than AQ, then I can fold the turn, but I usually call down.- ZachEDIT - with the villain's AF of 4.5, this is an easy call down.

[pokerplayer24 0]

I take 2 lines here.I either 3-bet the flop fold the turn UI if capped. If just called I bet/fold the turn and check behind the river UI. This charges flush draws the max while getting us to the river for cheaply.OrI fold the turn UIAs played you gained no information, aren't charging a flush draw and its just blah.

[Roark_8 0]

Is everyone raising PF here? I'm not. Maybe if I'm opening, but with 1 limper I'm calling. Please explain if this is a leak.

[cdddc75 0]

Three betting the flop is very important here. A cap from SB says we're screwed, while a call says he's probably on a flush draw.

[Zach6668 513]

Is everyone raising PF here? I'm not. Maybe if I'm opening, but with 1 limper I'm calling. Please explain if this is a leak.

Raising is more fun

[Roark_8 0]

Raising is more fun

Point taken. I'll raise KJ in that spot for that very reason, but find myself getting hosed when I push ATo too much.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Point taken. I'll raise KJ in that spot for that very reason, but find myself getting hosed when I push ATo too much.

Clarify what you intention is when you raise with the KJ (Sklansky says there are only 5 reasons (if memory serves) for raising, and it may help you to see why you should also be raising with A T.

[Zach6668 513]

ATo and KJo are close either way. I tend to raise AT more than I raise KJ though. I tend to fold KJo early on more than I do AT.If you can play well enough after the flop, then you can play either of these hands for a raise, IMO.In this spot, I can see a raise as a better play because we are buying the button very often, getting it heads up very often, and taking the lead.- Zach

[Roark_8 0]

ATo and KJo are close either way. I tend to raise AT more than I raise KJ though. I tend to fold KJo early on more than I do AT.If you can play well enough after the flop, then you can play either of these hands for a raise, IMO.In this spot, I can see a raise as a better play because we are buying the button very often, getting it heads up very often, and taking the lead.- Zach

This is my line of thinking on KJo at least. A guy on here once made a big stink about how its weak to not raise KJo, so I started doing it and it worked. I think I have a harder time getting off of TPGK with AT than I do KJ, which makes AT for me unprofitable enough to not come in for a raise.

[cdddc75 0]

ATo and KJo are close either way. I tend to raise AT more than I raise KJ though. I tend to fold KJo early on more than I do AT.If you can play well enough after the flop, then you can play either of these hands for a raise, IMO.In this spot, I can see a raise as a better play because we are buying the button very often, getting it heads up very often, and taking the lead.- Zach

With one limper in and at MP2, I'm raising KJo almost always here.

[Actuary 3]

I fold turn UII don't 3-bet flop.we're against a rock who, unless he has Kc + Qc/Jc has us drawing to 3 outs or less. I severely discount the flush draw here.Zach: 4.5 AF is nothing when your VPiP = 10%

[Rocketwadster 0]

Can't recall if I put the results in there for the curious (don't feel like scrolling though either to check):Opponent shows Kc Qc.Certainly not what I expected with those numbers...

[Actuary 3]

we're against a rock who, unless he has Kc + Qc/Jc has us drawing to 3 outs or less.

BAM!Certainly not what I expected with those numbers...you don't have enough hands to discount this as a solid possibility.But, I still fold the turn

[Rocketwadster 0]

Well, based on the numbers, you are saying to fold the turn. I ended up being ahead at that point, so maybe I should have raised at some point? I personally don't think a raise is good there, and definately think I should have folded at some point, regardless of the actual cards he held (most likely the turn). Pokertracker says I need 7 outs in order to call his turn bet, but since I was actually leading there, it is an easy call according to them. This is the stuff that gets me so frustrated and confused with hold'em...

[Actuary 3]

yes, put him on a RANGE.include Kc Qc/Jc in that range.But also all the other hands, like AJ.and Sets. and other stuff.So, while I could say "if he has this, we are ahead..but otherwise drawing dead or to 3 outs" .. doesn't mean I should've continued when I find out what he had afterwards.you always confuse me as you speak as if results matter.

[Rocketwadster 0]

yes, put him on a RANGE.include Kc Qc/Jc in that range.But also all the other hands, like AJ.and Sets. and other stuff.So, while I could say "if he has this, we are ahead..but otherwise drawing dead or to 3 outs" .. doesn't mean I should've continued when I find out what he had afterwards.you always confuse me as you speak as if results matter.

im not TRYING to use the results, im just saying that his range apparantly should have included the clubs (like you indicated), so if we do include those types of hands, is it or is it not a call down/raise on the turn there (or even on the flop)?

[Actuary 3]

depends.consider all possible holdingsassign weights (probabilities) to themconsider all possible actions on the flop and his responsesconsider all the flop combinations and actions, and his re-vised weighted holdings, then act consider all actions on the turn...anticipating all possible river cards and villains revised holdings....that's all!:Dyes, the wider his range, the more I like a flop raise, and even wider... call down to showdown.but not just because of Kc - Qc/Jc... But it's perfectly legit for someone to see < 100 hands on his stats and put him on a wide enough range to pop the flop for example. Just not me.

[antistuff 0]

Is everyone raising PF here? I'm not. Maybe if I'm opening, but with 1 limper I'm calling. Please explain if this is a leak.

Raising preflop in close situations like this is more a matter of how you like to play.With 1 limper I'de be more inclined to raise especially if that limper sucked and I had mostly tight players still to act.

[Rocketwadster 0]

My normal reasons for raising hands like that is to try to buy the button AND/OR narrow the field (SB and BB may not decide to play to my raise).