LongLiveYorke 38 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 They worship the creation rather than the creator. Anyone know what scripture that is?The Bible...? Link to post Share on other sites
sdnuol 0 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Not baptized, not saved. Not christian, not saved.if he truly loves us all that wouldnt matter would it? Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 if he truly loves us all that wouldnt matter would it?Yeah, but that's not what they would have you believe. Link to post Share on other sites
fckthis 0 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 They worship the creation rather than the creator. Anyone know what scripture that is?Ye, I was going to get into how for thousands of years, this shift was predicted, and of course in the end, we all die. AKA the apocolypse. Seemingly, most prophets have predicted this outcome, as do, at least to my knowledge, religious scriptures as well, like the Quran and Bible. This makes sense for us believers, but seems ludicrous to others. Link to post Share on other sites
sdnuol 0 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Yeah, but that's not what they would have you believe.but its the truth no doubt Link to post Share on other sites
dapokerbum 0 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Being a Christian DOESN"T make you saved. Being baptized DOESN'T make you saved. The only thing that does is Faith that Jesus is who he said he was. Notice the key word here is Faith. I am not asking everybody to believe but that is what it is all about. Just because you go to church every sunday does not make you saved. Faith is the key to it.Now as far as the reason that GOD is so cruel? Here is my theory and that is that GOD made the world and he made us but he let us live by our own decisions and in turn our own consequences. It is not that GOD is cruel it is that the very human nature that we have is cruel. This stems from the very first sin that Adam committed by wanting to be in complete control of himself and not live by the rules that GOD himself had ordained for him. Another thing that was touched on was Why would GOD predetermine that certain souls were going to heaven and certain souls are not. Well my friends that is at the heart of one of my hardest debates with the church and as such haven't been in a while. It is one that scholars have argued over for years. The basic Predetermintation vs predestination. it is a fine line and I wish there were easy examples.just so you know I would consider myself a saved man because I believe that Jesus is who he said he is and did what the Bible says he did. I still have problems with the church as a whole and hope one day all my questions will be answered.Peace Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Faith is the key to it.why do you have faith in jesus and not the easter bunny? repent. Link to post Share on other sites
fckthis 0 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 why do you have faith in jesus and not the easter bunny? repent.Documented evidence Jesus existed. Link to post Share on other sites
LongLiveYorke 38 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 why do you have faith in jesus and not the easter bunny? repent. Documented evidence Jesus existed.I can see where this is going. Link to post Share on other sites
fckthis 0 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I can see where this is going.LOL. Hey Im just saying, its a known fact, that other civilizations has noted that Jesus actually did exist. Im not going to debate the stories/claims concerning him, because that gets us nowhere.Sadly the truth is, I dont get your comment, guessed the meaning, and then wrote a rebuttal. Link to post Share on other sites
dapokerbum 0 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 why do you have faith in jesus and not the easter bunny? repent.Because Jesus died for my sins. The easter bunny only gives me a basket full of candy. What would you rather have. Eternal life or a day of candy.And yes even though i am a believer I still have a sense of humor.Your questions has some merit but not much. The easter bunny is a made up mythological persona given to us by our parents. Yes the same could be said of Jesus but there is so much indirect evidence of Jesus that I personally will believe that over the easter bunny. I understand your logic on this point but if you were to really use that as your basis for not believing in Jesus then I think you need to look a little deeper. I liked the argument for aliens on Mars that would probably hold more water. I actually tend to also believe that there is intelligent life somewhere. Why would we be the elite few? The answer as i always like to say is I don't know. Anyway, I kind of like this debate. It has me thinking about things. FCP is awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Documented evidence Jesus existed.no such thing exists, only references to him written decades after he supposedly lived.I can see where this is going.yup lol Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Your questions has some merit but not much. The easter bunny is a made up mythological persona given to us by our parents. Yes the same could be said of Jesus but there is so much indirect evidence of Jesus that I personally will believe that over the easter bunny.if you are talking about the man jesus, then yes he has it over the easter bunny. if you are talking about jesus the miracle worker and son of god, then he's pretty much on par with the easter bunny. they are both mythical persona given to us by our parents with no evidence whatsoever to support their existence.I understand your logic on this point but if you were to really use that as your basis for not believing in Jesus then I think you need to look a little deeper. I liked the argument for aliens on Mars that would probably hold more water. I actually tend to also believe that there is intelligent life somewhere. Why would we be the elite few? The answer as i always like to say is I don't know.the fact that we exist and that the universe is vast is pretty good evidence that it's possible there is intelligent life elsewhere.the fact that the bible is self-contradictory and illogical, that there is no documentable sign of god or anything else metaphysical going on today, and that the universe appears to be completely mechanical is pretty good evidence that if jesus existed he was just a man with a bunch of myths written about him.intelligent life elsewhere is a lot easier to believe than that jesus was god. Link to post Share on other sites
dna4ever 2 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Interesting story from today. My bosses best friend's 16 year old son died today in a car crash on his way to football practice.The interesting part comes from the fact this was a 'model kid' who was in a fairly prominent local Christian Rock Band. They had their first 'big break' gig tonight at a club where some record producers were going to be in attendance to look at taking the band to the next step.His dad said this morning "Well son, looks like you got your big break afterall and got picked up by the big man himself"Just seems so sad and crazy. Link to post Share on other sites
dapokerbum 0 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 if you are talking about the man jesus, then yes he has it over the easter bunny. if you are talking about jesus the miracle worker and son of god, then he's pretty much on par with the easter bunny. they are both mythical persona given to us by our parents with no evidence whatsoever to support their existence.I guess I am talking about both. To me I say we all know Jesus was a real person. whether or not he worked miracles and was son of God i think is the debate. the fact that we exist and that the universe is vast is pretty good evidence that it's possible there is intelligent life elsewhere.the fact that the bible is self-contradictory and illogical, that there is no documentable sign of god or anything else metaphysical going on today, and that the universe appears to be completely mechanical is pretty good evidence that if jesus existed he was just a man with a bunch of myths written about him.intelligent life elsewhere is a lot easier to believe than that jesus was god.Just out of curiosity can you give me an example of the bible being self contradictory?As for signs of God I am more into the naturistic view of God. I say look at a beautiful Sunset or the wonders of the ocean or the cool pictures of lightning. THat is where i see God.One last thought: I always liked the wind argument. Can you see wind? No you can't but how do you know it's there. The cool breeze that you can feel when it is blowing at your back. That is how God is. You can't see him but you can always feel him some way or another. It is just how you choose to see him that affects the way you think. If you see a child get better from a sickness that was dying when everyone said he can't live. I would say that is a small miracle. Others would say that was the field of medicine scoring big. others would just shrug and let it go. It's all in how you look at life and how you let it effect you. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 ITo me I say we all know Jesus was a real person.no we don't. all we know is that there are indications well after the fact that he was probably a real person. there are no known contemporary references to him.As for signs of God I am more into the naturistic view of God. I say look at a beautiful Sunset or the wonders of the ocean or the cool pictures of lightning. THat is where i see God.yes those things can summon a sense of beauty/order (or whatever) that humans tend to equate with whatever their idea of god is, or whatever else makes them feel loved/fulfilled/secure. maybe the sense of beauty is in us because we are a product of the universe.. and we are god. in any case there are proven mechanical scientific explanations for the "beauty" of sunsets and lightning etc. perceiving nature as beautiful proves nothing about god. if anything the fact that there are numerous widely varying philosophical interpretations of that seems like strong indication that god exists only in the eye of the beholder.Can you see wind?of course. you can't?as for biblical contradictions they've been hashed to death in this forum. just search the other threads, or if you are really interested in the ugly truth its pretty easy to google sites that list them. Link to post Share on other sites
Loismustdie 0 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Interesting story from today. My bosses best friend's 16 year old son died today in a car crash on his way to football practice.The interesting part comes from the fact this was a 'model kid' who was in a fairly prominent local Christian Rock Band. They had their first 'big break' gig tonight at a club where some record producers were going to be in attendance to look at taking the band to the next step.His dad said this morning "Well son, looks like you got your big break afterall and got picked up by the big man himself"Just seems so sad and crazy. That, unfortuantely, is life- it starts, it ends. Link to post Share on other sites
Wingmaster05 0 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 That, unfortuantely, is life- it starts, it ends.I know you know this lois, but the point is that Christians/people-of-religion will look at events that greatly benefit their current situation and say "God did it, it's a miracle!", where as something horrible occurs and it's "life". and for dapokerbum, seeing beauty in life around us does lend some people to see God, but that says nothing on the topic of Jesus as God. Link to post Share on other sites
Loismustdie 0 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 I know you know this lois, but the point is that Christians/people-of-religion will look at events that greatly benefit their current situation and say "God did it, it's a miracle!", where as something horrible occurs and it's "life". and for dapokerbum, seeing beauty in life around us does lend some people to see God, but that says nothing on the topic of Jesus as God. Cannot speak for this family- would not even try too, but I will give you what I know as of now to be true- god allows or doesn't allow things in a christians life, and a christians job is to deal with it, just like anyone else. God is always given the glory, sometimes not right away as in a situation like this where most likely in some way god will be made to blame- do you see what I am saying? It's perspective more than anything else, and sometimes that is hard to maintain, as it will be in this situation, and there are times when faith is put to tests that are only in your darkest dreams and worst fears and THAT is when you find out how much you really love God. To be honest, I am ashamed to say that I have nowhere close to this type of faith, the kind it woud take to rationally deal with this type of tragedy. My heart goes out to this family. Link to post Share on other sites
sdnuol 0 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Eternal life or a day of candy.candy because its a proven fact that i can have that Link to post Share on other sites
Loismustdie 0 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 candy because its a proven fact that i can have that I want candy(bumdiddy bum d bum d bum bum) I want candy. Thanks fellas. Now that crap is stuck in my head. Link to post Share on other sites
dapokerbum 0 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Crow - I really respect your ideas. It is encouraging to see free thinking people in our society. I know this is off the topic but as far as saying that "yes those things can summon a sense of beauty/order (or whatever) that humans tend to equate with whatever their idea of god is, or whatever else makes them feel loved/fulfilled/secure. maybe the sense of beauty is in us because we are a product of the universe.. and we are god. "what would your view of god be. you would say that god is not all powerful because as you see i have no extra powers as i wish i did. Or is it just the mere thought of being god that lends that argument. i don't know that i could ever say that each person is god. I tend to think on a much bigger scale and see the whole universe as huge and unknowing, but there has to be some driving force behind that. whether you want to believe it is just nature or that there is a god or many gods behind that I just think to say that we are god is a little crazy imo. Just wondering if you can clarify that a little more. Mind you I am not calling you crazy i am saying the idea sounds crazy.Also wing you are right the argument doesn't prove that Jesus is indeed God. There really is nothing that can Absolutly prove that Jesus is God. The only thing that comes close is the Bible and if you don't believe that then of course there is no basis. I will go back to what i have said many times before and that is faith. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 what would your view of god bedunno. i'm agnostic Link to post Share on other sites
dapokerbum 0 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 dunno. i'm agnostic Yes but simply stating that gets me no closer to understanding your idea behind your previous statement. You could ask me what do I believe and i would say that I am a believer in Jesus.That doesn't really answer any questions. I have never known any agnostics so i think it would be interesting to hear one's theory on how we could possibly be god. I understand that was not the basis of your argument it however piqued my curiosity as to how that would come about. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 That doesn't really answer any questions. I have never known any agnostics so i think it would be interesting to hear one's theory on how we could possibly be god. I understand that was not the basis of your argument it however piqued my curiosity as to how that would come about.i don't necessarily think we are god. i was just citing other crazy-sounding ideas some people belive, such as "god" is everything in the universe and as (apparently) cognizant/moralistic-trending beings we are the highest part of god - or at least evolving morally to be. there isn't necessarily a supreme intelligence, just a collective whole beyond ourselves that we are part of - which is why we experience the connection with nature that you associate with a higher power. these ideas sort of have their basis more in eastern religions. agnosticism is simply about the worldview that nothing can be known with certainty, so there is no point to fundamental theism of any kind (or for that matter to strong atheism). in other words it's an anti-faith viewpoint. Link to post Share on other sites
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