lesson learned in nl and a lucky 2 outer for me

[jayistheman 0]

other day i was playing a NL 100 table, and this hand came up...i was absulutely shocked at the end of this hand... after about 5 minutes i got up and danced around the room.get AA UTG and open the pot for 4 bucks.folds around to MP player who recently sat down. he smooth calls and i have no read, but something tells me JJ or 10 10.we take a flop heads up, and it comes Q 7 x with 2 hearts.i figure this is a good oppurtunity to overbet and make it look like a steal, so i fire about 15 bucks into the 10 dollar pot.he quickly raises me to $30.now i'm gonna stop and discuss this a bit....this was one of the better plays that anyone has ever made on me. He had QQ. When i overbet, i knew that a set would HAVE TO smooth call in an attempt to trap... at least thats what i thought. Needless to say, i've been playing with too many fish in these games who slowplay everything.when he raised i immediately put him on AQ or JJ... thinking his hand is best. the possibility of a resteal on his part crossed my mind as well.here's where i get stupid.i turn this into a big genital measuring contest and move in. i was honestly decieved by his betting the nuts into me like that, and i figured he was trying to muscle me out.i moved in for 100 or so, and he isntantly called :cry: before the cards were flipped, i knew i was toast.... he shows QQ (the nuts)the A falls on the turn, and i quickly check to see if he has the lady... nope... he has one out!he didnt catch up, and i dragged a monster pot.now, i've been playing NL at these stakes for about a year now (every day almost), and i dont think i've ever made such a misread (pronounced "been completely duped off my ass") in a big pot. i sat there in shock of the fact that some viking (i take pride in my complete ownership of the swedes in the prima games) would play me like that....but... since i am, after all, the man, it all worked out. any thoughts?

[strategy 4]

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[Petoria 0]

I don't like your position, if you check, he probably checks. If he bets, you get into trouble, because you have to raise and then he reraises, would you be able to get away from it, I don't know. I think it is unlikely that heads up like that he would pick up a flush draw, but if you think you have to protect then that's what you've gotta do. I probably would've done the same thing you did, sometimes you're destined to lose and sometimes you're destined to win. This time you're just lucky.

[Kappa1873 0]

I really liked that play by him.Everyone always overestimates check-raising and smooth-calling huge hands.People have become so accustomed to viewing aggression as a sign of weakness, that straightforward play when you have the nuts is a great play.One of the only times I'll slowplay a hand anymore is if I have the stone-cold nuts on the flop, i.e. top boat, quads, nut flush, and am waiting on someone to catch up with me.I've just found that someone almost always thinks I'm weak when I play a strong hand aggressively.With that said, you really can't get away from your aces in that hand. That's probably why you should play limit and curb that variance.

[rollito 0]

if your good enough that with the action in this hand you can put someone on QQ thats pretty impressive.....most people especially good players would have reraised you with qq preflp regardless of your utg raise....i think that even had you lost this hand i don't think anyone could fault you for pushing all in on that flop.....i think you played that hand properly but just have to give the guy with qq credit for first smooth calling preflp and then getting a little lucky and catchin a q on the flop....it was a tricky play on his part that would have been tough for even a pro to read

[jayistheman 0]

thanks for supporting my play.... i felt like i didnt do all that much wrong.. i was just outplayed :? i dont like being outplayed.keep the comments comin... they are good so far.

[strategy 4]

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[strategy 4]

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[jayistheman 0]

yeah... thats part of the reason why i just moved in...its so hard to juggle between fish and legit players anymore...i took notes on him though.... NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE NOT TAKING FEATURE PEOPLE!!!!!!!it has saved me a few times in similar situations

[troutsmart 0]

Hard to get away from that situation. I don't think you did anything wrong for sure.However, I wonder how the player with QQ would have ended up with a different flop of say J 7 X . Do you believe his call preflop was a slowplay or recognition of the fact that you might have had him beat? I agree that his reraise on the flop was a great move, appearing like AQ or such. You could have just have easily outplayed him under different circumstances though.

[jayistheman 0]

Hard to get away from that situation. I don't think you did anything wrong for sure.However, I wonder how the player with QQ would have ended up with a different flop of say J 7 X . Do you believe his call preflop was a slowplay or recognition of the fact that you might have had him beat? I agree that his reraise on the flop was a great move, appearing like AQ or such. You could have just have easily outplayed him under different circumstances though.

good point...id imagine he would have flat called in this situation, because he seemed to be a good player..but i know that because of watching him play for the next few hours on that table.the J high flop might have scared me more because i put him on JJ. either way, the turn was an A and i wasnt getting away from the hand.i could have put him on a flush on the turn, but its hard heads up.... and i still had a board pair draw.

[Blink20 0]

I'll first qualify my response by stating the obvious, I by no means have the right answer or the best opinion, but here's my thoughts.Everyone knows the old saying, you're either going to win a small pot with AA or KK, or lose a big one, in this case, you "lost" a big pot. (lost in the long run, all your money was in with a two out draw) I have been playing 10/25cent no limit like crazy at pokerstars for the past 5 weeks transferring out 300 every week (about 2000 hands a day), so I think I've built up some experience, been playing and studying books the past 2 years. Anyway, back to the hand....Once I hit the flop with AA or KK, you really have to slow down if you don't improve. Although, you don't want that flush draw to get there for free. But you are in a heads up pot, someone who just smooth called you preflop, so I like how you put him on a pocket pair like 10's or Jacks. Not many hands people will just cold call preflop from a utg player, granted the lower limit callers will have a bigger range of hands, but I think people underrate this limit too much. So you get heads up on a flop that doesn't look too scary. This is where I have a problem with your play. I really don't see your reason for overbetting the pot. I know you say that someone who flopped the set will just smooth call, but I really don't aggree with that assumption. I'm of the style of players that is very aggressive, With this type of flop, those Queens aren't going to want to slow down, its a suited flop, you're showing strength, so it is in his best interest to play back at you. I would prefer just putting in little bets on every street leading to the river. You have put him on a hand that is very marginal to outdraw your hand, and if its already there, you are going to be punished.So you take a flop head up with someone you put on a middle pocket pair. I'm sure you would agree he could have whatever other rank of card hit the flop, a 7 or something? I think this is the same instance as playing a hand like J J on a 2 6 8 flop, I hope you're not going to push all in there heads up either, keep the action as low as possible.You also pointed out he may have a hand like A Q which is really about the only hand you can beat. Would an overbet make sense even if he did have A Q? I wouldn't necessarily think so because if that's the hand he has, now there is really nothing he can beat, as I'm sure he's worried about KK or AA from you, maybe he'll hope you have JJ, but there are many ways for him to get away from his hand, if he did cold call with A Q preflop, I'm sure he was looking for the ace, or a flop to give him a more powerful hand then just a trap flop with the Queen high.I think I keep going off on tangents in this response. I think the basic idea is to play your big pairs really hard preflop, and then you really have to slow down on the flops. Sure, you'll have to pay off a set every now and then, but being in that heads up situation, I don't feel you needed to 1) overbet the pot, and 2) push all in. I think it would've been more favorable to go ahead and make some small bets, if he pushes back, you may have to call him, but it may never get to an all in. By acting weaker there, if he has a hand, he'll have to bet little because he wants to get paid off (by little, I don't mean really small bets, I just mean not all in for like 100 on a 5 dollar flop) and by being weak post flop, you're not really worried about getting drawn out on, because you have him on a hand like a JJ or 10 10, where he is a long shot to catch up to you.So, I will end by reiterating the quote everyone knows from Doyle's book. You're either going to win a small pot with AA, or lose a big one. I really like your posting of the hand here, maybe I'll post one of mine someday, I'm open to a lot of critique too :-) Good luck

[jayistheman 0]

well thought out responsei see everything you are saying, and it does make sense..let me explain my overbet a little bit more.in the NL 50 and NL 100 rooms, my bread and butter play has been the overbet. Its just one of my personal preference plays. Granted, this wasnt the best spot for it, i still like to use it alot. i've found that if i am at a table for an hour or so and i take down 2 or 3 pots by overbetting, the fish begin to boil over with curiosity... i eventually start getting called down (and played back at) by very marginal hands. i don't often talk about this strategy because people often criticize it... (more importantly though, its the way that i've managed to make alot of money on these tables). The problem with making the overbet play here was that i was against a legit player who had not seen my previous overbetting shenannigans, thus would be uneffected by it.... i was also coming from a few weeks on the 6 handed tables, where this play is much much better. i do completely understand your point about the small betting, but its just not my style... i risk my stack alot, but i only do it when i'm very confident in my hand... this is one of the few times i can remember being wrong. I feel that he was going to make me pay through the nose regardless of the situation, and i didnt want to make a marginal fold on the turn to his raises. (assuming the turn brought me no A....)this hand was not good for my image at the table though, so i had to stick around and make a few more hundred legitimately throughout the night the only thing it really did for my table presence was that it showed that i won't be played back at in pots when i have the lead in betting..... i didnt get raised unless i was obviously beaten for the rest of the night :-) once again, thanks for the comments

[scweeber 0]

kinda reminds me of the hand between ivey and deeb in the 2003 WSOP... ivey raised the first guy's bet post flop with a set of 7s and deeb moved in behind him w/ KK. when ivey showed him a set deeb said "****! i didn't think he would raise there with a set." deeb then proceeded to hit his two outer as well...

[benhoug 0]

I assume the game was 1/2 blinds. If so, I really don't like your raise to 4 UTG. What that tells me is that you have a monster hand and you want to raise, but you don't want to close everybody out, so you raise the minimum. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think with that kind of raise you're really tipping the strength of your hand.

[jayistheman 0]

I assume the game was 1/2 blinds. If so, I really don't like your raise to 4 UTG. What that tells me is that you have a monster hand and you want to raise, but you don't want to close everybody out, so you raise the minimum. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think with that kind of raise you're really tipping the strength of your hand.

100 NL is .5/1 blinds so i made a 4x raise in first position.... add to the fact that everyone was opening for 3 or 4 all night.you're thinking old party poker standards (which are pretty terrible.. and the reason i didnt play there until it was fixed)a NL game is supposed to have the max buyin as 100x BB

[jayistheman 0]

another issue with what you said...i dont really want people coming into the pot with me when i have AA... especially when im UTG. i think the minimum raise up front is a terrible playthanks for your comments tho :-)

[Blink20 0]

I really like your response Jay, keeping that image as always overbetting is a good strategy, and I'm right there with you along that train of thought at my $25 no limit tables. My general style is playing a measly 20% of flops or so, but I chat up a loose game and when I'm in there, I'm making myself known being very aggressive and firing bullets. So it does make sense that since you are representing that image, you will have people play back at you with less than perfect hands and sometimes you have to go in on a marginal situation to maintain your image. Like Doyle talks about in his no limit section, he flops an open end draw, knows the guy has top pair and that guy plays back at him, Doyle is still moving all in on him because he doesn't want that same guy playing back at him with just Jack high or something along those lines. I think that's what you are somewhat getting at.But this case is a little bit different. It would be much better for you if you had a different sort of hand with some flush outs, or some straight outs. But there is really nothing he can be playing too strong against you that can just beat an overpair. However, I do like the overbetting concept when you have more outs if you are behind, as well as position. Like I said before, I'm not playing a large percentage of flops, but I still get action, because everytime I'm in there, I'm giving action. But, this mostly comes from being in position, I love raising suited cards, any playable hand in the cutoff and the button, but I hate coming in from early position, because you're still going to get callers and they get to act after you each round. This brings me to my point I was really going to make in this response...I really like the obvious play of just calling with AA under the gun in a no limit game. This goes with KK and QQ as well. The reason is pretty standard, what other hands are you going to come in with in such an early position that you want to raise? In my opinion, really none. KQ suited under the gun, you'll probably just want to limp in. A Q offsuit, if you do want in the pot, again just limp in, because most of the time you're not improving on the flop. Ofcourse, any of these hands you can't raise early, you can definitly raise late position. Aces are really hard to play after the flop, especially after you just make a "small" raise preflop. Sure, 5 time the big blind is decent, BUT, your opponent then has position and implied odds on you, its not so much how much the bet is in relation to the blinds, its in relation to your stack. Even if he had 2 2, he's got his chance of hitting his set and breaking you if you push too hard on your overpair, which is why you always have to slow down on teh flop, especially just heads up, because he either got there or he didn't. Long story short, in my opinion, I like just calling with AA under the gun, I do want that raise so then I can put in a big bet, everyone may know my hand, but big deal, I'll take down all the action preflop. If i do get one caller, I'd make sure preflop my raise was big enough that hes not getting his implied odds even if he does hit his set, then i won't mind setting him all in, something along those lines. If no one raises, well, I've got a very powerful hand, but i'm out of position, so I'll see if I can hit something, keep the pot small, and probably take down the pot with the Aces unimproved. I hope exchange more posts with you on no limit because that's all I play right now, about to move up to the 50cent/1 dollar limit, but i'm playing overly cautious with my bankroll, and yeah, this is all I do right now, but $300 a week is better than my recent telemarketing job or anything else I can get since I dropped out from too much partying ;-) .... ..Again, as with any no limit situation ,I don't believe my opinion is necessarily correct, because its all situational, but I do believe you gotta slow down with those overpairs once you get to the flop.

[jayistheman 0]

i often slow down with overpairs on the flop if its multiway...its just really hard to do heads up.i understand everything you are saying, i think its just a style difference... i really appreciate the input though.as for your idea of limping in early position with AA KK and QQ...i've found that in the overly loose games that i play, that if someone limps early, the whole field starts to come in for a large multiway pot... last thing i want with aces.by the time it gets to late position, all kinds of suited rags (very hard to read) are comin along for the ride.i'll raise AA KK QQ in any position... i raise relatively small in early position, because with no limpers... on the button with a premium hand, i like to pump it up high

[Conik 0]

I think there is too much analysis going on here. As one post said,when the table is constantly changing at this level of blinds assume the players are crap unless you have very good reason to do otherwise. In the long run you will be losing money by NOT moving in here.One of the biggest leaks at .5-1 up to 3-6 is winning players not winning enough. They have learnt the basics, read the books and are profitable but pass up way to much money by underbetting/slowplaying when they have a winner against a fish. Because they win the pot and have a winnig ession they fail to analyse their play in this situation, insteadncentrating on pots they lost. The "win small/lose big"with AA and KK is utter bollocks, these will be your biggest money winners against online crap - get your money in on that flop every time unless you know the player well.

[Guest XXEddie]

I might have just calle his minimum raise there, but once the A hits, I woulda bet string considering there are now three hearts

[jayistheman 0]

I might have just calle his minimum raise there, but once the A hits, I woulda bet string considering there are now three hearts

i disagreejust calling his raise here takes me out of the lead in agression.why would i call here? what do i do then if no A falls? after calling his raise on the flop, logic would say to check. am i supposed to fold to his bet then?if so then i might as well fold on the flop, as he showed me that he is not going to slow down at any point in the hand. keep in mind that i didnt want to be *calling* off all of my chips.... betting was a much better option

[Guest XXEddie]

just calling his raise here takes me out of the lead in agression. agression doesnt matter when he has the nutswhy would i call here? because you could very easily be beat herewhat do i do then if no A falls? after calling his raise on the flop, logic would say to check. am i supposed to fold to his bet then? Id bet again, and when he raises the minimum again, fold. the worst hand he could have is AQ

[jayboogie 0]

i dont think it woulda mattered. This was a hand he was going to lose all his chips on, unless you played it like crap. Keep in mind there were 2 hearts on the board, so he was raising to protect his hand. I think you played the hand fine. You probably maximized your profits going all-in on the flop anyways. That Ace of hearts all though it helps you is a scare card for both of you because there's a flush possibility, so going all-in is not automatic anymore for both of you. The raise could have signified a flush draw, AQ, KQ or anything. He only called you pre-flop, not a re-raise, so it's impossible to peg him for QQ.

[Guest XXEddie]

i dont think it woulda mattered.  This was a hand he was going to lose all his chips on, unless you played it like crap.    Keep in mind there were 2 hearts on the board, so he was raising to protect his hand.  I think you played the hand fine.  You probably maximized your profits going all-in on the flop anyways.  That Ace of hearts all though it helps you is a scare card for both of you because there's a flush possibility, so going all-in is not automatic anymore for both of you.  The raise could have signified a flush draw, AQ, KQ or anything.  He only called you pre-flop, not a re-raise, so it's impossible to peg him for QQ.

If you were trying to protect a flush.....why would you raise the minimum, you might as well just give him a free card, something like 3.5-5 x his bet would be protecting a flush draw, if you did have the flush draw, lets do some odds40 dollar pot(roughly)15 to callI little less than 3-1 which is roughly how often youll make the flush, no way the flush draw is folding there