Push Or Fold?

[handsfactor 0]

After the First hour hero has 11.5k (3rd in chips)Villain has 8.1k (top 10 in chips)Blinds are 60-120Hero gets K-Q of diamonds UTG, calls the BBVillain in middle position makes it 540 Flop comes10 (h) - J (d) - 6 (d)Hero checksVillain bets the pot 1260Now what?

[throwemaway 0]

Who cares when you have a signature like that? lol

[shpaget 0]

I'd have probably folded preflop (or at least raised instead of limp/called).The way you played it, check/raise push the flop, you're probably a coin flip to win at this point, but you're also happy to take the pot now.If I diamond comes you're likely not getting much more out of villain....if an Ace or 9 comes, probably little action (unless he has AA - which is very possible).

[gobears 0]

I push here - you most likely have 15 outs twice so you're a favorite to win the hand.Big bet by villain so you probably don't have much fold equity but there's a chance that villain lays down his hand.

[handsfactor 0]

If I diamond comes you're likely not getting much more out of villain....if an Ace or 9 comes, probably little action (unless he has AA - which is very possible).

I pushed.Villain indeed had A-A (both black) so I only had 13 outs. I figured I had some fold equity considering he was in a good chip position and I had him covered. He called, and I missed on both the turn and the river.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Why are you limping with that hand from UTG? Raise or fold.

[rog 0]

Why are you limping with that hand from UTG? Raise or fold.

Word. Hand plays completely differently from there on.

[blakheart 3]

Word. Hand plays completely differently from there on.

Assumming that the villian raises preflop, but he could smooth call. In that case- you are still seeing this flop, which is trouble.I would actually lead at this flop, probably irrelevant, because all the chips are going in the middle even if the cards were face up. But I would raise becuase I do not yet have a hand and I want the fold equity as well.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Word. Hand plays completely differently from there on.

Also, once I have raised it coming in, I would CB this flop (that is assuming villain calls my raise only).

[Smasharoo 0]

Open pushing is better.Result's probably the same, but it's still better for a lot of reasons. good luck.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Open pushing is better.Result's probably the same, but it's still better for a lot of reasons. good luck.

Do you not think it is a bit of overkill to be pushing here? We have over 11K in chips, and the pot is less than 1500...

[Smasharoo 0]

Do you not think it is a bit of overkill to be pushing here? We have over 11K in chips, and the pot is less than 1500...No, and it's not close at all.good luck.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Do you not think it is a bit of overkill to be pushing here? We have over 11K in chips, and the pot is less than 1500...No, and it's not close at all.good luck.

Please elaborate on the purpose of your push there, compared to a CB as I suggested of 3/4's to about pot-size.

[Smasharoo 0]

Please elaborate on the purpose of your push there, compared to a CB as I suggested of 3/4's to about pot-size.Someone should really be paying me for this, but ok.The short version is that we have a coinflipish hand nearly all the time here. We have villian covered. Villian has a lot of chips. Villian is in great shape to go deep if he folds a hand we're 40/60 against. Villian is out if he calls and loses. It's better to win this sized pot with a fold, but if we're not going to get a fold it's better to get all our chips in when we're ussually ahead or slightly behind instead of having to call a lot of chips on the turn which will *ussually* miss us after we've bloated the pot size with K high. When it doesn't miss us, and we hit a draw, it's an obvious draw that villian will have clear visability of and a better chance of folding a second best hand thus making our implied odds substantially less when we call or raise less than all of our chips. Having committed half our stack or whatever out of position and looking at king high on a river here with virtually no fold equity is worse than open pushing with a great deal of fold equity and eleventybillion redraws to the nuts. If we had 8k and villian had 11k it would play diffrently. We do and he does though.good luck.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I like your elaborate answer (you need to do more of those!), but I still have no problem with CB'ing here, and calling/pushing if raised. If our opponent is weak, our pot-sized bet will usually accomplish the same thing as a push (the push may actually work against us (reverse psychology), resulting in hands that would normally fold perhaps calling as we have shown weakness by pushing, which could result in a bad beat). If our opponent is strong, they will usually raise/push us back, which gets the same result as our push.If our opponent flat calls our CB (I would think only a set would just call our bet - hands like aces/two pair would be vulnerable), we can proceed on the turn acccordingly (I don't think its an auto push there UI). We can get away from this hand very easily if UI, as the pot is still fairly small in relation to our stack size, leaving us with plenty of chips.

[Smasharoo 0]

If our opponent is weak, our pot-sized bet will usually accomplish the same thing as a push (the push may actually work against us (reverse psychology), resulting in hands that would normally fold perhaps calling as we have shown weakness by pushing, which could result in a bad beat). If our opponent is strong, they will usually raise/push us back, which gets the same result as our push.No, because the ideal result here is a fold, not getting most of our chips in with a coinflip. Because of the not insubstantial overlay allready offered by the pot, we're rarely in bad shape when calls, but what we want is for him to fold a better hand, espically a slightly better one which he'll have a lot. Bcause of the overlay we also want him to fold hands where he has 40% equity. A lot of players will fold aces here to our open push, but won't to a c/r all in, and they'd be right. See, it's not a mistake for him to raise a hand we're 45/55 against and then all a C/R all in by us. It's not a mistake for him to call a pot sized bet with a hand we're 55/45 with. Almost any hand he has will have substantial equity here. Even though the pot is only 1/8th of our bet or whatever, it's rarely going to be a mistake for him to call and open push and nearly allways a mistake for him to fold to one. Maximising fold equity is key here because we're out of position and we have him covered, *and* importantly, he has a high M giving us a lot more leverage. It's critical to understand the nature of our hand here. We're ~50/50 agains AK and we're ~50/50 against AA, we're ~40/60 to JJ, ~55/45 against KK, ~50/50 against TJ, etc.See what I'm saying? It's like the opposite of a wa/wb, we're almost allways close to tied. Playing this hand 1000 times, our long term EV is going to be effected most by how often we win it because villian folds here. Open pushing gives us the best chance of that. Making the pot larger before we move in, no matter how it happens actually lowers our long term EVgood luck

[throwemaway 0]

If our opponent is weak, our pot-sized bet will usually accomplish the same thing as a push (the push may actually work against us (reverse psychology), resulting in hands that would normally fold perhaps calling as we have shown weakness by pushing, which could result in a bad beat). If our opponent is strong, they will usually raise/push us back, which gets the same result as our push.No, because the ideal result here is a fold, not getting most of our chips in with a coinflip. Because of the not insubstantial overlay allready offered by the pot, we're rarely in bad shape when calls, but what we want is for him to fold a better hand, espically a slightly better one which he'll have a lot. Bcause of the overlay we also want him to fold hands where he has 40% equity. A lot of players will fold aces here to our open push, but won't to a c/r all in, and they'd be right. See, it's not a mistake for him to raise a hand we're 45/55 against and then all a C/R all in by us. It's not a mistake for him to call a pot sized bet with a hand we're 55/45 with. Almost any hand he has will have substantial equity here. Even though the pot is only 1/8th of our bet or whatever, it's rarely going to be a mistake for him to call and open push and nearly allways a mistake for him to fold to one. Maximising fold equity is key here because we're out of position and we have him covered, *and* importantly, he has a high M giving us a lot more leverage. It's critical to understand the nature of our hand here. We're ~50/50 agains AK and we're ~50/50 against AA, we're ~40/60 to JJ, ~55/45 against KK, ~50/50 against TJ, etc.See what I'm saying? It's like the opposite of a wa/wb, we're almost allways close to tied. Playing this hand 1000 times, our long term EV is going to be effected most by how often we win it because villian folds here. Open pushing gives us the best chance of that. Making the pot larger before we move in, no matter how it happens actually lowers our long term EVgood luck

Well done Smash, thanks for clarifying..I'm still not sure if it's the line I would have taken, but it ties a lot of things together

[Rocketwadster 0]

Another excellent lengthy response, which makes a lot of sense.I think the difference in opinions may be solely based on the limits that we play. A $10/$5 buy-in usually plays a lot differently than a $100/$50 buy-in. I am fairly confident that there isn't > 1% of all $5 tourney players I have run across that would fold a hand like A-J, Aces, Kings, Queens, etc. to our push, but am positive that at the higher buy-ins, this may very well be the case.

[Smasharoo 0]

A $10/$5 buy-in usually plays a lot differently than a $100/$50 buy-in. I am fairly confident that there isn't > 1% of all $5 tourney players I have run across that would fold a hand like A-J, Aces, Kings, Queens, etc. to our pushReally? In third place after the first break they're ready to go broke with an overpair instead of folding and being in fourth place?I can understand if they have an average amount of chips, but what your saying implies they're totally unaware of how many chips they have.May be the case, but I'd think people who don't play many tournaments wouldn't be that eager to call alltheir chips when they're sometimes drawing to two outs.good luck.

[throwemaway 0]

A $10/$5 buy-in usually plays a lot differently than a $100/$50 buy-in. I am fairly confident that there isn't > 1% of all $5 tourney players I have run across that would fold a hand like A-J, Aces, Kings, Queens, etc. to our pushReally? In third place after the first break they're ready to go broke with an overpair instead of folding and being in fourth place?I can understand if they have an average amount of chips, but what your saying implies they're totally unaware of how many chips they have.May be the case, but I'd think people who don't play many tournaments wouldn't be that eager to call alltheir chips when they're sometimes drawing to two outs.good luck.

Theres absolutely no way people at the 5-10 dollar tournament level fold AA, KK, or QQ here, especially to an open push...They just wouldn't think someone is going to jam here with a set, why wouldnt they c/r at least or slow play because thats what everyone does when they flop a set?!

[Rocketwadster 0]

A $10/$5 buy-in usually plays a lot differently than a $100/$50 buy-in. I am fairly confident that there isn't > 1% of all $5 tourney players I have run across that would fold a hand like A-J, Aces, Kings, Queens, etc. to our pushReally? In third place after the first break they're ready to go broke with an overpair instead of folding and being in fourth place?I can understand if they have an average amount of chips, but what your saying implies they're totally unaware of how many chips they have.May be the case, but I'd think people who don't play many tournaments wouldn't be that eager to call alltheir chips when they're sometimes drawing to two outs.good luck.

You would be very surprised...he lower buy-ins are chock full of TV viewers who are curious what this poker thingy is all about. The majority have no concept of outs, pot odds, bet/raise sizes etc. Plus, you have to factor in the "it's only $5 mentality".

[Smasharoo 0]

You would be very surprised...he lower buy-ins are chock full of TV viewers who are curious what this poker thingy is all about. The majority have no concept of outs, pot odds, bet/raise sizes etc. Plus, you have to factor in the "it's only $5 mentality".I'll take your word for it. I have played $5 buy ins before, and I don't remember being quite that cray, but then i was busy bubbling out with sets losing to runner runner so I probably wan't paying that much attention. I run worse the lower the buy in is, I swear. I bet I could play 1000 $.10+0s and never cash.good luck.

[Actuary 3]

I'll take your word for it. I have played $5 buy ins before, and I don't remember being quite that cray, but then i was busy bubbling out with sets losing to runner runner so I probably wan't paying that much attention. I run worse the lower the buy in is, I swear. I bet I could play 1000 $.10+0s and never cash.good luck.

your not alone on this.several of us do better in say 20'2 and 30's 50's than the 10's.but maybe it's a focus thing.I don't want to be the first to say I'd rather play against good players :PNonetheless, it's a vlid argument that in tournaments you need some fold equity at key moments. You also need to dodge bad beats long enough to cash. With low limit tourneys, that's a lot to ask for when no one cares about the buy in.I'm certain it does not continue to get easier though as you progress to 100's+

[amarillotg 0]

haven't read replies.i'd fold to the pre-flop raise after limping. with your stack though i would of raised coming in.as played i would probably lead the flop and try to take it down right there. if raised im pushing.