Jam Here Or Play It Safe?

[irishguy 14]

6 handed NL .50/$1Hero: $75.75Villian: $74.00 I've been at the table for about 20 minutes. Villian is aggressive and has been raising a lot of pots from any position. I've had one encounter with him where called off pot sized bets on flop and turn and folded river where any potential draws would've completed. I'm UTG+1 and he's bb.*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to HERO [6 7 ]HERO: raises $2 to $3VILLIAN: calls $2*** FLOP *** [5 8 5 ]VILLIAN: checks HERO: checks *** TURN *** [5 8 5 ] [2 ]VILLIAN: bets $3HERO: calls $3*** RIVER *** [5 8 5 2 ] [4 ]VILLIAN: bets $5HERO: raises $10 to $15VILLIAN: raises $10 to $25HERO: ?

[DonkSlayer 1]

Well, if you were ok raising him on the river, then you're ok with calling the re-raise/pushing. I think you don't raise him here though. If his pocket pair hit the board, you lose. If he has a higher flush, you lose. If he has junk like 8-5 sooted, you lose. Not really enough options to raise this river. If he made an overaggressive play with an overpair, you'll find out and make note of it. A-3 is the only hand he might be willing to reraise you with that you can beat.

[Whiskey16 1]

6 handed NL .50/$1Hero: $75.75Villian: $74.00 I've been at the table for about 20 minutes. Villian is aggressive and has been raising a lot of pots from any position. I've had one encounter with him where called off pot sized bets oop on flop and turn and folded river where any potential draws would've completed. I'm UTG+1 and he's bb.

Can you clarify the bold part? Who called off, and who folded?I think I unhappily call the 15, but I don't know that I'm pushing here after he re-raises the re-raise, and if he's the one who's folded on draw completed boards here.

[MasterLJ 0]

Dude, just call.

[TheMulletBurden 0]

Dude, just call.

[irishguy 14]

Can you clarify the bold part? Who called off, and who folded?

To clarify the earlier hand. I reraised with KK from the sb. FLOP:J 10 5 I bet the pot he calledTURN: 9 I bet the pot he calledRIVER: 7 I bet the pot he folded

[nomad_monad 0]

Without reads, you would just call here, right?What about the way the villain played the other hand makes you think a push is a good idea? Given the description of the last hand you played with him, I'd say that it's even clearer that you just call here. If the dude is calling pot-sized bets all the way and then runs away after all draws hit, he is not calling your river push without the house.

[irishguy 14]

Without reads, you would just call here, right?What about the way the villain played the other hand makes you think a push is a good idea? Given the description of the last hand you played with him, I'd say that it's even clearer that you just call here. If the dude is calling pot-sized bets all the way and then runs away after all draws hit, he is not calling your river push without the house.

The previous hand I view things like AK or AQ with the A as hands that he likely had. If he had say AJ he llikely pops the flop bet. AQ I thought was possible as he picks up a straight draw on the turn and nothing hits the river for him.As for this hand. At levels like this most people assume raises especially from ep always contain big cards. Here's what I was thinking at the time.Villians possible hands:X5- checking the flop makes sense as he'll likely assume I'll throw out a cont bet88- again checking would make sense.85- see aboveX8-unless he's expecting a cont bet where he'll reraise it doesn't seem viable that he checks the flop with this.22- this isn't really an ugly flop for a small pocket pair. I say if he holds this he bets the flop as opposed to risking a scary turn44- same as the two'sThe concern comes with hands like 52, 54. From the way he played the flop then bet the turn I also think hands like A2 or X2 are possible. Maybe even A2h or A3 hearts. Also knowing that I've called the turn his river bet doesn't seem to be all that much of a value bet if he were to have the boat. I don't see him as viewing the 4 on the river as a threat and feel as though he's likely putting me on over cards/ slash busted flush draw.

[rusmac31 0]

if you push, what hands do you think he has that he's going to call his stack off that you beat?Folds to a push: missed his draw, under pair, top pair weak kicker, overpairMay call a push: 5xCalls a push (hands you beat): A3Calls a push (hands you lose to): 88, 22, 85, 45, 44So there are 7 hands he's likely to call with that may justify a preflop call and you only beat 2 of those.Pushing accomplishes nothing. Calling is the best play here (i don't think you can fold)

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Dude, just call.

[nomad_monad 0]

Also knowing that I've called the turn his river bet doesn't seem to be all that much of a value bet if he were to have the boat. I don't see him as viewing the 4 on the river as a threat and feel as though he's likely putting me on over cards/ slash busted flush draw.

Dude, ask yourself this. If the villain is putting you on overcards or busted flush, why is he raising you? He is either bluffing or he can beat overcards. If he's bluffing, re-raising him accomplishes nothing. If he can beat overcards, it's either the same str8, a lower str8, a house, or trips. Is the villain dumb enough to have re-opened the betting with trips/lower str8 when the board shows possible boats and a higher str8? Is the villain dumb enough to call a push with trips/low str8 after getting reraised back, especially since he's not committed enough here to force a call? I think you need a read that villain's absolutely donktastic before you can even begin to justify a push here.Plus, there's no value in him reraising you here if he's put you on a busted flush draw and it's really unlikely he's put you on overs since you've made no effort to protect them against a draw heavy board.

[irishguy 14]

if you push, what hands do you think he has that he's going to call his stack off that you beat?Folds to a push: missed his draw, under pair, top pair weak kicker, overpairMay call a push: 5xCalls a push (hands you beat): A3Calls a push (hands you lose to): 88, 22, 85, 45, 44So there are 7 hands he's likely to call with that may justify a preflop call and you only beat 2 of those.Pushing accomplishes nothing. Calling is the best play here (i don't think you can fold)

I think some people completely over estimate the quality of people at this level. My read on this hand told me that I only had 88,85.54 to worry about. I discounted 22,44 in his flop play. I was 90% sure that I had him beat and the reason I thought about pushing was in fact if he doesn't call me I take down a decent pot with out having to reveal my hand. Thus maintaining that I'm only raising with big hands. I thought about this for a while and while thinking I was a head I simply called partly because I didn't want greed to blind me and end up being beat and partly to see what quality of hand he plays in this situation.Villian showed. 4 2

[krup24 0]

Easy CallWhy aren't you betting the flop?

[irishguy 14]

Easy CallWhy aren't you betting the flop?

To switch it up a little. Generally I cont bet but when I flop a draw like this sometimes I'll check behind to see if I can get it for free...

[jdavidfix 0]

Raise the turn. It gives us a chance to win the pot on the river if we miss by continuing to represent a 5.

[rusmac31 0]

irish,Forget about the results.you've answered your own question: If you've seen him fold to big bets on the river when the draws got there, why would you re-raise him? If he doesn't have it, your observations indicates he will fold so what does re-raising accomplish? He folds hands that you beat and mostly calls with hands that you lose to.More often than not you are only going to get called by a better hand.The fact that he called with a pair of 4's is irrelevant. Calling is the optimal play here as re-raising accomplishes next to nothing.Your thoughts?

[irishguy 14]

irish,Forget about the results.you've answered your own question: If you've seen him fold to big bets on the river when the draws got there, why would you re-raise him? If he doesn't have it, your observations indicates he will fold so what does re-raising accomplish? He folds hands that you beat and mostly calls with hands that you lose to.More often than not you are only going to get called by a better hand.The fact that he called with a pair of 4's is irrelevant. Calling is the optimal play here as re-raising accomplishes next to nothing.Your thoughts?

I see what you're saying. And while it makes sense does it not also make a little sense that if I'm fairly positive I'm a head to push expecting Villian to fold thus me not having to give off information on my hand range?Knowing he only calls if he has me beat is not a big concern as I don't expect a call to my push...I'm not sure if my point is coming across but it sounds good in my head...

[Smasharoo 0]

*** RIVER *** [5 icon_suit_heart.gif 8 icon_suit_heart.gif 5 icon_suit_diamond.gif 2 icon_suit_diamond.gif ] [4 icon_suit_spade.gif ]VILLIAN: bets $5HERO: ...Calls if he's not an idiot.good luck.

[Actuary 3]

I'm always amazed (amused?) at all the "value raises" in NL on the river, and lack of them in Limit. Theres is so much more at risk doing it in NL.

[nomad_monad 0]

And while it makes sense does it not also make a little sense that if I'm fairly positive I'm a head to push expecting Villian to fold thus me not having to give off information on my hand range?

No offense, if this is the only reason for raising here, it strikes me as a really bad reason. It's pure spewage.Besides, so what if villain finds out that you raised with suited connectors in position? You're basically advertising now except you've managed to do it while winning a hand instead of losing one. Bonus.

[Scott3705 0]

I'm always amazed (amused?) at all the "value raises" in NL on the river, and lack of them in Limit. Theres is so much more at risk doing it in NL.

Funny you mentioned that because I've been semi worried about something I knew (but really realized when I got PT). My PF aggression is extremely passive on the river and I have seen a number of posters who have the opposite in NL....gradually getting more aggressive in each street. I am completely flipped. I hate betting rivers w/ marginal hands in NL unless i'm Shed.

[rusmac31 0]

irish,I understand your reasoning, however, I'd be happy to show the table I raised with suited connectors for 2 reasons:1. 1/2 of the table at these limits won't be taking notes and won't remember how you played the hand so showing them won't mean anything.2. The other 1/2 of the table will note that you raise with a variety of hands which will make it harder for them to put you on a short range of hands...Next time you raise, they call and the flop comes K87 and you bet, they may think you have AA, KK, QQ, 910, 87, 67, 88, 77 or air.

[irishguy 14]

irish,I understand your reasoning, however, I'd be happy to show the table I raised with suited connectors for 2 reasons:1. 1/2 of the table at these limits won't be taking notes and won't remember how you played the hand so showing them won't mean anything.2. The other 1/2 of the table will note that you raise with a variety of hands which will make it harder for them to put you on a short range of hands...Next time you raise, they call and the flop comes K87 and you bet, they may think you have AA, KK, QQ, 910, 87, 67, 88, 77 or air.

lol..yeah I agree. Table image goes both ways, sometimes I want people to think I'm TAG and sometimes I want them to know that I'm capable of raising a variety of hands.I often like to project the TAG for as long as possible because with speculative hands you seem to get payed off much more when you hit a big hand with your opponents not even putting you on anything remotely close as in this hand. Its all subjective I suppose.