HurricaneKyle 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 1/2 NL, Hero is in the SB with QQ and $177. Late position raiser who has 829.50. The guy plays any two cards and just made an unbelievably sick and depending on how you view it sick/brilliant call with 10/4 on a JT48J board for 500 dollars. Simply put the guy has no fear of sticking in his cash, but he is also vulnerable for that same reason. He absolutely MUST respect my continuation bets because I fast played quad jacks and he called me down with just a pair of threes.He opens for 8.00. I want information and decide to raise to 24 total. To my surprise the Big blind also calls and so does the opening raiser. Pot size: 74 dollarsFlopT K 9 I fire out 25.00 dollars looking for information. BB folds to my relief and LP calls.Pot Size is now:$124Turn -Q Hero???? Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 wait, you 'fire' out $25 into a guy who has called you down with a pair of 3s on paired board?we have about $150 going into the turn now and that's the a little more than the size of the pot. I'm assuming you are ahead on the flop, but with your weak bet he's not going to fold hands like AJ, KJ, KQ, AK, etc...but if he's also called us down with such weak hands I don't know..I don't think I could lay down to this guy, he sounds just like he's been catching, and/or just really doesn't care about the money and is running good.regardless, i'm getting my money in on the turn and dealing with results and reloading if he does have a straight and I don't fill up.your flop bet really sucks.- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
HurricaneKyle 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Author Share Posted May 24, 2006 Against two opponents, I don't think so. I can fold to a raise from either player with this amount very easily and if they have no part of it they will fold. A big bet(I'm curious to see what size you consider better) and then raise commits us to this pot. The 25 dollar bet tells us where we stand with the big blind(whom we are most worried about here), if they have nothing then this bet will take it down. I don't see how making a pot sized bet is better in this case. Heads up, yes. Two players OOP, I think 25 is fine. Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Against two opponents, I don't think so. I can fold to a raise from either player with this amount very easily and if they have no part of it they will fold. A big bet and then raise commits us to this pot. I don't see how making a pot sized bet is better in this case. Heads up, yes. Two players OOP, I think 25 is fine.I'm checking instead of betting $25 if I'm not betting atleast $50 to the pot.Saying "betting $25 so I can fold to the BB, and/or the donk LP is bad." BB probably has a middle pair, and LP has a wide range. Actually, if I do check this and LP bets, I gladly c/r all in. That's the best line here. Not betting $25.- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 bleh. i walked away to do my reading for class and now im bugged by this hand.Let me restate some things.1) good re-riase preflop.2) bad bet on the flop. - I think if we are in this hand against a bad LP and the BB we need to decide how far we are willing to go with this hand before we do anything. Since we are afraid of the BB here, we could throw out a bet like $50 and if he raises, fold. However, if we throw out $50 and he folds and LP raises, and then we decide to fold, betting is pointless. If we bet, it should to see where we are with the BB and that's it. That's why I dislike $25. It's so weak the the BB is going to be calling with hands with are ahead of like JT, but is getting a good price to draw. - If we check and bb checks, and then the LP bets, we use info we have on him and have to raise or fold. If I'm raising I'm committing myself to the hand, but I really think given his range we are going to be ahead of a lot of his hands.3) as for how this hand was played, meh. This turn sux in that when we only bet $25 on the flop it didn't define the LP hand at all for us, except that he might have a draw, or he might have QT or KT or T9 or 33 or 55 or 88 or JT or KQ or KJ or AK etc. We are still lost, but now with a set, but looking perhaps at a straight. - again we are now in a tough spot. If we bet, we have to be committed I'm assuming, if we check and he bets say $100, and we only have $50 more left, then I'm guessing you are advocating a fold to this guy? Was he capable of stone bluff? - I just think this hand was made out a lot tougher than it should have been. Flop play could have been better, maybe a bit more planned, and thus turn play could be easier.Since we did only bet $25 on the flop, his range has to be still wide open in our mind given the hands we've seen before by him. I'd seriously consider this one of two things now on the turn.You either check/fold.check/raise all in.or lead and get money in if he raises.Since we've played this hand so weirdly on the flop we are in a pickle on the turn. I'd be pained folded a set, even on this board, to said opponent.---Again, if I were in this hand, I'd make the same raise preflop, but my flop play would be different. I'd plan to either check/fold the flop, or check/raise if I decide to not bet. If I do bet I bet $50 and fold to a raise from BB and play for all my chips against the LP. I'm not betting $50 to look to fold to LP, if he raises, I'm going with the hand. Unless he is truly truly passive and will never raise you and just call down.If he's over aggressive though, I'd seriously consider the check/raise line which will also push the BB out if he does have say KQ or KJ etc...I tend to fight fire with fire, although it can be volatile....- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
HurricaneKyle 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Author Share Posted May 24, 2006 I like your analysis. I don't like check raising all-in alternative in this case because he IS calling with top pair any kicker over 5. Also, I'm sorry I neglected this piece of info in the original post but he typically mini raised preflop, and this was the first time he made a raise over that amount. His preflop raise likely indicates a pretty good starting hand. The BB was very tight, and I felt 25 was a good amount at the time because he would fold worse hands for that amount. Looking back, it should have been at least 35 or 40. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 This is a situation where I wouldn't want to bet the pot preflop and start bloating it OOP. Still, I think $25 is a little thin. I'd say bet $50 and shut down if you're called.I have to question whether this guy is going to be willing to call off all your chips in this spot w/ a weak pair or TP. If you think he truly is... then betting's fine i guess. I would say, if he's willing to bet this turn, i'd rather go for a C/R. or C/C. In the check scenarios, you're more likely to get the money in as a favorite. Although, I'm not sure you think you can get a bet out of him. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 wait, you 'fire' out $25 into a guy who has called you down with a pair of 3s on paired board?we have about $150 going into the turn now and that's the a little more than the size of the pot. I'm assuming you are ahead on the flop, but with your weak bet he's not going to fold hands like AJ, KJ, KQ, AK, etc...but if he's also called us down with such weak hands I don't know..I don't think I could lay down to this guy, he sounds just like he's been catching, and/or just really doesn't care about the money and is running good.regardless, i'm getting my money in on the turn and dealing with results and reloading if he does have a straight and I don't fill up.your flop bet really sucks.- JordanQFT Link to post Share on other sites
GoCryWolfe 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 QFTOk, I missed where this term is defined. What is QFT? Link to post Share on other sites
gooch 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Ok, I missed where this term is defined. What is QFT?quoted for truth Link to post Share on other sites
Guitarmy 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Against two players out of position who called the preflop re-raise, is checking this flop not an option? I dont bet out of position with this underpair given the action.Everyone is saying bet more? sounds like a spew to me. Im not saying you should neccessarily fold but see the action first. Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Against two players out of position who called the preflop re-raise, is checking this flop not an option? I dont bet out of position with this underpair given the action.Everyone is saying bet more? sounds like a spew to me. Im not saying you should neccessarily fold but see the action first.bleh. i walked away to do my reading for class and now im bugged by this hand.Let me restate some things.1) good re-riase preflop.2) bad bet on the flop.- I think if we are in this hand against a bad LP and the BB we need to decide how far we are willing to go with this hand before we do anything. Since we are afraid of the BB here, we could throw out a bet like $50 and if he raises, fold. However, if we throw out $50 and he folds and LP raises, and then we decide to fold, betting is pointless. If we bet, it should to see where we are with the BB and that's it. That's why I dislike $25. It's so weak the the BB is going to be calling with hands with are ahead of like JT, but is getting a good price to draw.- If we check and bb checks, and then the LP bets, we use info we have on him and have to raise or fold. If I'm raising I'm committing myself to the hand, but I really think given his range we are going to be ahead of a lot of his hands.3) as for how this hand was played, meh. This turn sux in that when we only bet $25 on the flop it didn't define the LP hand at all for us, except that he might have a draw, or he might have QT or KT or T9 or 33 or 55 or 88 or JT or KQ or KJ or AK etc. We are still lost, but now with a set, but looking perhaps at a straight.- again we are now in a tough spot. If we bet, we have to be committed I'm assuming, if we check and he bets say $100, and we only have $50 more left, then I'm guessing you are advocating a fold to this guy? Was he capable of stone bluff?- I just think this hand was made out a lot tougher than it should have been. Flop play could have been better, maybe a bit more planned, and thus turn play could be easier.Since we did only bet $25 on the flop, his range has to be still wide open in our mind given the hands we've seen before by him. I'd seriously consider this one of two things now on the turn.You either check/fold.check/raise all in.or lead and get money in if he raises.Since we've played this hand so weirdly on the flop we are in a pickle on the turn. I'd be pained folded a set, even on this board, to said opponent.---Again, if I were in this hand, I'd make the same raise preflop, but my flop play would be different. I'd plan to either check/fold the flop, or check/raise if I decide to not bet. If I do bet I bet $50 and fold to a raise from BB and play for all my chips against the LP. I'm not betting $50 to look to fold to LP, if he raises, I'm going with the hand. Unless he is truly truly passive and will never raise you and just call down.If he's over aggressive though, I'd seriously consider the check/raise line (on the flop) which will also push the BB out if he does have say KQ or KJ etc...I tend to fight fire with fire, although it can be volatile....- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
HurricaneKyle 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Author Share Posted May 25, 2006 I've thought about the way I played the hand on the flop, and have come to this conclusion:My play wasn't bad. First off, we have a LAG with a TON of money, and we have a really tight player. Since we know the LAG is very likely to call any bet I make because he has so much money and to his stack, a fifty dollar bet and 25 dollar bet are one and the same. There is simply no difference with these stack sizes and the players involved.Now the BB is in a tough spot here. We can safely assume that if he raises the flop its one of three hands:TT,99 or AK. He is not the kind of player who will take a card off with say AJ or JT(two VERY UNLIKELY holdings given the preflop action). He is trapped between the preflop raiser and the LAG. If he calls a bet then there is no guarentee that he will see the turn for that price because the LAG might raise, and I might have a really big hand.The weak lead was fine in this spot. Checking is bad because we get nothing from the big blind and we are giving the LAG a green light to bet whatever amount he wants(Keep in my mind that he has everyone at the table covered many times over) when we might have the best hand at least 50% of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 I've thought about the way I played the hand on the flop, and have come to this conclusion:My play wasn't bad. First off, we have a LAG with a TON of money, and we have a really tight player. Since we know the LAG is very likely to call any bet I make because he has so much money and to his stack, a fifty dollar bet and 25 dollar bet are one and the same. There is simply no difference with these stack sizes and the players involved.Now the BB is in a tough spot here. We can safely assume that if he raises the flop its one of three hands:TT,99 or AK. He is not the kind of player who will take a card off with say AJ or JT(two VERY UNLIKELY holdings given the preflop action). He is trapped between the preflop raiser and the LAG. If he calls a bet then there is no guarentee that he will see the turn for that price because the LAG might raise, and I might have a really big hand.The weak lead was fine in this spot. Checking is bad because we get nothing from the big blind and we are giving the LAG a green light to bet whatever amount he wants(Keep in my mind that he has everyone at the table covered many times over) when we might have the best hand at least 50% of the time.Just because he will call a 25 dollar bet and a 50 dollar bet both times, with any holdings, doesn't make his play correct..The goal in poker is to make your opponent to make mistakes, and by betting 25 bucks you are making the mistake..Your giving him correct odds to call with something that can likely bust you on the turn, imho Link to post Share on other sites
jdavidfix 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 The weak lead was fine in this spot. Checking is bad because we get nothing from the big blind and we are giving the LAG a green light to bet whatever amount he wants(Keep in my mind that he has everyone at the table covered many times over) when we might have the best hand at least 50% of the time.The problem is your weak lead invites any decent player behind you to raise you off of your hand with any two cards unless you often make weak leads with extremely strong hands. Link to post Share on other sites
EmOEmU 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Why not just go all in on the turn? After we got called on the flop we can be pretty sure we are beat but now we've caught a miracle two outer.He could have a jack, but we're still drawing live if he does and it sounds like this guy will call with a lot less than a made inside straight draw. Moving in should be a +EV play because he will likely call with any 2 pair or a different set. Link to post Share on other sites
HurricaneKyle 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Author Share Posted May 25, 2006 The problem is your weak lead invites any decent player behind you to raise you off of your hand with any two cards unless you often make weak leads with extremely strong hands. If you read earlier, I fastplayed quad jacks against the LAG. I really don't slowplay at all, especially against players who are prone to call. My bets should have a high level of credibility. Link to post Share on other sites
jdavidfix 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 If you read earlier, I fastplayed quad jacks against the LAG. I really don't slowplay at all, especially against players who are prone to call. My bets should have a high level of credibility.Your credibility and your previous fast playing makes your weakness on this hand obvious. This bet looks scared unless you have previously shown ability to make tricky plays. You apparently do not make these plays often, so a decent opponent is going to read your flop bet for what it is and raise it with any two. Perhaps this LAG is not a decent opponent and you get a cheap turn card. It is not always the case opponents let you dictate action out of position when you show no strength and do not have a reputation as being tricky. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Check/call any rasonable sized turn bet and see where you are on the river.Folding this to a big bet against this guy isn't a big deal.good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
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