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Ryancpotts Jj Hand. Was It Really That Horrible?


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I hear what you're saying and I'm not saying you're wrong. I certainly have a lot to learn. But if you don't raise at all then one of the blinds might have something like the dredded Krabler and take it down when a K comes.Wouldn't you want to ,as a standard, mini raise to get some of those out?
The original $15 raise pre-flop was big enough to get people to lay down hands like K3. There is no reason to pump up the pot to $50 with JJ. Get rid of the idea "Wow..I have a big pocket pair. I must win this pot"Pocket pairs are nice, but you need to learn to play flops to be a winning player. A hand like JJ is very vulnerable, therefore keep the pots small with this hand, and lay it down when you think you're beat.
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1) everyone that is chirping on the 7.5BB raise... have you ever played a 1/2 live game? 15 is standard a lot of the time. (I try to make mine 10, but 15 is standard quite a bit).2) The reraise isn't that bad IMO. Maybe it's $5 too much, but everone who's saying, it's way too big, well, .... you just keep min raising preflop. I'd imagine this usually takes a pot down. Do we automatically give credit to everyone who bets for having Aces, kings, queens? We have a hand that plays fairly well heads up and god awful multi-way. Trying to take it down PF or the flop is pretty optimal.3) C-bet is standard on this board. I'd almost rather have seen it to be $50 again tho.The hand is not awful. The flop bet is a little large, but the mechanics are pretty good.
I agree that it appears no one here has ever played a 1/2 live game. In NYC 1/2, there is no pre-flop raise less than $15. Maybe OCCASIONALLY someone will raise to $12, but it is almost always $15-$25. Period. So any argument based of other figures or standards is moot. Don't bother.Also:I think this whole thing has been taken completely out of it's intended context.This was meant solely to entertain. Lots of details about this occurance have been changed to make a better story. I did not fully explain my thought process, as it would take away from the story. And that's what the post was about, it's a story meant to entertain. For instance:This did not happen in the first two hands against players I don't know. This happened in about 12 hands over 25 minutes. Not much better, but still. The nature of play in most any NYC underground card room is basically the same. You know what to expect from the players at the table. I do not believe that a specific read on this one exact table is neccesary to make moves like the one I outlined. The guy who I re-raised to $50 had raised pre-flop out of position 4 or 5 times in a row. I was taking a stand. Knowing the incrediby aggressive nature of these players, if you don't stand up for yourself early, people will jack you around all day. This is not an online kiddie game, not saying your games are kiddie games, but you get my point. This is men's poker with PLAYERS. I was 80% sure my flop bet of $100 would take the pot. His call pre-flop told me he was holding AA, KK QQ or maybe AK, but I didn't think so. I thought he was calling my re-raise with a weaker hand to prove to me that he won't be pushed around. When he checked, it didn't feel like a trap. It felt like he was waiting for me to give him a good reason to make a big laydown. That's the feeling I got, right or wrong. So I did the most I could to give him a reason to lay his hand down. With that $100 bet, I think even AA or KK would be in a tough spot. Maybe not, but maybe.Some say that the $100 bet on the flop screamed of me not wanting a call. Maybe. But I have often bet the pot or more than the pot to give my opponent the impression that I want them to fold when I'm holding the nuts. How does he know that's not what I'm doing now?I certainly understand how it perceived that this hand was misplayed. Obviously if I were to type out every single thing that went through my mind, we would be here all day. I took a shot, and got caught. That's all. Happens all the time. This would be a completely different discussion if the guy had folded, which was equally likely, if not more likely.Ryan
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Strat Posts in General are borderline comedicThe hand wasn't played bad at all. I like to have reads and 5 buyins in my pocket when I make plays like this but the play is by no means horrible.

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I agree that it appears no one here has ever played a 1/2 live game. In NYC 1/2, there is no pre-flop raise less than $15. Maybe OCCASIONALLY someone will raise to $12, but it is almost always $15-$25. Period. So any argument based of other figures or standards is moot. Don't bother.Also:I think this whole thing has been taken completely out of it's intended context.This was meant solely to entertain. Lots of details about this occurance have been changed to make a better story. I did not fully explain my thought process, as it would take away from the story. And that's what the post was about, it's a story meant to entertain. For instance:This did not happen in the first two hands against players I don't know. This happened in about 12 hands over 25 minutes. Not much better, but still. The nature of play in most any NYC underground card room is basically the same. You know what to expect from the players at the table. I do not believe that a specific read on this one exact table is neccesary to make moves like the one I outlined. The guy who I re-raised to $50 had raised pre-flop out of position 4 or 5 times in a row. I was taking a stand. Knowing the incrediby aggressive nature of these players, if you don't stand up for yourself early, people will jack you around all day. This is not an online kiddie game, not saying your games are kiddie games, but you get my point. This is men's poker with PLAYERS. I was 80% sure my flop bet of $100 would take the pot. His call pre-flop told me he was holding AA, KK QQ or maybe AK, but I didn't think so. I thought he was calling my re-raise with a weaker hand to prove to me that he won't be pushed around. When he checked, it didn't feel like a trap. It felt like he was waiting for me to give him a good reason to make a big laydown. That's the feeling I got, right or wrong. So I did the most I could to give him a reason to lay his hand down. With that $100 bet, I think even AA or KK would be in a tough spot. Maybe not, but maybe.Some say that the $100 bet on the flop screamed of me not wanting a call. Maybe. But I have often bet the pot or more than the pot to give my opponent the impression that I want them to fold when I'm holding the nuts. How does he know that's not what I'm doing now?I certainly understand how it perceived that this hand was misplayed. Obviously if I were to type out every single thing that went through my mind, we would be here all day. I took a shot, and got caught. That's all. Happens all the time. This would be a completely different discussion if the guy had folded, which was equally likely, if not more likely.Ryan
I play some live 1/2 and 2/5.I don't think a raise of 15 is too much. I mean in a tourney it's typically 3-4x the BB. But in 1-2 NL noone's going anywhere with a 3 dollar raise.
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moron, stfuanyways...list of villains possible hands considering the post flop action:aa,kk,qq(unlikely)1010(extremely unlikely) aq,kq,qj,a10,k10,q10(unlikely),j10,ak,kj,j9,no hand(more unlikely than 1010)against all but 3 of these a reraise was a good play as it usually is with jacks.the problem was the flop bet of $100 into a $100 pot. I can totally understand the bet. "he checked after calling preflop im probably good i gotta bet". Totally understand betting the pot here. The thing is if you go deeper into the hand you realize that the bet doesnt need to be so high. what will fold that wouldve called a smaller bet that you can still beat? Nothing! Except for a really weak call with kj,j9 and ak there is nothing. The fact is that you could be beat here,easily. Throw out a feeler bet about $50. The ONLY hand that calls is one that beats you. Sure he COULD call with ak,kj and j9 but those are the only hands you beat vs 11 that u dont. therefore if a call is made you are beat 11out of 14 times. if ur good u win whether u bet $50, $100 or all in. You dont want a call here so consider the best way to make him fold assuming that ur good. You should come to the conclusion that betting $50 is your move here.
So, in your preflop analysis you basically say that its unlikely the villian has anything, and then in your postflop analysis on a board of Q-10-10 your story changes to you are most likely beat. Do you see how you just made the argument for playing the jacks a little less stronger? Furthermore, lets say you elect to play them strong- why would you slow down and start throwing obvious feeler bets postflop, and give away that fact that you have a hand that you are worried about? I would destroy you.
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Re-raise preflop is not a good play here, unless you brought $2K with you and are planning on being the aggressor all night. First hand I think it is a clear call with JJ, or even a fold. Not only is it your first hand at the table, it sounds like the first time you've ever been to this club. Get some feeling of what people are raising/calling with, and then play. If you'd been sitting for a few hours then you might know that original raiser wouldn't raise that much from that position with less than QQ, or that he'll raise from any position with any ace, etc.
(Yes I am quoting myself)In the actual context of the hand (which you just gave) your preflop raise is fine.
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people are giving you bad advice ryan. wow.don't min re-raise preflop. this isn't hte time to do that at all.goodness.- Jordan
Jordan,notice I said I'd rather not re-raise preflop at all. But, If I do I'm not going to throw 50 bucks into a pot with only 20 something in it. Thanks for responding to my "bad advice".
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So, in your preflop analysis you basically say that its unlikely the villian has anything, and then in your postflop analysis on a board of Q-10-10 your story changes to you are most likely beat. Do you see how you just made the argument for playing the jacks a little less stronger? Furthermore, lets say you elect to play them strong- why would you slow down and start throwing obvious feeler bets postflop, and give away that fact that you have a hand that you are worried about? I would destroy you.
It's funny when someone posts with such a huge ego but is actually wrong.He never said that you're most likely beat. He said you're most likely beat if villain calls 100, which is true.Do you see why we now stress reading comprehension in school?He made a good point, though he reached a slightly-off conclusion. He's right that you don't need to bet 100, since a bet of 70-75ish will accomplish the same thing. I think he was off in saying to bet 50 though, since a bet of 50 will sometimes get raised by air. So I agree with you there.I don't reraise PF, FWIW.
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