Dealing With The Table Bully

[hblask 1]

OK, I discovered the 5 person SnGs... why didn't somebody tell me about these? It's my New Favorite. This is what I thought poker would be like.Anyway, my question (which applies to all SnGs and MTTs): does anyone have any tips on dealing with the table bully? This is the guy who bets and bets and pushes everyone around. To me it's obvious what he/she is doing, but how do I stop it? It seems the other people at the table just want to hand this guy their stacks, so that by the time it gets down to the last people, the guy has a huge chip lead. So far, my strategy has been just what you'd expect: wait for a solid hand and take his money. Frequently that works if my cards are above average, but with average or worse cards, I can be at a huge disadvantage by the time I get HU (because the other players are handing their money to bully). I can usually neutralize it when we get HU, but if he's good, it may be too much to get past that early lead. Yeah, if the other players are that weak, I could try to take from them, too, but if table bully is in first, then it becomes a high-stakes chicken/lotto: which of us has the worst hand and will back off first?I've tried being aggressive back, but it only takes one mistake to really take you out of the tournament and hand it to bully. The good ones make it look really effortless. How do they do that and how do you play against that?

[Shizzmoney 0]

To me it's obvious what he/she is doing, but how do I stop it?

Check-call with marginal holdings, especially if the board is safe. That's what I usually do.......it takes real guts and it's not proper poker "strategy" (which says in order to win, you must be the raiser, not the caller) but I find it the most effective in slowing the maniac down. Plus it makes him think that you are not one to be lushed around, so when he does bet at you next time, he is easier to read because he knows he has to have a hand to win a pot vs you.Maniacs don't care about position, but you should. In position, re-raise hands like KQo and 88 to isolate against the raiser (although be careful, 25% of the time you'll run into a fly in the ointment when a 3rd player calls or re-raises, usually means he has a hand). Bullys love to push, but they usually do not want to play a big pot. They want to raise, get in, and get out because they know you'll miss the flop 2/3rds of the time. You, on the other hand, should be looking to play big pots, and play them with big hands with big cards.If you flop second pair, treat it like trips UNLESS there is an Ace on board (because most bullys raise with any A-x). Then check-call (espeically if you have backdoor outs). Other wise, check-jam the pot.If the board comes low and you have AK, AQ, or even AJ......sometimes you'll have to go with your gut and jam. Sick, I know.Also note how he handles re-raises (and if it gets down to showdown vs other players, note his hand values)......Does he like to re-pop and jam all-in? Does he raise the pot? Will he gamble and call all-ins with marginal draws (important when you decide to take a stand with A high)? Does he jam with his big hands, or does he simply call to trap (which is most often the case)?Sometimes you'll get into a pot with a bully, and you simply have to go with your gut and check-call with your pair of 5's with an Ace kicker on a J51044 board. I rarely ever raise the flop vs a bully unless there are two connecting cards to a straight, or a flush draw on the board, then I raise to protect marginal holdings, even third pair. I'd recommend raising on 4th street about 85% of the time, although if you know that the player doesn't need a hand to fire a third shell into the pot on the river, let him do so. Checking the river is the best thing you can do, because they love to bluff the river.But if you are right, let him bluff his chips off, because most of the time, the man doesn't have hand. Yeah, you'll get burned once in a while and look stupid, must most of the time, you will be the one who now is the bully

[hblask 1]

But if you are right, let him bluff his chips off, because most of the time, the man doesn't have hand. Yeah, you'll get burned once in a while and look stupid, must most of the time, you will be the one who now is the bully

Thanks for the comments, it seems I'm on the right track then. Nothing like flopping a set and watching them commit suicide. The other day a guy bluffed all-in with three 7s on the board... guess where the other seven was .So I guess I handle the bullies OK for myself, what about the fact that they have such a big chip lead going HU because the other people at the table can't defend themselves? On the one hand, I'm glad he's willing to take the heat to eliminate players and put me in the money, but if I'm behind 2-1 at that point, it's uphill work. Is that just the price for a free ride into the money? So far my strategy has been yes, because the bully collects the chips from the weak players at huge risks over many hands, and gives them to me in a few well-selected hands with little risk. So I guess the question then is, do I just let him build his cheap lead off the weakest players, knowing I've got a good chance to take it later, even if it means a mathematical disadvantage later? Or should I risk my chips to get a piece of that action? I try to steal whenever I can, but if a guy is in EVERY hand, and especially if he's to my right, it's tough to get in on it, and impossible to get a read on the right time to take my share.

[Actuary 3]

I c this all the time, paly 6 Man SnG's.Big Bully almost gurantees me to Cash... 1 or 2 pay in the 5 Man?if 2, see chep flops if you can with a very wide range with the bully in the hand..while blinds are low.as blinds go up.. don't splash around.Let him collect from everyone else..unless you have a big hand.I was once at a table wher this guy seriously bets 300 (7x BB) for every hand and eliminates 4 of us within 10 hands.I went out when his AT called my push on the flop of 458..and he beats my JJ...but by then I had 1300 and he had like 8500.once ITM though, he played normal.When these type lose hands early..they go out looking like idiots. But now he looks like a genius. Aganist weak/tights players who just want to cash, I imagine it works well.I have trouble with the "Stopper" the guy to yuor direct left who will flat call all raises..and steal every hand on the turn. No need to fire a continuation bet into him unles you hit the flop hard. But if you limp in, he folds a lot. But if you raise... he's there. It's psycological..and I need to deal better with it.

[hblask 1]

I c this all the time, paly 6 Man SnG's.Big Bully almost gurantees me to Cash... 1 or 2 pay in the 5 Man?if 2, see chep flops if you can with a very wide range with the bully in the hand..while blinds are low.as blinds go up.. don't splash around.Let him collect from everyone else..unless you have a big hand.I was once at a table wher this guy seriously bets 300 (7x BB) for every hand and eliminates 4 of us within 10 hands.I went out when his AT called my push on the flop of 458..and he beats my JJ...but by then I had 1300 and he had like 8500.once ITM though, he played normal.When these type lose hands early..they go out looking like idiots. But now he looks like a genius. Aganist weak/tights players who just want to cash, I imagine it works well.I have trouble with the "Stopper" the guy to yuor direct left who will flat call all raises..and steal every hand on the turn. No need to fire a continuation bet into him unles you hit the flop hard. But if you limp in, he folds a lot. But if you raise... he's there. It's psycological..and I need to deal better with it.

Yeah, 5 Player SnG pays out top two, which is why I'm content to let him eliminate the other players. I'm in the money with little risk, and usually these people are beatable heads up, but that chip lead bugs me. Plus, this when I play 10P SnGs, it becomes a bigger problem, I can't just wait for nuts and expect to get in the money that way. At some point I need to make a stand, and sometimes the cards don't come soon enough to slow bully down. Is that just one of the tough breaks of online poker?I'm not sure I've seen this 'Stopper' character... it doesn't make sense. Are you saying he steals only when other people are betting? How can that work?I'll watch for this, maybe I have seen them without realizing it.

[Actuary 3]

Stopper:I'm UTG in 6 Man, he is next to me.I have AQ and raise to 3x BBHe callsFlop comes XXX.I bet 1/2 pot.He calls.Turn XI almost never CB the turn w/o a handI checkHe makes huge bet.****************************yeah..with Bully... HU you shoudl have advantage if you are better of course.the upside is that he'll loosen the table up and you can win more from others, usually.he'll just increase you variance if you choose to gamble with him.You don't have to wait for the nuts

[DudeSurprise 0]

Stopper:I'm UTG in 6 Man, he is next to me.I have AQ and raise to 3x BBHe callsFlop comes XXX.I bet 1/2 pot.He calls.Turn XI almost never CB the turn w/o a handI checkHe makes huge bet.

I swear I run into this character a ton in NL cash games, but only occasionally in STT & MTTs. I don't always deal with it well and sometimes end up becoming too tight vs that player. So far all I've found is that one good check-pop with a decent-good hand at some point usually puts a little doubt in their head that a check automatically means weakness.I guess that is more apt to work in ring than tourny though because of the number of pots you'll be involved with them. I think CB with AQ/AK on a missed flop and just getting smooth called is one of my least favorite feelings. I usually just check-fold the turn, but the "Stopper" is just going to prey on that if looks like a pattern.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

re-bully. he is conrolling the table because the table is letting him, show him who is boss and be the bully yourself, even if it means making a few fishy moves

[Actuary 3]

re-bully.

not easy to do when you don't have deep stacks in tournies.

[hblask 1]

re-bully. he is conrolling the table because the table is letting him, show him who is boss and be the bully yourself, even if it means making a few fishy moves

I've started to do this in the 5P SnGs, with limited success. In the 10P tournaments, it's death, because one wrong move and you can be seriously short-stacked. In the 5P, I see enough hands that I can recover. My problem: often this bully will be braver than me. Say I decide it's time to make a stand against this guy. So no matter what, I raise his bet on the flop. If he comes back over me and raises back, I gotta fold, right? No point on ending the tourney just to make a point, right? Especially because in a 5P I will have plenty of chances to catch him. I just play a good hand weakly, and watch him turn his stack over to me. If I do call the reraise, they'll call and then will almost always fold to a turn bet. As I said, though, even bullies get good hands, and if I pick the wrong time, I'm basically done. Do you have any tips on picking the right time to make a stand? Their good hands look the same as bad hands so far.What I'm finding about the bullys is they do this early, and if they get away with it, they keep pushing as long as they are the big stack or very close to that. So if I can beat them even once, it's usually enough to quiet them a little, at least toward me. And if they fall back to an average stack after being up, they tend to become very weak. I love watching them turn into fish, to be pushed around.That is all fine at the 5P level. I haven't seen those same results at the 10P SnGs. They seem to bully more, back down less, and are willing to play aggressively from smaller stacks. I'm determined to solve it, keep the advice coming. Or is this just one of those "you gotta gamble sometimes" things?

[Actuary 3]

hblask.you hit on several good points.one of which is: A lot of bullies can't play poker and rely soley on intimidation. Some, are great players, but they play cash NL and use game theory techniques. most LL SnG bullies.. are just WPT wannabes.

[blakheart 3]

Find somewhere else to get your chips from. If the bully is after you, pretend you are on the button when deciding hands to play. If he is in front of you, play a lot of hands when he folds. Try to play a couple of tournaments as a bully, and try to get into his head. You will start to see the table as he sees it. A bully sees players that are willing to give him chips. He starts to target them. Conversly, he begins to avoid certain other players. If you try playing this way- you will see why.Actuary, you mentioned the stopper. That is an amazing play to use against a bully. He will make a continuation bet every time on the flop. a cold call on the flop will make him nervous. A bet on the turn will convince him that he is beat.Next time you call him preflop, he will check to you out of fear. You can they proceed accordingly.

[Verdimme 0]

Find somewhere else to get your chips from. If the bully is after you, pretend you are on the button when deciding hands to play. If he is in front of you, play a lot of hands when he folds. Try to play a couple of tournaments as a bully, and try to get into his head. You will start to see the table as he sees it. A bully sees players that are willing to give him chips. He starts to target them. Conversly, he begins to avoid certain other players. If you try playing this way- you will see why.Actuary, you mentioned the stopper. That is an amazing play to use against a bully. He will make a continuation bet every time on the flop. a cold call on the flop will make him nervous. A bet on the turn will convince him that he is beat.Next time you call him preflop, he will check to you out of fear. You can they proceed accordingly.

When playing in my weekly homegame SNG, we have alot of 'Stoppers'It's all about position really. They have that advantage working for them. They know you don't hit the flop that often. Just start checking some good hands to these type of players on the turn.

[iggymcfly 0]

Basically, it just comes down to being less predictable then your opponents. If they do the same thing all the time, (fire on the flop with rags, call the flop with rags and bet the turn), then they're strategy will only work if you're being predictable as well. If you occasionally CB the turn with rags, or check the turn with a good hand when you know your opponent will bet, or smooth call the flop with rags when you think the flop missed them for a set-up bluff, then these patterns will work against your opponents instead of for them. Recognizing these kind of patterns and reacting to them is what separates great poker players from people who only know how to play their cards.

[NOFX_PUNK 0]

Stopper:I'm UTG in 6 Man, he is next to me.I have AQ and raise to 3x BBHe calls Flop comes XXX.I bet 1/2 pot.He calls. Turn XI almost never CB the turn w/o a handI checkHe makes huge bet. ****************************yeah..with Bully... HU you shoudl have advantage if you are better of course.the upside is that he'll loosen the table up and you can win more from others, usually.he'll just increase you variance if you choose to gamble with him.You don't have to wait for the nuts

This guy is very often me, it's a very easy position to play from, when you see enough hands to feel comfortable in reading a continuation bet it's very easy to raise the turn with a middle pair; knowing your opponent has missed the flop. It's very profitable in the early-middle stages of MTTs when the blinds and antes become worth stealing, taking pots away from people every once in a while is much more profitable than simply stealing the blinds 4 times every 3 rotations. This play also works well on the river - if you have a marginal holding and not entirely comfortable with it then check/call the flop, then check the turn and bet the river, particularly if you have a decent holding, it looks more like an ill timed bluff trying to steal some dead money than a play from someone who has been strong since the flop - wait for the raise then take it down!

[Smasharoo 0]

Anyway, my question (which applies to all SnGs and MTTs): does anyone have any tips on dealing with the table bully? This is the guy who bets and bets and pushes everyone around.Be himgood luck.