Monster Hands...'trapping' Versus 'betting Out'

[Bizzle 0]

What he said. Flop the nut straight ... it's time to take the pot down. Get fancy here and you get into all kinds of trouble. The only call you SHOULD be getting is an identical hand. The call you WILL get ... will pay out over time.

Annnnnnnd we are 0 for 1 in determining why betting out is indeed a terrible terrible play.Anyone else care to step up to the plate?

[mgils 0]

Cue, you did nothing wrong. You had a huge hand, played your opponent correctly, and he sucked out on you. Not much you can do. Yes, you could have pushed hard on the turn, but in the process you would have pushed out his garbage hand and not won as many chips.

[Bizzle 0]

Cue, you did nothing wrong. You had a huge hand, played your opponent correctly, and he sucked out on you. Not much you can do. Yes, you could have pushed hard on the turn, but in the process you would have pushed out his garbage hand and not won as many chips.

While I disagree that pushing hard on the turn would drive the opponent out (oooooo a hint!), other than that, you are my new hero. Post more often.

[speedz99 145]

Annnnnnnd we are 0 for 1 in determining why betting out is indeed a terrible terrible play.Anyone else care to step up to the plate?

Stop being a jerk, jerk. I like using smilies.Anyways, I don't bet out here. If we are to let senor LAG hang himself it must be on his own terms. The two hearts on board probably hurts us because we have the nut draw. Let him hang himself with a bluff or mediocre hand. Or even give him a chance to start catching up, so we can get more money in the later streets.Whatever...all it comes down to is the fact that the money all went in and our OP was a huge favorite. The loss doesn't mean he should have pushed the LAG out of the pot, it just means he was playing pokah and got unlucky.

[dms26 3]

While I disagree that pushing hard on the turn would drive the opponent out (oooooo a hint!), other than that, you are my new hero. Post more often.

is this where we are supposed to say if you can make a habit of getting all yours chips in as a 93% favorite you'll do just fine?

[ForRealDD 0]

Fukkerysticks+1

[Bizzle 0]

Stop being a jerk, jerk.

I'm posting in general, isn't that what I'm supposed to do?

I like using smilies.Anyways, I don't bet out here. If we are to let senor LAG hang himself it must be on his own terms. The two hearts on board probably hurts us because we have the nut draw. Let him hang himself with a bluff or mediocre hand. Or even give him a chance to start catching up, so we can get more money in the later streets.Whatever...all it comes down to is the fact that the money all went in and our OP was a huge favorite. The loss doesn't mean he should have pushed the LAG out of the pot, it just means he was playing pokah and got unlucky.

Ohmigosh signs of intelligence.

is this where we are supposed to say if you can make a habit of getting all yours chips in as a 93% favorite you'll do just fine?

And more intelligence.To the 4 or 5 or however many morons advise betting out-the OP has 11 BBs. The villian has 12 or 13 BBs. This alone should tell you the proper play, nevertheless the fact that pretty much every other indicator (board texture, playing styles, number of players, possible redraws, etc) dictates that anything other than checking the flop is absolute insanity.

[Ouch-8s 4]

Annnnnnnd we are 0 for 1 in determining why betting out is indeed a terrible terrible play.Anyone else care to step up to the plate?

What hands do we put him on where he limps in and then calls a bet to that flop? You bet out and you lose him. You check and he does your betting for you; the money goes in. You've got 2nd nuts and draws to beat him if he has the current nuts. Results sucked, but I don't see an issue with your play here.

[Bizzle 0]

What hands do we put him on where he limps in and then calls a bet to that flop? You bet out and you lose him. You check and he does your betting for you; the money goes in. You've got 2nd nuts and draws to beat him if he has the current nuts. Results sucked, but I don't see an issue with your play here.

Yay for smart people.

[Ouch-8s 4]

Yay for smart people.

Yay for e-validation

[MasterLJ 0]

**** you Bizzle. No seriously. Go find a fire to die in.Just because you have a different outlook on poker doesn't make everyone else an idiot.Guess what smart guy, DN doesn't play like JJ who doesn't play like Matusow who doesn't play like Ivey, but they ALL win.There's different ways to tackle the same hand profitably and to assume that your answer is the end-all beat-all strategy shows an ego and ignorance that is not befitting of any winning poker player.

[dms26 3]

Bet out. It only works if you've set up a table image that you like to bet out at a variety of hands. There's no reason to give your opponent chances to catch up.I'm going to put this in my sig, but please please please please learn that STRAIGHTS DO NOT IMPROVE!!!!!! Since caps lock is the cruise control for awesome, I hope that my point is taken more seriously.Always bet out flopped straights. Just do it. You are just asking to get rooted otherwise.

you must not see that he also has the nut flush draw, so he can improve. you aren't even taking into account chip stacks, OP has 11bb's. We're looking to get all in with this hand. against an aggressive player, it's an easy check. If the blinds are 25/50 and we both have 3000 chips it's completely different.

[MasterLJ 0]

Not sure what's so hard to understand about...

It only works if you've set up a table image that you like to bet out at a variety of hands

If you continue bet 95% of the time, if you check you might as well just tell your opponent that you have the nuts.On top of that, a truly aggressive player is going to see that as a nothing flop and is going to take a shot at bluffing you.Throw out a weak continuation bet. If you're up against an aggressive opponent with overpair he's going to smell "flush draw" and put you all-in right there drawing dead to running 2 outer then 10 outer.Charging your opponent to draw is one thing, charging your opponent to draw thin is even better.I'm also not sure what's so hard to understand about straights not improving? I don't care what suit his cards are.

[dms26 3]

Not sure what's so hard to understand about...If you continue bet 95% of the time, if you check you might as well just tell your opponent that you have the nuts.On top of that, a truly aggressive player is going to see that as a nothing flop and is going to take a shot at bluffing you.Throw out a weak continuation bet. If you're up against an aggressive opponent with overpair he's going to smell "flush draw" and put you all-in right there drawing dead to running 2 outer then 10 outer.Charging your opponent to draw is one thing, charging your opponent to draw thin is even better.I'm also not sure what's so hard to understand about straights not improving? I don't care what suit his cards are.

yeah, when my opponent checks in the BB and doesn't bet the flop I always assume he has the nuts and a redraw to the nut flush.

[Ouch-8s 4]

yeah, when my opponent checks in the BB and doesn't bet the flop I always assume he has the nuts and a redraw to the nut flush.

QFRLLOL

[Bizzle 0]

**** you Bizzle. No seriously. Go find a fire to die in.Just because you have a different outlook on poker doesn't make everyone else an idiot.Guess what smart guy, DN doesn't play like JJ who doesn't play like Matusow who doesn't play like Ivey, but they ALL win.There's different ways to tackle the same hand profitably and to assume that your answer is the end-all beat-all strategy shows an ego and ignorance that is not befitting of any winning poker player.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about...If you continue bet 95% of the time, if you check you might as well just tell your opponent that you have the nuts.On top of that, a truly aggressive player is going to see that as a nothing flop and is going to take a shot at bluffing you.Throw out a weak continuation bet. If you're up against an aggressive opponent with overpair he's going to smell "flush draw" and put you all-in right there drawing dead to running 2 outer then 10 outer.Charging your opponent to draw is one thing, charging your opponent to draw thin is even better.I'm also not sure what's so hard to understand about straights not improving? I don't care what suit his cards are.

Well, since you decided to split this up into two posts, I will answer both at the same time.First of all, I don't like fires. Can I instead choose to drown? That would be less painful.Second, saying that there isn't a right play here completely discounts every sitngo player ever, pretty much all of whom will agree that at any given point in time, there is a proper play.Third, learn to read. OP didn't raise preflop. Villian didn't raise preflop. Any continuation betting will be done by the villian. OP's range is any 2. Villian's range is stronger than that. You yourself said "On top of that, a truly aggressive player is going to see that as a nothing flop and is going to take a shot at bluffing you." Why would you prevent this from happening?Fourth, go read a book. Learn a thing or two about stack theory. Learn that playing with 11 BBs is slightly different than playing with 100.Fifth, learn to insult me better. Telling me to go die is like me telling you that your post contains no content and has close to zero bearing to the situation. Say something like "Take your informed, educated, correct position and shove it up your ass!"Finally, if you want to keep this debate going, here is what I propose. You can toss up one reason for firing at this flop, and I will toss up two reasons to not fire at this flop. We will go until you are out of decent reasons.

[FatBurger 0]

No, this is incorrect. It would be better to lead on the flop here, so that they can fold right away and you win the blinds 100% of the time. You obviously don't understand percentages, it is always better to win 100% of the time rather than 93% of the time.

Ok, granted this is a tournament not a cash game. But you're saying it's better to win 8k pots 100% of the time (assuming he bets on the flop and other player folds), than to win 90k pots 93% of the time (both all in and playing to a showdown)

[Bizzle 0]

Ok, granted this is a tournament not a cash game. But you're saying it's better to win 8k pots 100% of the time (assuming he bets on the flop and other player folds), than to win 90k pots 93% of the time (both all in and playing to a showdown)

Do I really need to go put a SW on that post, or does the link contained therein adequately cover it?

[Ouch-8s 4]

Ok, granted this is a tournament not a cash game. But you're saying it's better to win 8k pots 100% of the time (assuming he bets on the flop and other player folds), than to win 90k pots 93% of the time (both all in and playing to a showdown)

Math is hard

[FatBurger 0]

Do I really need to go put a SW on that post, or does the link contained therein adequately cover it?

No, I was just playing along and adding the pot numbers to make it easier for those playing along from home. Was coming back to edit that into my post, but you beat me to it

[Bizzle 0]

No, I was just playing along and adding the pot numbers to make it easier for those playing along from home. Was coming back to edit that into my post, but you beat me to it

Heh, no worries. After a crapload of people advised betting out, I am not sure what to take seriously and what is a joke anymore.

[tskillz187 0]

Oh no, an internet tough guy that lives within 30 minutes of me! Bizzle I was responding to the title of the thread, trapping vs. betting out. Clearly there are occasions when trapping is more beneficial than betting out, but, in general betting out with monsters is better than trapping with monsters as long as you are playing an aggressive brand of poker. Thank you for talking down to me.

[MasterLJ 0]

yeah, when my opponent checks in the BB and doesn't bet the flop I always assume he has the nuts and a redraw to the nut flush.

Random comments that have nothing to do with the quoted post are fun kids.

[therrinn 0]

Oh no, an internet tough guy that lives within 30 minutes of me! Bizzle I was responding to the title of the threat, trapping vs. betting out. Clearly there are occasions when trapping is more beneficial than betting out, but, in general betting out with monsters is better than trapping with monsters as long as you are playing an aggressive brand of poker. Thank you for talking down to me.

Yes, as long as you're playing an aggressive brand of poker. Because, clearly, people pay attention to table image. I mean, people always notice what percentage of hands I'm playing and showing down and adjust their play accordingly. Yup.

[speedz99 145]

I'm also not sure what's so hard to understand about straights not improving? I don't care what suit his cards are.

Yeah...I really hope you're not serious. He has a straight. If another heart falls, he now has a flush. Is that not improving? Please tell me how that is not an example of a made straight improving.

Oh no, an internet tough guy that lives within 30 minutes of me! Bizzle I was responding to the title of the threat, trapping vs. betting out. Clearly there are occasions when trapping is more beneficial than betting out, but, in general betting out with monsters is better than trapping with monsters as long as you are playing an aggressive brand of poker. Thank you for talking down to me.

We aren't talking about "in general". We are talking about this hand, with these stack sizes, this preflop action, and this LAG villain. But thank you for telling us that there are some occasions when betting is better than trapping.I'm Internet tougher than Bizzle any day of the week (except Thursdays).