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Monster Hands...'trapping' Versus 'betting Out'


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This question results from a couple recent situations I have found myself in where I have been busted while trapping with truly monster hands that were super dominant versus my opponents.The question is...is there a certain percentage where your hand is so dominant that it is automatic to Trap and below that you should be betting out so that your opponent might fold?Do you only trap when you have the stone cold nuts and your opponent is drawing dead? Or should you protect against the perfect perfect suck out by trying to drive them out of the hand.I am referring to heads up play only as I know it changes with multiple players.

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The situation that spawned this situation happened in a 50 person tourney where only the top 6 get paid and I was third chip leader with only 12 people remaining.I was playing tight with an eye on the final table and had the second chip leader (LAG) sitting at my table. I am in the BB with A5 of hearts with about 45,000 and the blinds at 2000/4000.LAG calls the BB in position 4 and we end up heads up as everyone else folded and I check.Flop : 2h3h4cI check knowing LAG will bet.LAG bets 16,000I check my cards and CallTurn : JsI check expecting another big bet from LAGLAG pushes ALL-INI Call and throw down my cards exposing flopped straight, nut flush draw and straight flush draw.LAG curses and stands up from table and starts to gather up his stuff to leave (despite the fact he will have a few chips left)and shows his cards As6c.River : 5sLAG hits gut shot and wins hand with straight to 6 beating my straight to 5.--------Now every player I have spoken to about this hand says I misplayed it and if I had just bet the turn or even re-raised him on the flop then I would have taken this pot. I cannot really argue with them as they all just end the discussion with "how did trapping work out for you"?.I did not put him on 5/6 and even if he had that there is no way we don't end up ALL-In with me having such good outs.The ONLY other hand that holds any peril to me is the singlet 6 and the gut shot draw. In my opinion I want him drawing to the gut shot draw versus my monster. I want to get as much of his chips in the pot as possible. I WANT him ALL-IN. I am 90% to win at the flop and 93% at the turn.Am I wrong???

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it all depends on your opponent. is he aggressive, tight, passive? Also what does the board look like. for example:: AA is strong but if you are looking at a board like 5-6-7 w/ 2 spades you should bet out. It just depends on alot of things

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Am I wrong???
Yes. If you get it in when you are only a 93% favorite, it becomes much tougher to dodge bullets.
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The situation that spawned this situation happened in a 50 person tourney where only the top 6 get paid and I was third chip leader with only 12 people remaining.I was playing tight with an eye on the final table and had the second chip leader (LAG) sitting at my table. I am in the BB with A5 of hearts with about 45,000 and the blinds at 2000/4000.LAG calls the BB in position 4 and we end up heads up as everyone else folded and I check.Flop : 2h3h4cI check knowing LAG will bet.LAG bets 16,000I check my cards and CallTurn : JsI check expecting another big bet from LAGLAG pushes ALL-INI Call and throw down my cards exposing flopped straight, nut flush draw and straight flush draw.LAG curses and stands up from table and starts to gather up his stuff to leave (despite the fact he will have a few chips left)and shows his cards As6c.River : 5sLAG hits gut shot and wins hand with straight to 6 beating my straight to 5.--------Now every player I have spoken to about this hand says I misplayed it and if I had just bet the turn or even re-raised him on the flop then I would have taken this pot. I cannot really argue with them as they all just end the discussion with "how did trapping work out for you"?.I did not put him on 5/6 and even if he had that there is no way we don't end up ALL-In with me having such good outs.The ONLY other hand that holds any peril to me is the singlet 6 and the gut shot draw. In my opinion I want him drawing to the gut shot draw versus my monster. I want to get as much of his chips in the pot as possible. I WANT him ALL-IN. I am 90% to win at the flop and 93% at the turn.Am I wrong???
You got your opponent to push when he was a 13 to 1 dog. Anyone who tells you that you misplayed the hand is an idiot....no, make that an IDIOT!!
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it all depends on your opponent. is he aggressive, tight, passive? Also what does the board look like. for example:: AA is strong but if you are looking at a board like 5-6-7 w/ 2 spades you should bet out. It just depends on alot of things
Well I wouldn't consider AA super dominant over flops like you suggested.Super dominant to me is if you put the guy on overcards and the flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow with you holding 8,9 and the nuts.Then the turn is an A (board still rainbow) and the river pairs the board giving him the boat and the win since he was slow playing AA perflop.Would you have been wrong to have trapped all through this situation. You flop the Nuts. You have the Nuts on the turn and the River costs you huge.Is this not the type of hand you want to trap with and if you lose you lose??
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Without a read on the opponent, I don't really like the way you played the hand. Even if villain is drawing dead on the flop, there are too many cards that can come on the turn that will kill your action. And your hand is not invulnerable--giving him a cheap shot to draw out (or split) if he has a 5, 6, or an ace can't be good. I would just check raise all in on the flop.But it looks like you had a good line on your opponent's play, and managed to exploit that by getting him to push as a massive dog. Good job, even though the cards didn't fall in your favour.

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Hahahaha... they told you you were wrong eh?Well I'd like to know if those tournament players win any tournaments. They sound like they're tight and just trying to place in the tournament as is the majority of the players that play the game. Coming from an experienced player that places and wins tournaments.... If you get the guy to go all in on a hand where you are a dominant favorite, then my friend, there are no bad moves... you just maximized your profits. Why raise to steal when you are positive you are winning and know exactly what he is playing? Why raise to steal when you know he will bet? Why raise to steal when you know his chances of beating you. If you are confident in your reads, then you are on your way to becoming pro.With this hand, no matter what position you were in (e.g. just outside of bubble, low stacked, etc) I can't think of a single one that would deem this as not the most superior move with the circumstances you have described.GL

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You got your opponent to push when he was a 13 to 1 dog. Anyone who tells you that you misplayed the hand is an idiot....no, make that an IDIOT!!
Thats kind of how I feel. I know that when people look back with hindsght they think they would have always made the right fold and always made the right push and they base "right" on outcome... not the situation.If he missed his gut shot and I went to the final table as the over whelming chip leader then my trap was obvious and brilliantly pulled off. He hits his gut shot so my trap was wrong. :club: I don't look at it that way. When being asked to look at a hand and how it was played I try to ignore 'outcome' as that usually has little to do with how the hand should be played.An example of that was when a friend of mine flopped quads. He had 8,8 and was in with 3 other players and the board flopped 8,8,J with a flush draw. He merely called hoping people would catch up and he could get paid. The turn was a 9 and he called another small bet and the river brought a 9 and completed the flush if anyone was chasing.He lost his entire stack when another player turned over 9,9 and the higher quad.If you look by result then he should have bet the flop and drove 9,9 out of the pot as well as everyone else.Me...I accept that loss and say 'that's poker' and feel strongly that I played it right.
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Now every player I have spoken to about this hand says I misplayed it and if I had just bet the turn or even re-raised him on the flop then I would have taken this pot. I cannot really argue with them as they all just end the discussion with "how did trapping work out for you"?.
You got all the money in with your opponent drawing to 3 outs with one card to come. The trapping worked out very well for you.Once the money's in the middle the outcome is irrelevant from a "how did I play" point of view - all that matters is the situation when the money went in. It's simple EV - if the cards were face up you wouldn't want your opponent to fold, you'd want to get all the chips in.Anyone who would prefer your opponent to fold to a bet instead of getting all the chips in is a complete idiot, and you should play poker with them as much as possible.Of course you said the opponent was LAG, so I don't see wy 56 suited isn't a possible holding, since you have a 5 and have outs to the flush the probability of that still makes all the chips in the middle the outcome you're looking for.
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The beauty of NL heads up play is that so many different methods can win.Generally neither player has a strong hand.OP...I'd say just do what you normally do.If you generally bet out a lot for 40% of the pot then do the same thing.Whenever I see an ultra aggressive person raise preflop and then suddenly check the flop it always sends me warning signals.If the opponent is too weak you won't extract anything anyways.If the opponent does catch a piece of the flop, however, and calls or raises then give him a chance to hang himself.Of course if you are a particularly tight player then check-trapping might work better for you.Just remember that if you're playing an observant opponent then suddenly changing your game may be sending an unwanted warning message.

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Hahahaha... they told you you were wrong eh?Well I'd like to know if those tournament players win any tournaments. They sound like they're tight and just trying to place in the tournament as is the majority of the players that play the game. Coming from an experienced player that places and wins tournaments.... If you get the guy to go all in on a hand where you are a dominant favorite, then my friend, there are no bad moves... you just maximized your profits. Why raise to steal when you are positive you are winning and know exactly what he is playing? Why raise to steal when you know he will bet? Why raise to steal when you know his chances of beating you. If you are confident in your reads, then you are on your way to becoming pro.With this hand, no matter what position you were in (e.g. just outside of bubble, low stacked, etc) I can't think of a single one that would deem this as not the most superior move with the circumstances you have described.GL
No, this is incorrect. It would be better to lead on the flop here, so that they can fold right away and you win the blinds 100% of the time. You obviously don't understand percentages, it is always better to win 100% of the time rather than 93% of the time.
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Without a read on the opponent, I don't really like the way you played the hand. Even if villain is drawing dead on the flop, there are too many cards that can come on the turn that will kill your action. And your hand is not invulnerable--giving him a cheap shot to draw out (or split) if he has a 5, 6, or an ace can't be good. I would just check raise all in on the flop.But it looks like you had a good line on your opponent's play, and managed to exploit that by getting him to push as a massive dog. Good job, even though the cards didn't fall in your favour.
thx. I had a great read on him and saw him as LAG bad player. He was the type of player who just put most people to decisions for all their chips and because of that hardly ever got called. Good players stalked him waiting for a strong hand and knowing what he would do. Often times his only saviour was to out draw them as the good players almost always had the better hand against him.Even knowing this I had no intention to go up against until I had hit the final table and was in the money. Hitting top pair against him and having him push ALL-In was not something I wanted so close to the final table. Even if I knew I had the best hand. He has disdain for his chips whereas I appreciate the ones I earn.Once at the final table I generally do not care whether I finish at the bottom or top. and by do not care I mean I play to win and not to out last a person who might bust before me thereby bumping me up one position.This timing of this hand and the result of it was just bad luck for me. i would not lay it down and I would not play it differently in that type of situation whether it was at a home game or just before the final table at the World series. At some points in tourneys you DO have to play your hands to maximize value and you do have to take some risks with that. This hand had all the potential of maximizing with very little risk.Taking risks that are weighted extremely heavily in your favour is what, IMO, makes a player a winner. Just not this time for me :club:
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its more deceptive to play your big hands fast because every1 and theyre dog thinks the right way to play big hands is slow play them EVERYTIME its funny actually. It very easy to put someone on slowplaying a big hand and its easy to slowdown with the secod or third nuts. When in reality if the same guy bet his nuts fast i had the 3rd or 2nd nuts it would be much harder for me to get away from the hand. slowplaying sucks!!!!!

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its more deceptive to play your big hands fast because every1 and theyre dog thinks the right way to play big hands is slow play them EVERYTIME its funny actually. It very easy to put someone on slowplaying a big hand and its easy to slowdown with the secod or third nuts. When in reality if the same guy bet his nuts fast i had the 3rd or 2nd nuts it would be much harder for me to get away from the hand. slowplaying sucks!!!!!
I don't know anyone who "thinks the right was to play big hands is slow play them EVERYTIME". It really depends on your table image.since my image is tight-aggressive I know if I bet most people respect it and lay down unless they really have something. If my image was a LAG then I would play it fast.
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I don't know anyone who "thinks the right was to play big hands is slow play them EVERYTIME". It really depends on your table image.
Agreed, because how your bets are percieved is important in factoring how people will react to them. If you are playing against a player who will fold TP/TK, valuebet. If not, overbet, because he'll be so caught up in his hand he won't care what's in yours.It really believe it all depends on your reading abilities, and the texture of the board, because you want to slowplay when think someone has a weak hand and you want them to catch up, but if you know your oppenent as an aggressive player who likes to bet his semi-strong hands, you want to play it as a bluff because if you do the ole' Mike McD, "Check-call" thing, you might get sniffed out.Last night during a tourney, I had 10's UTG and raise 4x's the BB. The BB called. I put him on AK/Q, and PP 99's and below.Flop came Ah10d8h. He checked, and I saw this player C/R top pair before, so I bet out 3/4th pot, making it look like a continuation bet-bluff (but also giving a flush and or straight draw crappy odds to call). This guy knows I am a tight player, but he also knows that I'm the type of player who will bet the flop when I raise pre-flop most of the time. I did this because I know if he does have AK or AQ, he'll check-raise thinking that I have A/Q, QQ, JJ, or a flush draw, so he'll overplay his TP/TK and I'd get all of his chips. Sure enough, he jammed with his AK and I called and won a big pot.If you see players who play their cards rather than play the player, play it fast most of the time. Otherwise, just rely on the texture of the board, the type of player you are up against, and the strength of your hand to determine the best play. Being observant is the key really. It's the whole "I know what he knows" type of thing that can help you maximize profits on a hand.*BTW the Ah5h hand was played perfect in my view. You just got unlucky.
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Sure enough, he jammed with his AK and I called and won a big pot.
You got all the money in with middle set against TPTK? I don't believe it, there is no way that this is possible.
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its more deceptive to play your big hands fast because every1 and theyre dog thinks the right way to play big hands is slow play them EVERYTIME its funny actually. It very easy to put someone on slowplaying a big hand and its easy to slowdown with the secod or third nuts. When in reality if the same guy bet his nuts fast i had the 3rd or 2nd nuts it would be much harder for me to get away from the hand. slowplaying sucks!!!!!
Actually, it's the idiots you have to watch out for ... smart players make laydowns when an opponent makes a strong bet on these flops. Idiots make calls for their draw. So go ahead and put them all in when you have the nuts, and take their money — either the pot or their entire roll -- 12 out 13 times. You'll come out ahead. Way ahead.
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Bet out. It only works if you've set up a table image that you like to bet out at a variety of hands. There's no reason to give your opponent chances to catch up.I'm going to put this in my sig, but please please please please learn that STRAIGHTS DO NOT IMPROVE!!!!!! Since caps lock is the cruise control for awesome, I hope that my point is taken more seriously.Always bet out flopped straights. Just do it. You are just asking to get rooted otherwise.

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I'm with the bet out group here. I always just bet out, especially into a LAG and let him raise me because he's running me over, etc. In your circumstance it worked out great because he pushed with nothing like a moron and fell right into the trap, but I think you will find playing a more aggressive overall game will get you paid more often.If your image is so tight that you can't lead out hoping to get raised, I would argue you are playing the game too tight. Leading out at stupid overaggressive people is just too damn profitable to not put in your game. Personally, I rarely check call with monsters, and even more rarely check raise with them. Check raising is for losers.

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Bet out. The reason isn't that you want to take the pot right there, since you flopped a monster. The reason is what a previous poster said -- even though you're not worried about the guy catching up (if he has 5-6 -- nothing you can do, you're going broke). It's that a lot of cards can come on 4th that will kill your action. Best to try and build a pot now and get him to stick some money in there.With that said, it sounds like you had a good handle on this guy played and that he was the sort who would fire at pots no matter what. So I can't argue with your play. You got the villian to stick all his money in as a massive dog, so it's pretty hard to argue you played it wrong. I'm sure when you saw the flop, your thought was: "How can I get it all in the middle with him?". You got the outcome you wanted (though not the result), so kudos. But, in general, I would say it's almost always better to bet out.

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Bet out.
Wrong.
I'm with the bet out group here.
Wrong.
Bet out.
Wrong.
But, in general, I would say it's almost always better to bet out.
Correct.There is a reason that this is a time to not bet out, and it is very specific. I'll let someone else figure it out.
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Bet out. It only works if you've set up a table image that you like to bet out at a variety of hands. There's no reason to give your opponent chances to catch up. I'm going to put this in my sig, but please please please please learn that STRAIGHTS DO NOT IMPROVE!!!!!! Since caps lock is the cruise control for awesome, I hope that my point is taken more seriously. Always bet out flopped straights. Just do it. You are just asking to get rooted otherwise.
What he said. Flop the nut straight ... it's time to take the pot down. Get fancy here and you get into all kinds of trouble. The only call you SHOULD be getting is an identical hand. The call you WILL get ... will pay out over time.
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