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A Great Way To Deal With Poker Swings


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There are many different ways that people deal with losing. Most people steam and lose more. I personally find that for live games, you should bring whatever you are willing to "lose" for that session. This makes your stop loss a lot easier. The simple fact is, if you don't have any more money, you can't lose anything else. And if you do lose that, chances are........you're running bad, playing bad, or you're outclassed. It could be all three, but if you only bring x amount of dollars, a stop loss has already been set.Here's the tricky part. Online poker. Most people have direct access to there entire bankroll at any given time. So, you now have to set your own stop loss. I reccomend that people play micro limits to get used to the swings in poker. In fact, I reccomend that you play a SUPER AGGRESSIVE style of play. The reason for that is because you should learn how to book a loss. Might sound crazy. But booking a losing session of $1-10 probably isn't going to make or break you. But it should teach you psychologically how to quit while you're losing. If you still feel the "need" to get even at those limits, it's time to re-evaluate poker and money management.I don't know anyone who likes losing. I also know very few poker players who view poker as one long session. I know that's what many authors talk about in magazines. But in truth, tons of pros play ridiculously long hours when they're stuck just trying to break even. And that feeling of breaking even is much more powerful than booking a small win in a short period of time. Terms like "too stuck to muck", "change the deck", "when's the next dealer coming" are all too common. Learning how to cope with losses in poker will make you a complete poker player. I have provided a couple of examples. But the goal is always to minimize your losses and maximize your wins. I think that it was Jen Harman who gave an amazing quote about poker players in general. She said something to the affect of, don't show me a poker player who is winning, show me a player who is losing, and that's the true test of their character and ability. (I paraphrased that) Hopefully you get the jist though. Good Luck at the tables.

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Nice write-up Steve. Seeing as how I'm probably the King of Massive Swings, I should add to this as well. I've definitely been guilty of playing too long when stuck in the past. It's the competitiveness in me that does not want to settle for a losing session I think lately I've avoided this a little bit better. I've started getting off a table if I'm stuck like 50 big bets or anything around there, I used to go about 100 bets before I'd quit a table.I'd like to believe that things didn't work in such streaks, but the truth is they do. A good run or bad run can last much much longer than you'd give it credit for. It's for this reason that your winning sessions should be much longer than your losing ones. This is the one aspect that I'm trying to work on more than anything, because I've always had a problem with having huge losses and not big wins despite playing relatively the same length in winning and losing sessions.The money part of it is not what bothers me, which makes it difficult for me to quit sometimes. It's really difficult for me to quit good games, but sometimes you need to do it. I've found that sometimes there's a point of no return and call it superstitious or whatever but sometimes you just can't win no matter what you do and if you stick at a table you will just continue to lose more. After 2 weeks and about 10 sessions, I've finally booked my first win. Yay for me :club: , it's a small win, but I really needed it. It's been a rough stretch, but hopefully I'm past this rough patch and things will go a little smoother. That Jennifer Harman quote is really good, everybody knows how to play well when their cards are hitting and it's not exactly hard to play Aces and Kings and TPTK, but the difficult part is handling cold decks and 2nd best hands constantly. Having the ability to lay them down and lose the minimum on hands that others would pay off extra is a trait that great players have.One thing I took from Barry Greenstein's book and applied to my own game is when he stays in and quits games. Barry will usually stay in a game when he's winning and will continue to play in games when they are good and his results are good. He also will quit on a losing note, so he is never at his peak for a session when he quits. This I believe is excellent advice, because it will condition a player to always quit on a losing note. Losing sessions will become more tolerable as a result of this.

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Good advice...Playing extremely long sessions to chase back $$$ lost is definitely a bad thing to do, but I have done this many many times. Yeah, I did see that quote from Jennifer Harman, saying that "Show me a player that's winning and I can't tell if he/she is a good player, but show me a player that's losing and I can tell u if he/she is a good player"

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"One thing I took from Barry Greenstein's book and applied to my own game is when he stays in and quits games. Barry will usually stay in a game when he's winning and will continue to play in games when they are good and his results are good. He also will quit on a losing note, so he is never at his peak for a session when he quits. This I believe is excellent advice, because it will condition a player to always quit on a losing note. Losing sessions will become more tolerable as a result of this."This was GREAT advice from Barry Greenstein. I have watched him play several times, and I found him to be an absolute machine. He "seems' to have the perfect temperment for poker. I wish that I was half as even keeled as he is.

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great post.. i'm so glad to hear that. I've been playing really seriously for over a year now with a job as my real income. I've been trying to build a bankroll from 50 bucks for like year and half but i keep running into HORRIBLE swings. I have learned these kinda thing that i just have to keep playing well and just do my thing and accept what happens to me... but it's soo hard. if i had a couple good breaks i'd be doing so much better finacially than i am now, but that's not what happened.cards run bad.. and they do continually... and i'm still working on being the best at all times... but it's really hard, i run bad so much.. i feel like i play good.. but lose.. alot! i feel like i play bad sometimes.. but i also try to stay in games with fish, but i realize.. sometimes things just aren't working for me and i have to leave. this is why poker's so hard.. this is why i feel i'm one of the most skilled players but i'm not there yet at all.thank you steve for your insight... I DEEPLY appreciate it... you don't have to give us your wisdom but you do... i relate to it and i'm glad you help us :club:

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There are many different ways that people deal with losing. Most people steam and lose more. I personally find that for live games, you should bring whatever you are willing to "lose" for that session. This makes your stop loss a lot easier. The simple fact is, if you don't have any more money, you can't lose anything else. And if you do lose that, chances are........you're running bad, playing bad, or you're outclassed. It could be all three, but if you only bring x amount of dollars, a stop loss has already been set.
I've always been against the idea of having a stop loss. Why leave a game where you are +EV just because you've run bad and lost some.Of course if you're a tilter or are unable to tell whether the loss is due to either running bad or being outclassed then maybe a stop loss is a good thing.Also for me personally i've always dealt with losses best just by keeping a bankroll way bigger then necessary. While a -150 bb run would severely damage my roll if I started out with a 500 bb bankroll it hurts a lot less if I have a 1000 bb one. I think this is because I never really have to worry about moving down a level because of a downswing. Because of this I can look at seemingly big losses in terms of BB as a lot less damaging then if my roll was smaller.
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I've always been against the idea of having a stop loss. Why leave a game where you are +EV just because you've run bad and lost some.Of course if you're a tilter or are unable to tell whether the loss is due to either running bad or being outclassed then maybe a stop loss is a good thing.Also for me personally i've always dealt with losses best just by keeping a bankroll way bigger then necessary. While a -150 bb run would severely damage my roll if I started out with a 500 bb bankroll it hurts a lot less if I have a 1000 bb one. I think this is because I never really have to worry about moving down a level because of a downswing. Because of this I can look at seemingly big losses in terms of BB as a lot less damaging then if my roll was smaller.
The reality is most players are typically not going to have 500 BB's for the limit they play much less 1000 BB's. Of course with a massive roll for a particular limit, it's pretty hard to feel a loss, but at the same time it's going to be hard to feel a big win either. Of course if you don't mind grinding away at a lower limit than you need to be, it's perfectly fine especially if you don't have much gamble in you and losing money hurts you. I'm not saying being overbankrolled is a bad thing, because it certainly isn't, but that's just not my approach. If I see a good game out of my roll within reason, I'll still take a shot at it. I believe in taking calculated gambles.
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This was GREAT advice from Barry Greenstein. I have watched him play several times, and I found him to be an absolute machine. He "seems' to have the perfect temperment for poker. I wish that I was half as even keeled as he is.
I honestly couldn't see you being that much of a steamer, just hearing some of the stuff you discuss on here. but i know it's still possible.but seriously, it's like barry never steams. it's a temperment few possess, and everyone wishes for.
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I honestly couldn't see you being that much of a steamer, just hearing some of the stuff you discuss on here. but i know it's still possible.but seriously, it's like barry never steams. it's a temperment few possess, and everyone wishes for.
I think it's pretty much impossible for somebody to never steam. It's simply impossible for somebody to play their A game every single time they play. This could be as a result of outside factors, cold cards, being tired and etc. If you're honest with yourself, I think every session you play you'll probably find at least 5 hands that you played bad or not as good as you could have.
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Lots of good advice in this thread. One thing I'll do to keep with the life-long-game theory is that i'll set a timer for the time that I can play. Since I usually have an idea for how long I'm going to play anyway I will decide an exact time. For me it gives the advantage that I don't need to get even in a game and also it makes me focus since I only have this two-hour window (or whatever I decide) to play which for me means that I will play a better game.

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Another great post Steve. I think it's very important to the player that hopes to be a long-term winner, to find a way to deal with the inevitable losses. Losses are tough for me mostly because of my competitiveness, but also because I have a tendency to get down on myself pretty easily. Maybe it's because I built my bankroll up from almost nothing, but it still hurts me to lose a couple hundred bucks even though it's not that significant in big bets. I think the biggest thing that bothers me about losing is that I feel like it's a setback toward my goals in building bankroll and eventually turning pro. What I've resolved to do to deal with winning and losing alike is to take the advice of one of DN's cardplayer articles to heart. I "play hours, not results." At the beginning of a session of limit hold'em I will decide how many hands I'm going to play before I take a break or quit for the day. Win or lose, that number is when I quit. I've also come up with some stop/loss plans after a couple of really bad days at 2/4 a few months ago. I've never gone to a casino without bringing only the amount that I'm prepared to lose and I'll usually pick a number like 60 BBs for the session as a stop/loss. I base this on Howard Lederer's 30 BBs per session rule that I read somewhere a while back, but I up it since I'm multi-tabling. This idea of a stop/loss allows me to even play better when I'm stuck sometimes as I can convince myself to avoid tilt by realizing that I haven't reached my stop/loss yet. That things aren't as bad as they can get. And, the one time I did reach stop/loss in a session, I quit and took a break. I think mindset is and dealing with losing is the single biggest stepping stone to being successful over the long-term in this game.

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Great post. Thanks for the food for thought. I should have stopped and down 100 last night instead of down 230. The table was so loose I was sure tight play would bring me a couple nice pots. It never did.Two maniacs kept drawin out in big pots on the one table and I got stacked when my full house ran into a bigger one. I should have just packed it in after a couple bad beats, but that feels like quitting to me and i have many many times come back form that to have nice positive sessions. This downswing is something I am really struggling with at the moment, and appreciate the thoughful post.

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I just wanted to add that its great to see people thinking about ways to actually improve the mental aspect of poker and the psychological toll it takes on our bodies....I hope that this forum engages in critical thinking more often.. it will make this place alot more enjoyable.

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Good Post SteveYou couldn't be more right, sitting w/ 20-30 buyins for a NL game is just a disater waiting to happen. Especially when you lose 3 buyins and jump to limits that are out of your BR.

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Good Post SteveYou couldn't be more right, sitting w/ 20-30 buyins for a NL game is just a disater waiting to happen. Especially when you lose 3 buyins and jump to limits that are out of your BR.
Yea fortunately my inclination has been to think about moving back down rather than up in limits.
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Also for me personally i've always dealt with losses best just by keeping a bankroll way bigger then necessary. While a -150 bb run would severely damage my roll if I started out with a 500 bb bankroll it hurts a lot less if I have a 1000 bb one. I think this is because I never really have to worry about moving down a level because of a downswing. Because of this I can look at seemingly big losses in terms of BB as a lot less damaging then if my roll was smaller.
This is my approach as well. It took me a while to realize that the bankroll requirements were based on pure math. It does not take into account what my mental state is after a loss. So while my win rate and SD dictate a bankroll for 100NL of 2K, I know that I can not handle the downswings and it will have an effect on my game. My solution is to make sure I have 30 buy ins for 100NL and I will require even more than 30 before moving up to 200NL
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Post said it would be long. I thought it was too short, but very timely. Over the past couple of days, i thought I'd found my way out of getting ****ed by the deck, but I was wrong. After finishing 4th in a $4 180 and 2nd in a $5 27, I figured I was on a bit of an upswing and, if I played the same way, my results would be reasonable. Unfortunately, the deck decided to fux0r me up the arse some more. Last night, I played two SnG's and played some micro Hold'Em and Omaha HL. All four times i got busted, I had a good hand (2 Full houses, don't remember the other two hands) that got beat by a better hand. While I realise that some of the problem is my reads, I can't help but feel grotesquely unlucky. I see boneheads making plays and raking big pots with ****, but I get screwed what seems like an unusual amount of the time when I get all my money in with the best or, at least, a high quality hand. I was able to walk away, but I'm left with a loss of confidence and a sinking feeling that nothing will ever result in a win ever again. Help me, Dr. Steve!

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good post and perfect timing steve. i have dropped half my BR in the last 2 days, alot to steaming and raising limits to get back while I wasnt playing 'my normal game'. I have such poor discipline when it comes to having a bad downswing and I know this. I know I will never be a 'good' poker player until I can get this under control.

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It's common for me to see people saying you should quit if the cards are cold and you are losing. I think this is terrible advice. Yes, it is possible to get a bad run of cards, and yes, it could last your entire session, or a week or ???. The problem with saying "I'm on a cold streak, I should leave" is that the next hand may be the end of the steak. Probably not, but maybe.There should be exactly one criteria for determining whether you should continue playing: on average, with my current mindset and quality of play, will I beat these players with their current mindset and quality of play?If you are a person who cannot make this decision rationally during a losing streak, then set whatever stop-loss methods you need. But your goal should be to be able to make that decision correctly as often as possible, not to try to guess if you are "having a streak."

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I use the television as my timer, 'When this show is over, Im done: up, down, or even.' Helps me tp avoid thinking in terms of 'this session' and just play my hands. Remember the golden rule:IT'S ALL ONE LONG SESSION

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The problem that I have with playing a set number of hours is that I lead a pretty spontaneous life. I have friends drop in at random times...so if I happen to be up a decent bit, I think, "Hey...I'll quit and go have fun." Like last, I pulled a complete hit-and-run. I knew I needed to play some, but I didn't really feel like playing and people were over. I sat down to play, twenty minutes later, I was up $450, and decided to quit. The tables were plenty juicy...I just didn't feel like playing anymore.

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It is not about booking $10 losses and get used to it. It is about having a big enough bankroll for your limit, and you would not feel bad losing a couple buy-in's due to bad beats. Losing half your bankroll so quickly means you are not playing at the right limit.

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Loosely related, but I was watching Arliss the other night on ESPN Classic and they had a thing about turning luck around called a "slump-buster" where you go out, find the nastiest man/woman possible, and...I'm sure you can figure the rest out. Thought it was funny, and I'd say the attitude change is a good way to cope with/approach the game with a better attitude.

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