How Do You Play This Flop?

[timwakefield 68]

$5.50 mtt on stars, blinds 100/200 no ante.I have 11.5K chips, more than twice what anybody else at the table has. Other pertinent stacks in the hand are approximately 5k, 4k, 4k, 3k, 2k. One limp from EP, I limp from MP with 9c9h, button limps, SB raises to 400 (arrrrrrrgh, what a jerk), bb calls, 3 calls. Pot 2000. Flop come Tc Jc Qc.SB, BB, EP all check, Timwakefield......How do you play this?

[AspiringPro 0]

check take the free card you are likely to be beat and u may have worse draw.

[mmmikeySong 0]

I'd check, I think if you bet here too many people would think that you're just making a play. Hope the button checks, if turn misses and everyone checks, I'd bet it.

[Actuary 3]

check take the free card you are likely to be beat and u may have worse draw.

?You have the best draw here A LOT.Surely sb-ep bets if they have a piece to protect, ie, TP/two/pair/sets.Odds are good the Kc is not out, but that's the card you fear.If you had KcKx, I'd say push now, of course.I still say pushMake them play for the tourney life.

[KingJames 11]

I agree with actuary... I like the push here. It's a nice size to pick up and you could easily be ahead. If you are behind you'll still win a fair amount of the time.It comes back to playing to win. The guys who play to win get in and mix it up and gamble and fight for the pots that are marginal.Another question... say one of the stacks from EP raised all in. One of the 4k stacks... so it's 3.5k or so for you to call from your big stack... do you call then? It is always better to be the aggressor... is this a call?James

[timwakefield 68]

Okay good, I thought I was just retarded. I did push, figured only 2 cards in the deck made for a better draw than I had, and of course I had massive fold equity.As it turned out, SB was slowplaying the nut flush (A8), leaving me with one out, which I missed. But I'm not sure it was a bad play by me.

[blakheart 3]

With your dominate chip stack, and the amount of outs, you have to push this. You have outs on any hand out there, they are risking their tournament life.Push!

[Actuary 3]

I might be a natural, hmmm

[Smasharoo 0]

One limp from EP, I limp from MP Stopped reading about there. Why would you limp with 99 with a dominant table chip lead after a single limper?good luck.

[mk 11]

AAAAAHHH!!! Smash is posting in tourney strat!!! The world will end in less than 24 hours!!!!!

[Scott3705 0]

Okay good, I thought I was just retarded. I did push, figured only 2 cards in the deck made for a better draw than I had, and of course I had massive fold equity.As it turned out, SB was slowplaying the nut flush (A8), leaving me with one out, which I missed. But I'm not sure it was a bad play by me.

Before I got down to your post, I thought the best range for SB was AA,AK,KK w/ a club. There's so many people in this pot, I would never think that pushing this flop would be good. I also agree w/ Smash that you should have raised this up preflop instead of just calling.

[timwakefield 68]

Before I got down to your post, I thought the best range for SB was AA,AK,KK w/ a club. There's so many people in this pot, I would never think that pushing this flop would be good. I also agree w/ Smash that you should have raised this up preflop instead of just calling.

However, you were mistaken. SB did not have a big hand, he had A8 suited. And I agree, Smash made a good point.

[nutzbuster 7]

However, you were mistaken. SB did not have a big hand, he had A8 suited. And I agree, Smash made a good point.

Smash nailed it.(and what if the real Wakefield came to this sight? Possible lawsuit bro!)

[shpaget 0]

Check.If you bet (especially push) you are only getting called by:a. a better handb. a better drawc. bothYou don't like any card higher than 8, and of all the clubs only the 8 will make you happy.

[Actuary 3]

Check.If you bet (especially push) you are only getting called by:a. a better handb. a better drawc. bothYou don't like any card higher than 8, and of all the clubs only the 8 will make you happy.

booooo hissssssAnd if you push and don't get called?And you likely have the best draw.I don't think it's close. But, I'm les experienced.

[Scott3705 0]

However, you were mistaken. SB did not have a big hand, he had A8 suited. And I agree, Smash made a good point.

I meant more in terms that he had had a big hand and was looking to get his money in the pot w/ not betting that flop. i would have thought a marginal hand that raised preflop would have stabbed at this pot. when first reading the post, i thought his check was really suspicious.

[shpaget 0]

booooo hissssssAnd if you push and don't get called?And you likely have the best draw.I don't think it's close. But, I'm les experienced.

You likely have the best draw, yes, but whipdy do...do you really want to scare the guy with 7c7s out of the pot?If you get called you are likely being called by someone with a better draw....you are drawing to an 8...that's it...you hate any king, and any club that comes will give a likely caller a better hand. And if you push and don't get called - great...so what? I could do that with 2s3h too.A push will get rid of a ten or a jack, if they're not backed by a big club, but that's about it.For the most part, you're in this pot with people who hit the flop harder than you, are drawing to a hand better than you are, or have absolutely nothing....so you're just chasing the people you want to stay and fighting the people you want to leave.

[timwakefield 68]

I meant more in terms that he had had a big hand and was looking to get his money in the pot w/ not betting that flop. i would have thought a marginal hand that raised preflop would have stabbed at this pot. when first reading the post, i thought his check was really suspicious.

Good point. However the fact that it was a $5 game means that half the people playing have no idea what the hell they are doing.

You likely have the best draw, yes, but whipdy do...do you really want to scare the guy with 7c7s out of the pot?If you get called you are likely being called by someone with a better draw....you are drawing to an 8...that's it...you hate any king, and any club that comes will give a likely caller a better hand. And if you push and don't get called - great...so what? I could do that with 2s3h too.A push will get rid of a ten or a jack, if they're not backed by a big club, but that's about it.For the most part, you're in this pot with people who hit the flop harder than you, are drawing to a hand better than you are, or have absolutely nothing....so you're just chasing the people you want to stay and fighting the people you want to leave.

The pot was 10 BBs, that's pretty significant. I don't want anybody to stay in the pot with me, whatever they might have. So what if I chase 7c7x? He's not gonna pay me off anyways.I would not have minded getting called by Ac8x, but I think that that's a pretty tough call to make for your tournament life. As it turned out, one dude had the nut flush. But I'm not sure I'd be getting called by hands like AxJx, or even KcTx, and these are the hands which I want to push out.

[shpaget 0]

Good point. However the fact that it was a $5 game means that half the people playing have no idea what the hell they are doing.The pot was 10 BBs, that's pretty significant. I don't want anybody to stay in the pot with me, whatever they might have. So what if I chase 7c7x? He's not gonna pay me off anyways.I would not have minded getting called by Ac8x, but I think that that's a pretty tough call to make for your tournament life. As it turned out, one dude had the nut flush. But I'm not sure I'd be getting called by hands like AxJx, or even KcTx, and these are the hands which I want to push out.

And that was partly my point.You can push out AxJx, KcTx, KcJx, KxJx - sometimes...sometimes they will fold...and many times they will call.And those are the hands that ARE calling you. I just don't see you getting called by very many worse hands or worse draws, but maybe I'm wrong. I just can't think of a hand that calls your push here that isn't favoured to win.Ac8x has 16 outs twice and is a favourite to win....you should mind if that calls you....and it will a lot of the time - remember, your play will be interpreted to be, a large percentage of the time (perhaps at least 30%), exactly that, a play....a guy with a piece and/or a high club draw may be inclined to make a stand, thinking your bluffing enough to make his call correct. And I think a hand like 8c8x or 7c7x may call a small river bet heads up if the fourth club hits....the 88 will usually call a small river bet if he hits his set.

[anyone1 0]

I don't like just calling preflop after the SB raised. It forces you to hit a 9 or be done with the hand, I would've re-raised pre-flop or folded. Fold on the flop.

[oceansize 0]

I agree check, and take the free card. Too many people in the pot to bully out and your draw is not as good as it would be if you had two cards in the hole for your straight flush draw. If that was the case, you would probably drawing to a nut hand if you make the straight, flush, or str8 flush and it would be worth it to bet at least the pot maybe half the second tall stack and try to take the pot right now. 2,000 is a quite a few blinds at this point.However, that is not your situation now. If you make a set the probability of someone making a straight is huge. If you make your flush the probability of someone having a higher one is huge. Not to mention there are probably those in the hand that have a pair of nines beat right now. So all you are drawing to is either running nines, a King of clubs, or any 8. Your typical 15 outer is now down to 7 outs, and if a board pair hits you're back down to 2 (K or 8 of clubs).So free card, then probably check/folding on the turn.Edit: oh yeah, the King of clubs is bad too. I should have been thinking that. Your outs are even less.

[Scott3705 0]

I would not have minded getting called by Ac8x, but I think that that's a pretty tough call to make for your tournament life. As it turned out, one dude had the nut flush. But I'm not sure I'd be getting called by hands like AxJx, or even KcTx, and these are the hands which I want to push out.

Don't you think this hand would have pushed before it got to you?

[Mercury69 3]

Knuckleball.

[timwakefield 68]

If you make a set the probability of someone making a straight is huge. If you make your flush the probability of someone having a higher one is huge. Not to mention there are probably those in the hand that have a pair of nines beat right now. So all you are drawing to is either running nines, a King of clubs, or any 8. Your typical 15 outer is now down to 7 outs, and if a board pair hits you're back down to 2 (K or 8 of clubs).

What about my fold equity? Only 2 cards in the deck have a better flush draw.

Edit: oh yeah, the King of clubs is bad too. I should have been thinking that. Your outs are even less.

King of clubs is only bad if I figure that it gives my opponent exactly a royal flush...and I'm not gonna fold if I hit the low straight-flush.King of clubs is one of my perceived outs.

[shpaget 0]

What about my fold equity? Only 2 cards in the deck have a better flush draw.King of clubs is only bad if I figure that it gives my opponent exactly a royal flush...and I'm not gonna fold if I hit the low straight-flush.King of clubs is one of my perceived outs.

Not if you get called it's not.Do you think you're getting a King of Clubs or an Ace of Clubs to fold here - not likely.If you get called it's quite likely that the only club you want to see is the 8.