SapphireTiger 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Tight is right...Tight is right. This was an old saying that many of the professionals lived by. Sklansky, Cloutier, Hellmuth, all priase playing tight tight tight! Of course there are variances in their play, but in general, they believe that tight is the right style.But, with all the new and upcoming poker superstars like Negreanu, Hansen, Esfandiari...the general public is starting to realize that there is another very effective...maybe more effective...way to play poker.Being a College Freshman, with a couple years experience under his belt but realizes he has oodles and oodles to learn, I do not have a big bankroll and play about $25 dollar buy-in games or less. Nevertheless the games are filled with people who don't know how to play, are learning how to play, or think that they are awesome when there are obvious and glaring weaknesses in their play.I've played the tight is right philosophy, reading up on "Phil's Fifteen" and what not, but I realize that the Negreanu approach is much more effective in my line of play.So, i'm asking everyone on this forum, how can one make the adjustment from tight to a more loose aggresive play. Any major tips? Advice in general?thanks Link to post Share on other sites
Azzy666 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 When you first make the switch, I recommend continuing to play your normal tight approach when in early and mid position, and when you're in the blinds. Only loosen up when you're in late position (in the cutoff or on the button).This will make the initial transition much easier as you'll have position in every "loose" hand that you play. Eventually, you'll need to loosen up in the other positions as well, but when just starting out I think the above rule will make it much easier for you. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 yea, dont do it. The reason Negreanu can play like he does is threefold: #1 the implied odds on any hand he plays are enormous. in big buyin MTTs the stacks are very deep. you start with 10k, blinds at 25-50. so calling a small raise with 46o can potentially pay you off so much it offsets the risk. #2 danny can outplay just about anyone on the flop. #3 most of the guys hes playing ARE playing tight so its much easier to figure out what theyve got. in your games, id venture a guess that #1 the stacks arent that deep compared to the blinds. probably 25c 50c with 25$ stacks. implied odds are ruined. #2 your postflop edge isnt nearly as great as danny's. #3 most of the guys you are playing are loose as a goose, and completely unpredictable as they dont know what they are doing themselves. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 yea, dont do it. The reason Negreanu can play like he does is threefold: #1 the implied odds on any hand he plays are enormous. in big buyin MTTs the stacks are very deep. you start with 10k, blinds at 25-50. so calling a small raise with 46o can potentially pay you off so much it offsets the risk. #2 danny can outplay just about anyone on the flop. #3 most of the guys hes playing ARE playing tight so its much easier to figure out what theyve got. in your games, id venture a guess that #1 the stacks arent that deep compared to the blinds. probably 25c 50c with 25$ stacks. implied odds are ruined. #2 your postflop edge isnt nearly as great as danny's. #3 most of the guys you are playing are loose as a goose, and completely unpredictable as they dont know what they are doing themselves.Excellent post… you've done it again blaze…The other thing I'd add is live vs. online play… You'd better think twice or maybe 3 or 4 times before you decide to loosen up online… Daniel can play so well with loose calling hands because of his ability to read the player… online the only info you have is, the player's hand history that you've noted, the bet size and the bet timing, all three of these things can be manipulated… you just don't have the info available to make the amazing plays DN makes live. So if you're an online player looking to take on DN's strategy… you're nuts. Link to post Share on other sites
AC BillP 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 The advice to switch your play in late position is pretty good for a start. As you do this, make sure you increase the effort at reading the board and other players possible hands. Basically you are trying to now manipulate the pot and bet sizes to make it favorable. At this level, other players are sometimes almost blind to anything but what they have, so you make them pay. Link to post Share on other sites
SapphireTiger 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 In the low limit novice games the majority of players are calling stations. These games you hardly ever see a reraise preflop. That's why i think a more aggresive style of playing is more effective.In addition, the players are amazingly easy to read. It's like they read Mike Caro's Book and used every tell in the book themselves. They do the shrug thing and throw their chips in like "oh, i don't have a hand i'll just try to see the next card" and then turn over the nuts...they do the chip glance thing after they hit the flop...I know I have a long ways to go before I can use this style in the upper limits but I feel I don't have to have perfect reads, perfect analysis on implied odds for it to be effective in these games. Rather a lot of the players are weak weak weak and I HUNGER to attack that weakness on those big multi way pots that i knew i could take down with aggresive betting, but i dont' play enough pots Link to post Share on other sites
UglyJimStudly 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I've played the tight is right philosophy, reading up on "Phil's Fifteen" and what not, but I realize that the Negreanu approach is much more effective in my line of play.Well, the Negreanu approach appears to be to adjust your style of play for each table and opponent. It looks to me like he plays tight when it's optimal to do so, it's just that he enjoys the games where he can play loose pre-flop and outplay people after the flop more. I think he has a relatively recent blog entry - January or February - about a tournament in which the blinds structure discouraged people from seeing flops cheaply, so he had to tighten up a lot pre-flop and play the all-in-with-big-cards game.So, i'm asking everyone on this forum, how can one make the adjustment from tight to a more loose aggresive play. Any major tips? Advice in general?If you haven't already read his stuff, Sklansky is a critical foundation - you need a solid understanding of the math in order to figure out when aggressive play will pay off. So read him first. After that... they're not specifically loose-aggressive, but I found that John Vorhaus' book "Killer Poker" and Gary Carson's "Complete Book of Holdem Poker" both had a lot of good advice for adjusting the way you think about the game to get a more aggressive frame of mind. Mike Caro has long been an advocate of playing a style that at least appears to be very loose-aggressive to everyone else at the table, and he's also one of the deep thinkers about poker, so he's very much worth reading.Otherwise, make sure you have a solid bankroll - I'd recommend at least twice as large as you think is normally necessary for a given limit, until you get some practice and confidence in going the loose-aggressive route. The variance is much larger with that kind of strategy, so when a downswing hits, it'll REALLY hit hard - be ready for it. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 In the low limit novice games the majority of players are calling stations. These games you hardly ever see a reraise preflop. That's why i think a more aggresive style of playing is more effective. Agressive <> Loose.Two completely diffrent things. Link to post Share on other sites
BilliardsBoy 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Yea Smash, I hate it when people think those mean the same thing. For those who don't know:Aggressive/passive - refers to betting style with a hand.Example: He bets a lot, and is therefore aggressive, but Joe is passive and always checks.Loose/tight - refers to hand selection.Example: Some would say that Gus is a loose player because he plays many hands. Dan Harrington on the other hand is very tight. Link to post Share on other sites
SapphireTiger 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 To clarify, i want to be able to move my play from tight aggresive, to loose aggresive...so i gotta work on my loose aggresive game Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 To clarify, i want to be able to move my play from tight aggresive, to loose aggresive...so i gotta work on my loose aggresive gameIf you are playing limit - especially low limit and even more especially with lots of readable fish you really want to stay tight aggresive.That said, take Phil's book and use it as kindling or as compost. You have been ripped off by buying it if you want advice for ring games.For good advice on limit get Super System 2 and Small Stakes Hold Em.Loose aggresive will only work for you in NL/PL games with big stacks relative to the blinds Link to post Share on other sites
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