Basically Basically Basically Basic

[screech 0]

Party 20/40 6-handedCO just sat down an orbit or two ago, but so far, he seems to be on the tightish side.PreflopFolded to villian who raises, I call in the BB with JTo.Flop: AT3r (4.5sb)Check, bet, call.Turn and river are both blanks and I check/call both streets.Optimal?

[Verdimme 0]

Why not raise the flop?If he is tight he might even fold KK,QQ,JJ. Your are charging overs (KQ, KJ) a nice price aswell. Also, you define your hand alot better.

[hotbacon 0]

I'd c/r the flop and go from there.I don't know how aggro the average unkown at 20/40 is though. If he'll keep betting with KQ or whatever then calling down is hunky dory

[aim786 0]

Yea, I think c/r the flop is best.

[screech 0]

Why not raise the flop?If he is tight he might even fold KK,QQ,JJ. Your are charging overs (KQ, KJ) a nice price aswell. Also, you define your hand alot better.

Folding out KK-JJ happens never.Also, my thinking at the time was that KQ and KJ may continue to bet, not always, but some of the time. And if they did bet the turn, they would definetly fire again on the river.It seems like you and hotbacon both want me to c/r the flop. I think that this is a bad idea because I never fold a better hand and may get 3-bet or turn raised by a worse one like KJ. So raising the flop puts me in an awkward spot.Your thought of wanting to charge gutshots is a legit one since he will sometimes check them behind on the turn. Maybe I should donk/fold the turn? If I check/raise the flop, I will have to call a turn raise based on pot odds, but by keeping the pot small, I've given myself the odds to drop the hand.

[hotbacon 0]

Meh.I thought you said he was tight?If we're worried that he's aggro enough to 3-bet with air, then donking the turn kinda sucks since then we have to worry about a free SD raise from lower pairs or air raises.If he can 3-bet with air, then I think calling down is clearly best.Again though, I'm not familiar with how aggro the average unkown is at 20/40. If they're capable of betting K high all the way and are able to 3-bet worse hands, then calling down is obviously best.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Any thoughts on donking the flop? If villain raises, you could check/fold the turn UI...(This is something I never really do, but I'm wondering if it has merit in spots like this? You could also donk with an A in your hand in this type of spot...)

[econ_tim 0]

even a tight villain should know how to steal blinds at these levels. without a specific read on his blind play, i like your line.

[Verdimme 0]

Any thoughts on donking the flop? If villain raises, you could check/fold the turn UI...(This is something I never really do, but I'm wondering if it has merit in spots like this? You could also donk with an A in your hand in this type of spot...)

If you donk the flop, you give villain the chance to get rid of KQ,KJ cheaply. A flop donk also seems kinda weak to me. The chance that we get bluff raised there is higher then when you donk the turn IMO.Screech, if villain will never fold hands like KK,QQ,JJ c/ring the flop obviously sucks. In that case donk/folding the turn seems indeed best, for the reasons you stated.

[screech 0]

Meh.I thought you said he was tight?If we're worried that he's aggro enough to 3-bet with air, then donking the turn kinda sucks since then we have to worry about a free SD raise from lower pairs or air raises.If he can 3-bet with air, then I think calling down is clearly best.Again though, I'm not familiar with how aggro the average unkown is at 20/40. If they're capable of betting K high all the way and are able to 3-bet worse hands, then calling down is obviously best.

By tight I meant that he didn't seem to be in that many pots in the short time (maybe 10 hands) that he was at the table. I have no idea whether he is passive or aggressive, or loose or tight for that matter, he just seemed tightish. Sorry for not making that clear in the original post.

Any thoughts on donking the flop? If villain raises, you could check/fold the turn UI...(This is something I never really do, but I'm wondering if it has merit in spots like this? You could also donk with an A in your hand in this type of spot...)

I don't like it because a lot of players will auto-raise in spots like this, and I don't know if this guy is one of them. Also, he may take a free card on the turn with a gutshot, and that sucks.Against these auto-raisers, donk/3-betting flops when you think you have an equity edge (even with something like middle pair), is a good strategy.

Screech, if villain will never fold hands like KK,QQ,JJ c/ring the flop obviously sucks. In that case donk/folding the turn seems indeed best, for the reasons you stated.

I think it is close between that line and the check/call down one. Against a relative unknown, I think I like check/calling down best. I would like to have some sort of read as to how he handles turn donks before I bet/fold the turn.

[greatwhite 0]

I agree with check-raise the flop. If he's tight with the best hand he might slow it down. You can then check-fold the turn if he 3bets.

[screech 0]

I agree with check-raise the flop. If he's tight with the best hand he might slow it down. You can then check-fold the turn if he 3bets.

I knew you would say check/raise this flop. Your AF must be +4. Do you ever call?Just another point, if I check/raise this flop and get 3-bet, I do agree that I have to fold the turn UI. I could invest the same 1.5BB and get to see the river card.

[greatwhite 0]

I knew you would say check/raise this flop. Your AF must be +4. Do you ever call?Just another point, if I check/raise this flop and get 3-bet, I do agree that I have to fold the turn UI. I could invest the same 1.5BB and get to see the river card.

Yeah, but it's different. If you don't check-raise you don't have any information about how strong his hand his. By check-raising you can almost be certain when he 3bets you are a dog. Not only that, but you also lose a bet on the river. If he has KK, QQ, or KJ he might slow down and check behind. When check-raising you don't know that he's going to 3-bet.

[Wingmaster05 0]

Any thoughts on donking the flop? If villain raises, you could check/fold the turn UI...(This is something I never really do, but I'm wondering if it has merit in spots like this? You could also donk with an A in your hand in this type of spot...)

nah most players i know will autoraise this bet with the ace on board, unless he has junk and/or doesn't want to tangle with you.

[screech 0]

Yeah, but it's different. If you don't check-raise you don't have any information about how strong his hand his. By check-raising you can almost be certain when he 3bets you are a dog. Not only that, but you also lose a bet on the river. If he has KK, QQ, or KJ he might slow down and check behind. When check-raising you don't know that he's going to 3-bet.

Different from what exactly?He might fold 99. Or he might 3-bet KQ. Or he might just flat call with KK-JJ, or even a weakish Ax, and let me bet the whole way. In that case, I lose an extra small bb.The point is, this board either hit him or missed him, and I don't really have a read on how he plays. Why set myself up in a position to get outplayed when I have a showdownable hand. I think I would much rather invest 1.5BB by calling the flop and turn and folding the river UI. Or, calling the flop and donk/folding the turn (at least gutshots don't get a free look at the river).

[greatwhite 0]

Calling the flop and donk/folding the turn is another good option. I don't like calling all the way through. It's so passive and you can be allowing someone to make a set or hit with KQ.

[screech 0]

Calling the flop and donk/folding the turn is another good option. I don't like calling all the way through. It's so passive and you can be allowing someone to make a set or hit with KQ.

Say villina has 99. If he will fold to a flop check/raise, or call a flop check/raise and fold to a turn bet, I lose more money then if he checks behind the turn and calls a river bet, even though I give him the chance to hit a set. You have to take pot size into consideration in hands like this. The raise raise raise attitude is fine in bigger pots, but more finesse is needed in small pots. So calling the flop is superior even if it gives him the chance to spike his 2 outter.As for the gutshot hands, it all depends on how often he will - a) 3-bet and take a free card on teh turnB) 3-bet and bet the turnc) call a raise and fold the turn UId) bet, and bet agian if I don't raisee) bet and fold to a turn donk