need some nl help

[Suited_Up 2]

Hey guys. I started to play NL recently, and for the most part it was going pretty well. But it seems like every time I get up a certain amount in a room, I just can't win any more. Then I end up losing it and am really mad at myself.Example. Tonight I was playing in the $25NL table. Was up to $75 in one room and almost $40 in another. In that first I had put an extra 10 in early on, so I was up 40 actually. All togther, up around 50... Well I ended up busting in the 2nd room. So lost 25 there. And by the time I left the other room I was almost broke because my aces got beat. After that I just left. I ended up down around $50-55 for the night. I understand there are swings....But why is it that when i'm crusing along doing so well, it just stops. And instead of continuing to go up, I either stay level or lose it? Anyone help me out here? Cause I'm pretty upset with myself after not stopping when I was up 50!

[Smasharoo 0]

Just a guess, but if you were playing with me, I'd be watching you pick up puts with agression, determine if you were too agressive and wait to catch you for whole stack with a flopped set or something.You could always hit and run if you find yourself up quick early and losing late often.

[allinbluff35 0]

The chance that you lost your money could be this. You lost your money because you began to get bored and play more crap hands, overplay certain hands, pay to much for draws, and didn't lay down AA when you probably should have.

[Sendachi 0]

No limit is a different game than limit. I had to make adjustments when I made the switch. Short of actual NL advice, my suggestion would be to play sit n go's to better get the feel of the game. That way you won't go broke while paying for your NL education. NL ring games are an expensive way to learn the game IMO.I highly recommend NL over limit, though. Most people that post here seem to play limit. But I think NL is much more interesting and more profitable than than 1 BB per hour.Anyhow, good luck!

[Alcatraz 0]

That seems to happen to me a lot as well.In part it's a function of the coin flip discussion that went down here a month or so ago. The longer you play, the more certain it becomes that you'll eventualy lose the chips in front of you. Strong play can compensate for most of it so that the best players would have to play a near infinite number of hands before it happened while the merely very good players will see it from time to time.One of the major reasons it happens to a lot of players is playing marginal edges instead of waiting for large edges. If you get all your money in every time you're the favorite, you're going to lose sooner or later. Even if you're the largest stack at the table, eventualy you'll hit a streak that busts you out. The way to protect yourself against this happening is to tighten way up and wait for hands where your edge is large. Leave the small edges for limit poker.One way to handle this fluctuation online is to get up from the table every time you triple up. You can immediately sit back down at the next table with your original buy in and repeat. You can still end up a loser this way, but you can't lose all of your profit on one bad beat.It's also worth mentioning that unlike limit poker, in NL one mistake can cost you everything you have, so each decision becomes that much more important.

[Suited_Up 2]

I might need to start doing that.Mostly I am making the money from good hands when people make silly calls with losing hands. But I think later on It's possible I get more aggressive and hurt myself thinking my hands are good enough. Last hand I lost... I had AA... Flop was 10-10-8... I raised preflop, so I didn't really think that flop hurt me. Well I bet a little bit, hoping to get the other guy to at least call a flop bet. He did, Turn was another 8, so I go all-in... He has K-1o. Stuff like that I guess. Sorry, I'm kind of thinking out loud right now... But maybe after so long of a session I just start to get impatient and play a little differently? I'm not really sure, but I do feel some impatience after awhile, which is why I added another table, which helped until I busted in there on a bad semi-bluff. Ugh.

[Suited_Up 2]

The chance that you lost your money could be this. You lost your money  because you began to get bored and play more crap hands, overplay certain hands, pay to much for draws, and didn't lay down AA when you probably should have.

Well I typed that before I read all these other replies... but this sounds like it may be true.And to sendachi... I have plenty of experience, in SnG's... and do very well in NL tourney situations. Although you play different in the ring games vs. tourneys.... it's not about learning the game, I do know what I'm doing... it's something else. Might be a discipline problem... not sure. I am just pretty discouraged at the moment, because being up 50 would have been really nice, now I have to make 50 just to break even from tonight.. which seems to happen way too much.

[Suited_Up 2]

That seems to happen to me a lot as well.In part it's a function of the coin flip discussion that went down here a month or so ago.  The longer you play, the more certain it becomes that you'll eventualy lose the chips in front of you.  Strong play can compensate for most of it so that the best players would have to play a near infinite number of hands before it happened while the merely very good players will see it from time to time.One of the major reasons it happens to a lot of players is playing marginal edges instead of waiting for large edges.  If you get all your money in every time you're the favorite, you're going to lose sooner or later.  Even if you're the largest stack at the table, eventualy you'll hit a streak that busts you out.  The way to protect yourself against this happening is to tighten way up and wait for hands where your edge is large.  Leave the small edges for limit poker.One way to handle this fluctuation online is to get up from the table every time you triple up.  You can immediately sit back down at the next table with your original buy in and repeat.  You can still end up a loser this way, but you can't lose all of your profit on one bad beat.It's also worth mentioning that unlike limit poker, in NL one mistake can cost you everything you have, so each decision becomes that much more important.

Man, you guys all have some points that seem to be right. That party about small edges vs. large ones seems like another good point. I think I may be trying to squeeze wins out of pots I should probably just let go. Here's an example. I have JQ... Flop is KKQ. I assume the likelyhood that someone has a K is low, and that my Q is good. But sometimes it won't be, and I'll lose money on it. Not to mention the kicker isn't great either. I dunno, I find myself trying to pick up pots nobody wants, but sometimes it backfires when people get tricky on me. Where I'm used to being the tricky one.

[akishore 0]

suited_up,i definitely agree with all the posts here, but if i may reemphasize some points and add new ones:1. you are definitely overplaying your hands. not to flame you, but going all-in with AA on a board of 10-10-8-8 is terrible. do you expect K-high to call you? you'll only get a call when you're wayyy behind, looking for those two outs on the river. overpairs are the trickiest hands to play in NL, IMHO, and this is one example of just bad NL play. again, i'm not trying to flame you. the same goes for JQ on a KKQ. why would you assume the chance of someone having a K is low??? and if you get aggressive on that board, again, do you expect A-high to call you? or QT? it's just terrible play being super-aggressive on such marginal holdings.2. this has been said, but this is the most important advice about NL: drop all little edges, and exploit the huge ones. i can't emphasize it enough. this is insanely true in heads-up NL play, in short-handed NL play, in full-handed NL play, etc. alcatraz is right on, we had a whole thread about flipping coins--a break-even situation--and how after enough flips, you're destined to bust (it's mathematically true, not just a theory). the same applies to a small edge like 60% or something... if you gamble too much on those edges for your stack, you WILL eventually go broke because of standard deviation. save your all-ins when you have a damn good hand, and be completely ready to fold with TPTK if someone is being very aggressive.3. aggression is key in limit, but controlled aggression is key in NL. picking up small pots in NL is important, sure, but you must realize, what smash said is right on. your aggression will eventually cost you your stack when you think your top two is good and someone turns over a set. in NL, the value of made hands go down if they're not the nuts, and the value of drawing hands go way up when they draw to the nuts. so when a third flush card falls, you MUST approach cautiously, because the value of your hand has just shot down. wow, i'm repeating myself, but this is the most important advice in NL--you MUST be ready to drop a hand if it turns marginal. save your aggression for the huge edges.4. as for your stack, i can say this: in limit play, it's common advice that you should never leave a good game if you're still playing your best and the game is still good, regardless of how many chips you've won or lost. this is NOT the case in NL. stack size is a huge factor in NL, so it's just wrong and stupid to say that you shouldn't leave a game that's good, even if you've tripled your stack. hit and runs are fine if you're playing on a big site, and setting a win-limit (i'll leave after i win x amount) is fine in NL. although you might disagree, it's highly likely that your play changes when you're up a lot, whether you feel it or not. it's simple psychology... your stack size in NL WILL affect how you play, and that's bad.again, take this post as critical advice... i'm not trying to flame you. good luck in your NL endeavors.aseem

[elcapitan19 0]

I agree with the last part of Akishore's post (and pretty much the rest of it as well). I think I subconsciously gamble a bit more when I am up a bunch. I have found that after I triple up if I keep playing I inevitably end up pushing a small edge too much and lose a buy in or something. But I think if the game is good and you are aware of this potential trap then you should stay at the table. It's just difficult to keep playing your A game when you are up a lot b/c you inherently want to push that triple up to a 5X-6X win.

[NormanHaupt 0]

Thanks Kurt and Aseem.As you both now, I've been very successful with NL recently. Infact, to the tune of 60 dollars in a .05/.10 room last night. I did lose a little of my stack getting it- I need to learn to turn that edge.I've no problem with getting up while I'm ahead. My buyin is 4 dollars if I get up over 12 I'll usually stand up- because the jokers reload against me. I busted someone three times doing it. From 3 to 8, then he reloaded 4 more against me and I picked that up. I left right after so I wouldn't tilt.Anyone have a good online article to help make the switch to NL from Limit? Thanks again

[jayistheman 0]

in all honesty, some of the better information on switching from limit to NL can be found here or on 2+2. thats for online info... books are still always your best bet.

[MilesZS 0]

suited_up,i definitely agree with all the posts here, but if i may reemphasize some points and add new ones:1. you are definitely overplaying your hands. not to flame you, but going all-in with AA on a board of 10-10-8-8 is terrible. do you expect K-high to call you? you'll only get a call when you're wayyy behind, looking for those two outs on the river. overpairs are the trickiest hands to play in NL, IMHO, and this is one example of just bad NL play. again, i'm not trying to flame you. the same goes for JQ on a KKQ. why would you assume the chance of someone having a K is low??? and if you get aggressive on that board, again, do you expect A-high to call you? or QT? it's just terrible play being super-aggressive on such marginal holdings.2. this has been said, but this is the most important advice about NL: drop all little edges, and exploit the huge ones. i can't emphasize it enough. this is insanely true in heads-up NL play, in short-handed NL play, in full-handed NL play, etc. alcatraz is right on, we had a whole thread about flipping coins--a break-even situation--and how after enough flips, you're destined to bust (it's mathematically true, not just a theory). the same applies to a small edge like 60% or something... if you gamble too much on those edges for your stack, you WILL eventually go broke because of standard deviation. save your all-ins when you have a damn good hand, and be completely ready to fold with TPTK if someone is being very aggressive.3. aggression is key in limit, but controlled aggression is key in NL. picking up small pots in NL is important, sure, but you must realize, what smash said is right on. your aggression will eventually cost you your stack when you think your top two is good and someone turns over a set. in NL, the value of made hands go down if they're not the nuts, and the value of drawing hands go way up when they draw to the nuts. so when a third flush card falls, you MUST approach cautiously, because the value of your hand has just shot down. wow, i'm repeating myself, but this is the most important advice in NL--you MUST be ready to drop a hand if it turns marginal. save your aggression for the huge edges.4. as for your stack, i can say this: in limit play, it's common advice that you should never leave a good game if you're still playing your best and the game is still good, regardless of how many chips you've won or lost. this is NOT the case in NL. stack size is a huge factor in NL, so it's just wrong and stupid to say that you shouldn't leave a game that's good, even if you've tripled your stack. hit and runs are fine if you're playing on a big site, and setting a win-limit (i'll leave after i win x amount) is fine in NL. although you might disagree, it's highly likely that your play changes when you're up a lot, whether you feel it or not. it's simple psychology... your stack size in NL WILL affect how you play, and that's bad.again, take this post as critical advice... i'm not trying to flame you. good luck in your NL endeavors.aseem

Golden. Freakin' Golden. I have been having a similar problem with my NL game, sadly (I'm embarrassed by it, and would love to attribute it partly to a down weekend as far as cards go, but really it's because I sit for too long and don't get away from a table when I triple... and basically everything else that guy said people do wrong). So, thanks.

[woguy213 0]

"2. this has been said, but this is the most important advice about NL: drop all little edges, and exploit the huge ones. i can't emphasize it enough. this is insanely true in heads-up NL play, in short-handed NL play, in full-handed NL play, etc. alcatraz is right on, we had a whole thread about flipping coins--a break-even situation--and how after enough flips, you're destined to bust (it's mathematically true, not just a theory)"Does anyone have a link to this thread? Definitely need to read more about this. I have a general question regarding coin flips...say if you're 3 handed, in a one table sit-n-go, and you raise preflop w/ pocket 7's, and a short stack re-raises you all-in, do you have to call because now the pot is laying you better than 1:1 and the hand is still 50:50? Or should you lay it down and wait for a bigger edge? Thanks for the help.

[Suited_Up 2]

Aseem... Thanks for the reply. I was kinda hoping you would add your thoughts, because it's always very helpful. I understand you weren't flaming, because I realized those were stupid moves on my part. But everyone's advice has been very good. Right now i'm just taking a little time off... at least for the day. So I can let all this sink in and get my head straight before I try to make back the loss from yesterday. So thanks for all the input.

[Azzy666 0]

I have a general question regarding coin flips...say if you're 3 handed, in a one table sit-n-go, and you raise preflop w/ pocket 7's, and a short stack re-raises you all-in, do you have to call because now the pot is laying you better than 1:1 and the hand is still 50:50?  Or should you lay it down and wait for a bigger edge?  Thanks for the help.

I think you have to call this. The blind structures in single-table sit-n-go's simply go up too fast to wait for a better hand than mid-pair. He's short stack so he could easily be bluffing, have Ax (where x is smaller than 7) or have a lower pair and in any of those circumstances you'd be pissed you folded...

[benhoug 0]

Most of my experience is playing NL Hold 'Em. For a while I was crushing the games I was playing in, but then noticed the longer my sessions were the worse I was doing. If I played for 2 or 3 hours I was a winning player, but if I played for 8 I would undoubtedly give it back. Then I started paying more attention to the cards I was playing in those long sessions and noticed I had opened up my game waaaay too much. I couldn't let a 6 8 go by without splashing around a little. Once I figured out that I had allowed myself to get way too loose I changed my hand requirements and shortened my sessions to a few hours and the results have been great. You may be experiencing some of the same things I was. Keep track of how long you play and how far you open up, and it should help your NL game...

[Suited_Up 2]

Most of my experience is playing NL Hold 'Em.  For a while I was crushing the games I was playing in, but then noticed the longer my sessions were the worse I was doing.  If I played for 2 or 3 hours I was a winning player, but if I played for 8 I would undoubtedly give it back.  Then I started paying more attention to the cards I was playing in those long sessions and noticed I had opened up my game waaaay too much.  I couldn't let a 6 8  go by without splashing around a little.  Once I figured out that I had allowed myself to get way too loose I changed my hand requirements and shortened my sessions to a few hours and the results have been great.  You may be experiencing some of the same things I was.  Keep track of how long you play and how far you open up, and it should help your NL game...

Sounds very familiar, and I haven't even had many sessions, so at least I caught it early. and it seems that this is happening to me as soon as 100-150 hands, so not even that long. So either need to work on focus, or just shorten the sessions a lot.

[MilesZS 0]

Most of my experience is playing NL Hold 'Em.  For a while I was crushing the games I was playing in, but then noticed the longer my sessions were the worse I was doing.  If I played for 2 or 3 hours I was a winning player, but if I played for 8 I would undoubtedly give it back.  Then I started paying more attention to the cards I was playing in those long sessions and noticed I had opened up my game waaaay too much.  I couldn't let a 6 8  go by without splashing around a little.  Once I figured out that I had allowed myself to get way too loose I changed my hand requirements and shortened my sessions to a few hours and the results have been great.  You may be experiencing some of the same things I was.  Keep track of how long you play and how far you open up, and it should help your NL game...

Sounds very familiar, and I haven't even had many sessions, so at least I caught it early. and it seems that this is happening to me as soon as 100-150 hands, so not even that long. So either need to work on focus, or just shorten the sessions a lot.

Me too buddy, exactly -- hardly takes any time at all. Misery loves company?My theory on myself is that I get doubled or tripled up and think to myself "Now I can play these hands with THEIR money," and then I somehow construe that to be justification for playing shit that should be folded. It's even worse when I preach about Ace-rag and how people play it too often, and then I find myself in a hand with A6. I'm an idiot.Thanks for this thread.

[Suited_Up 2]

Most of my experience is playing NL Hold 'Em.  For a while I was crushing the games I was playing in, but then noticed the longer my sessions were the worse I was doing.  If I played for 2 or 3 hours I was a winning player, but if I played for 8 I would undoubtedly give it back.  Then I started paying more attention to the cards I was playing in those long sessions and noticed I had opened up my game waaaay too much.  I couldn't let a 6 8  go by without splashing around a little.  Once I figured out that I had allowed myself to get way too loose I changed my hand requirements and shortened my sessions to a few hours and the results have been great.  You may be experiencing some of the same things I was.  Keep track of how long you play and how far you open up, and it should help your NL game...

Sounds very familiar, and I haven't even had many sessions, so at least I caught it early. and it seems that this is happening to me as soon as 100-150 hands, so not even that long. So either need to work on focus, or just shorten the sessions a lot.

Me too buddy, exactly -- hardly takes any time at all. Misery loves company?My theory on myself is that I get doubled or tripled up and think to myself "Now I can play these hands with THEIR money," and then I somehow construe that to be justification for playing censored that should be folded. It's even worse when I preach about Ace-rag and how people play it too often, and then I find myself in a hand with A6. I'm an idiot.Thanks for this thread.

Yeah, true if it's offsuit, but I'll play them suited even to a small raise, cause if I hit it's money. But I've realized the money is in the little pairs. Hit your set and they never see it coming.

[Emptyeye 0]

Yeah, true if it's offsuit, but I'll play them suited even to a small raise, cause if I hit it's money.  But I've realized the money is in the little pairs.  Hit your set and they never see it coming.

I like A-rag suited myself. Obviously, if you hit hard it's money, but the other key piece is being able to get away from it when you hit the Ace and not much else on the flop. As someone here said, lots of people practically orgasm when they see an ace in their hand (Regardless of their kicker), and I've definitely seen A-trash get beat by A-not-quite-as-trash a fair number of times when an ace came at some point. Realistically, you're playing Axs like any two suited cards, mainly to hit the flush (Albeit what will probably be the nut one), or two-pair if you're lucky. But as you said, the real cash is in the small pocket pairs. Hit your set and get ready to stuff your wallet.

[Kendren 1]

I have a general question regarding coin flips...say if you're 3 handed, in a one table sit-n-go, and you raise preflop w/ pocket 7's, and a short stack re-raises you all-in, do you have to call because now the pot is laying you better than 1:1 and the hand is still 50:50?  Or should you lay it down and wait for a bigger edge?  Thanks for the help.

Well, cash NL and SNGs are 2 different animals. In an SNG, I go for this, conditionally. (How many left, your stack condition, etc.) In ring, I don't think I call unless my read says better than coin flip (which would require A rag or lower pair, so iffy). I'm just not a real big fan of being all in preflop in ring NL without a top 5 hand (or even top 2).

[Alcatraz 0]

"2. this has been said, but this is the most important advice about NL: drop all little edges, and exploit the huge ones. i can't emphasize it enough. this is insanely true in heads-up NL play, in short-handed NL play, in full-handed NL play, etc. alcatraz is right on, we had a whole thread about flipping coins--a break-even situation--and how after enough flips, you're destined to bust (it's mathematically true, not just a theory)"Does anyone have a link to this thread?  Definitely need to read more about this.  

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...3659&highlight=