Should This Turn Card Slow Me Down?

[7notrump 0]

$1-$2 NLHE 8-HandedHero: $89Villan: $90Villan loves to raise in position at this loose passive table. Recently called down for his whole stack continually betting his 7 high flush draw on each street[it didn't hit]. He bought back in. I know him better that any other at the table and have played a good 20 hours against him in the last two months. He is trying to play TAG but can't resist the "any two card" urge every once in a while(becoming more rare). I have never seen him show a weak Ace(A2-AT)If he is in a pot, he is in position and was the preflop raiser( > %80).Pre Flop:Hero(SB): A A fold around to CO, CO calls $2, Villan(Button) raises $2,...The fold around is very rare. CO plays very many hands, is an Ace-hugger, not worried about him. Villan could have any hand here. BB is very tight, not worried about him.Hero(SB) re-raises $8...[Thoughts?]2 folds, Villan calls.Okay, his call and not re-re-raise narrows his range to 22-JJ, 89-KQ, AJ-AQ.Flop($28): 6 K 7 Hero bets $20...[Thoughts?]Villan CallsThe call is strength to me. He has at least an OESD, more likely a flush draw, or a King or set. I now think AK is a possibility but he would raise here most likely so AK is rare here.Turn($68): K Hero bets all-in...[Thoughts?]I wanted the pot and didn't want to lose to a flush or straight on the river.Increase preflop or flop bets?Check the turn?All critiques are welcome.

[DrZebra 0]

$1-$2 NLHE 8-HandedHero: $89Villan: $90Villan loves to raise in position at this loose passive table. Recently called down for his whole stack continually betting his 7 high flush draw on each street[it didn't hit]. He bought back in. I know him better that any other at the table and have played a good 20 hours against him in the last two months. He is trying to play TAG but can't resist the "any two card" urge every once in a while(becoming more rare). I have never seen him show a weak Ace(A2-AT)If he is in a pot, he is in position and was the preflop raiser( > %80).Pre Flop:Hero(SB): A A fold around to CO, CO calls $2, Villan(Button) raises $2,...The fold around is very rare. CO plays very many hands, is an Ace-hugger, not worried about him. Villan could have any hand here. BB is very tight, not worried about him.Hero(SB) re-raises $8...[Thoughts?]2 folds, Villan calls.Okay, his call and not re-re-raise narrows his range to 22-JJ, 89-KQ, AJ-AQ.Flop($28): 6 K 7 Hero bets $20...[Thoughts?]Villan CallsThe call is strength to me. He has at least an OESD, more likely a flush draw, or a King or set. I now think AK is a possibility but he would raise here most likely so AK is rare here.Turn($68): K Hero bets all-in...[Thoughts?]I wanted the pot and didn't want to lose to a flush or straight on the river.Increase preflop or flop bets?Check the turn?All critiques are welcome.

All the thoughts in the world can't stop you from getting drawn out by the two-outter here. You might check the turn, but you'd still have to consider calling a large bet. Maybe you can get off but the pot is big enough for your miniscule stacks.Definitely raise more preflop. Bet about 3/4 the pot on a flop like that.Can't get around the fact that sometimes you get outdrawn.

[Scott3705 0]

If he's a LAG and will likely bet if we check here, why not check? Maybe I'm misunderstand the characterization of the villain, but it seems like he would take this opportunity to bet.. no?

[DrZebra 0]

If he's a LAG and will likely bet if we check here, why not check? Maybe I'm misunderstand the characterization of the villain, but it seems like he would take this opportunity to bet.. no?

I agree with you if we're afraid to lose him, but I think the issue is we don't know where we're at, but we want to see showdown.He's not folding anything that beats us, so a check is probably best.

[7notrump 0]

If he's a LAG and will likely bet if we check here, why not check? Maybe I'm misunderstand the characterization of the villain, but it seems like he would take this opportunity to bet.. no?

Definately %100 he bets if I check. That is why I did not want to check because I did not want to talk myself into folding the best hand. Is this backwards thinking? I make a bet that only gets called if I am a HUGE underdog because I don't want to loose the pot to a worse hand by folding or a river suck-out.

I agree with you if we're afraid to lose him, but I think the issue is we don't know where we're at, but we want to see showdown.He's not folding anything that beats us, so a check is probably best.

So the line you suggest is that check/calling is better than all-in because of the chance of getting Villans stack in the pot when I am winning is greatly increased. Are we resigning to the fact that I am seeing show-down no matter what? C/F is not an option?

[DrZebra 0]

C/F is not an option?

Up to you. I can't see C/F this when you're getting better than 2:1.You've established that he can have a wide range of hands. If he's playing particularly tight maybe, but this guy seems like a loose cannon, could have a flush draw or a smaller pp.For instance (for the sake of argument) let's say he's got 1010-QQ.He will certainly bet, but will probably not call all-in when you push on the turn.

[Chief 0]

Definately %100 he bets if I check. That is why I did not want to check because I did not want to talk myself into folding the best hand. Is this backwards thinking?

yes

[MasterLJ 0]

I think checking is wrong because there are many other viable draws out there... straight, and every donk's favorite, the flush. It's pretty much certain that if you check, he bets. Most would advocate calling that bet, I advocate showing strength here (represent the K). Good players are not going to continue to draw to a flush or a straight on a paired board with 1 card to come. If he calls, you are pretty much screwed though.

[Scott3705 0]

I think checking is wrong because there are many other viable draws out there... straight, and every donk's favorite, the flush. It's pretty much certain that if you check, he bets. Most would advocate calling that bet, I advocate showing strength here (represent the K). Good players are not going to continue to draw to a flush or a straight on a paired board with 1 card to come. If he calls, you are pretty much screwed though.

I'm sorry my eyes are bleeding after seeing you responses.... We don't bet because we're supposed to be aggressive. We need a better reason. Here, it's because we don't want to fold the best hand given the option, maybe it's cause I've had some after work drinks already, but WHY WOULD WE NOT CHECK/CALL IF WE'RE WILLING TO PUT ALL OUR CHIPS IN HERE? If we are certain he will bet if we check, then we gain absolutely nothing, by betting. We want him to commit with the draw. We want him to put more chips in the pot. If we bet, then we are getting a call from the king or a set and we get folds from smaller pairs and draws that would have bet in the first place. There is absolutely no reason to bet this turn if we're a.committed to getting all our chips in and b. certain he will bet. Absolutely none. Leading all in is terrible.edited chief name out... knew you were better than that.

[DrZebra 0]

I'm sorry my eyes are bleeding after seeing you and chief's responses.... We don't bet because we're supposed to be aggressive. We need a better reason. Here, it's because we don't want to fold the best hand given the option, maybe it's cause I've had some after work drinks already, but WHY WOULD WE NOT CHECK/CALL IF WE'RE WILLING TO PUT ALL OUR CHIPS IN HERE? If we are certain he will bet if we check, then we gain absolutely nothing, by betting. We want him to commit with the draw. We want him to put more chips in the pot. If we bet, then we are getting a call from the king or a set and we get folds from smaller pairs and draws that would have bet in the first place. There is absolutely no reason to bet this turn if we're a.committed to getting all our chips in and b. certain he will bet. Absolutely none. Leading all in is terrible.

Chief said "yes, that thought process is backwards" ie don't bet.

[Scott3705 0]

Chief said "yes, that thought process is backwards" ie don't bet.

Like I said, I've had some after work drinks.

[MasterLJ 0]

I'm sorry my eyes are bleeding after seeing you responses.... We don't bet because we're supposed to be aggressive. We need a better reason. Here, it's because we don't want to fold the best hand given the option, maybe it's cause I've had some after work drinks already, but WHY WOULD WE NOT CHECK/CALL IF WE'RE WILLING TO PUT ALL OUR CHIPS IN HERE? If we are certain he will bet if we check, then we gain absolutely nothing, by betting. We want him to commit with the draw. We want him to put more chips in the pot. If we bet, then we are getting a call from the king or a set and we get folds from smaller pairs and draws that would have bet in the first place. There is absolutely no reason to bet this turn if we're a.committed to getting all our chips in and b. certain he will bet. Absolutely none. Leading all in is terrible.edited chief name out... knew you were better than that.

We gain a lot. We control how much we bet, and we figure out very quickly if they have the K. We also prevent draws from trying to represent a King. We take control of the hand. We aren't talking about going all in by any stretch (not sure where you got that part). As Phil Gordon says, if you're willing to call it, you should be betting it.

[Scott3705 0]

We gain a lot. We control how much we bet, and we figure out very quickly if they have the K. We also prevent draws from trying to represent a King. We take control of the hand. We aren't talking about going all in by any stretch (not sure where you got that part). As Phil Gordon says, if you're willing to call it, you should be betting it.

Turn($68): K icon_suit_heart.gifHero bets all-in...[Thoughts?]Also, notice how short the stacks are. What could you bet into this turn and be able to fold?I think Phil Gordon's quote should be modified for short stack situations like these. Bet for a reason. The reason you bet is to get better hands to fold and worse hands to call. Pushing into this turn does not fold any better hand and will likely not get a call from worse hands (and if it is a worse hand, it's betting anyway).

[7notrump 0]

I deffinately see the merit in the check/call on the river and will play the same situation that way if it comes around again.He had KQos and obviously called.

[petersun 0]

I'm a bit confused. So you figure him for a wide range, definitely considered the possibility that he has you beat about 6 or 7 ways, and decide to go ALL-IN just in case he has the flush or straight draw? I think that you need to simply consider your conclusions in light of the situation and follow your initial thoughts.If you want to chase out the draw, bet 40 on the flop.The only person who will call your turn bet is a hand that has you beat.

[AceyDeucy 0]

As someone who plays like the villain, I will just say this:If you check, I am betting that turn with anything, because I know you are afraid of it. If you bet, you put me in a much more difficult position.