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self interpretation of the Bible is not easy.
True self interpretation of the Bible is impossible unless original documents are found and you can read it. What exists now is already interpreted and translated without any evidence of who did the interpreting and whether their motivation was accurate intepretation or advancement of their own agendas.
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True self interpretation of the Bible is impossible
Going to have to agree to disagree on this. Obviously interpretation of the Bible is possible. The accuracy of the interpretation may be low due to myriad factors. But, in the absence of better circumstances we work within those confines that bind us.Monty
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Going to have to agree to disagree on this. Obviously interpretation of the Bible is possible. The accuracy of the interpretation may be low due to myriad factors. But, in the absence of better circumstances we work within those confines that bind us.Monty
I think its just a semantic difference. When I read "self interpret the Bible" I see "interpreting the meaning of the original words". Since we only have a "game of telephone" version, the meaning of the original words may already be twisted beyond valid interpretation.The purpose of any self-interpretation would be to learn/understand the "word of god", or at least those you are hoping directly heard and delivered the "word of god". If all you are getting is "the Bible for Dummies" version (oops..there probably is a Bible for Dummies already) you can never know whether you are interpreting the original or an interpretation of an interpretation blah blah blah.
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a side note... an atheist is just a very dumb agnostic.

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Brv, I gotta say, I am an agnostic and your sig does not represent me at all

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But back to the point, the Bible actually encourages people to think for themselves throughout. It encourages you to seek God in every decision you make, and promises answers for all of life’s problems lie in the Bible. Now since God doesn't literally speak to us we have to read for ourselves and interpret
I'm sorry but the irony here has made me lose control of my bladder
Ahh, yeah...Jesus says "come to me, for your answers" and I claim I'm thinking for myself. But see that's where it gets tough. Have you ever tried to get an answer from someone that can't actually answer you? You would be a follower if you called your pastor and asked him for all the answers, but self interpretation of the Bible is not easy.
Oh it just gets better and better.You are not seriously suggesting that you are encouraged to think for yourself because Jesus is not available for questioning and therefore you have find life's answers in the Bible via self interpretation?
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Ahh, yeah...Jesus says "come to me, for your answers" and I claim I'm thinking for myself. But see that's where it gets tough. Have you ever tried to get an answer from someone that can't actually answer you? You would be a follower if you called your pastor and asked him for all the answers, but self interpretation of the Bible is not easy.Oh it just gets better and better.You are not seriously suggesting that you are encouraged to think for yourself because Jesus is not available for questioning and therefore you have find life's answers in the Bible via self interpretation?
Its taking you awhile, but you're getting there...
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I have always believed what Christians have told me, that believe in Jesus was an absolute necessity to get into heaven. Never really studied the bible myself, just took it for granted... after reading this thread I'm wondering if there is hope for my eternal soul after all!Because I dont see my self accepting Jesus anytime soon --- I figure now I have carte blanch to continue my evil, agnostic ways without a worry!

Let me be clear right off the bat, I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am curious why so many of you who are agnostic or atheists frequent the religion forum? It seems to me that if you aren’t into religion you wouldn’t have any interest in what’s going on in here. I for one could care less about hockey. Most sports I am fanatical about, but I think hockey sucks, and I can’t think of any reason to check out the hockey forum. Some of you are bitter, some think you’re smarter than you are and think here is a place to show it, and some just want to argue and be adversarial. But for those that don’t fit any of the previous categories whats your reason?
And to the original point of this thread ... I visit here because I am interested in life's mysteries, the eternal questions, what does it all mean, yada yada yada. BECAUSE I am unsure about God I am very interested in a religion form.. your "hocky" analogy is not good. If I was curious about hocky and why people liked it the FIRST place I would look is a hocky forum... I am curious about religion and why people practice it so I look here.
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True self interpretation of the Bible is impossible unless original documents are found and you can read it. What exists now is already interpreted and translated without any evidence of who did the interpreting and whether their motivation was accurate intepretation or advancement of their own agendas.
I have been trying to tell Matt this very thought process for days upon days. We don't agree on much, but on this point you are right on. It's all about agenda, and spin. The KJV had one purpose- King James had the power to get it done even though the Catholics in power did not want the people to have acces to the Bible. When scholars proved incompetent, they were killed. When King James found out his marriage to his wife was not biblical- she was killed. He had no agenda except to get what he believed to be the word of God to the people. It's why I trust it.
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Ahh, yeah...Jesus says "come to me, for your answers" and I claim I'm thinking for myself. But see that's where it gets tough. Have you ever tried to get an answer from someone that can't actually answer you? You would be a follower if you called your pastor and asked him for all the answers, but self interpretation of the Bible is not easy.Oh it just gets better and better.You are not seriously suggesting that you are encouraged to think for yourself because Jesus is not available for questioning and therefore you have find life's answers in the Bible via self interpretation?
Its taking you awhile, but you're getting there...
Actually, its taking you a very long time and you're still not close.My point was that most religions don't encourage you to think for yourself.You then confirm my point by stating that God tells you where and what the answers are for all of lifes problems.You then smugly think that the fact that Jesus is not around to ask, therefore forcing you to 'find' these answers yourself justifies this definition of free thinking.If you are confined to a box you are not free of it just because the warden is deadTake a step back and listen to yourself. The above is not encouraging free thinking
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Religion is the root of many things such as war and love. Just because someone is atheist or agnostic doesn't mean they're apathetic. There are people who come here in search for a religion which they can believe in. A religion which might've converted fellow poker players and having something as massively in common, could that religion then be right for them?Exactly why would someone be bitter because of religion? Maybe you're just getting defensive because people rightfully question certain aspects of your religion..Also, this IS A RELIGION discussion forum, not a religion exclusive prayer club. Why would you question people coming here and discussing it when they're not religious? Comparing this to hockey is just silly. Hockey is not a world issue.Perhaps you think you're smarter than you really are. Do you realize that your curiosity and odd question might be ignited by a negative agenda?If anyone wonders most of my beliefs are geared towards Buddhism. If any "bitter" atheists or agnostics wants to ask me a question about it then I will answer, and not by asking them one back... Unfortunately not all religions have great tolerance and understanding for other belief systems and non-believers. Fact is that they are equal and might have found enlightenment in a different way and that I respect so I won't try to drive my values and beliefs upon them because obviously they have found their way! I found myself out of place as a catholic when I started noticing how non-christians were looked down upon and there was a certain "aboveness" in the air.

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I have been trying to tell Matt this very thought process for days upon days. We don't agree on much, but on this point you are right on. It's all about agenda, and spin. The KJV had one purpose- King James had the power to get it done even though the Catholics in power did not want the people to have acces to the Bible. When scholars proved incompetent, they were killed. When King James found out his marriage to his wife was not biblical- she was killed. He had no agenda except to get what he believed to be the word of God to the people. It's why I trust it.
This leads to problems though, I mean you say the scholars proved incompetent and they were killed, well seems sort of unbiblical to me (unless there is a "if one is incompetent to translate the bible to another language, kill them" which as far as I knew wasn't there). Also can I have an explaination on how they proved incompitent? Also I must ask why he didn't kill himself upon finding his marriage to be unbiblical?I mean the big reason I don't trust the KJV is that it takes literal poetic license over the translation.
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This leads to problems though, I mean you say the scholars proved incompetent and they were killed, well seems sort of unbiblical to me (unless there is a "if one is incompetent to translate the bible to another language, kill them" which as far as I knew wasn't there). Also can I have an explaination on how they proved incompitent? Also I must ask why he didn't kill himself upon finding his marriage to be unbiblical?I mean the big reason I don't trust the KJV is that it takes literal poetic license over the translation.
The bolded is what has always been a huge problem with the KJV and it was fixed to a certain extent with the NASB. The KJV was made to sound pretty but it isnt as accurate as it could have been. the NASB on the other hand was written with the intent to get the "best" possible word in place. That is where you will find the greatest difference. It is more often then not the same greek word used but the NASB will use a more correct english word in the translation. The main issue that comes up with the NASB is that until you get used to it, it can be difficult to read b/c the transition to english isnt always the smoothest. Thats when i recommend heading to the greek to understand what the sentence is supposed to say.
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Let me be clear right off the bat, I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am curious why so many of you who are agnostic or atheists frequent the religion forum? It seems to me that if you aren’t into religion you wouldn’t have any interest in what’s going on in here. I for one could care less about hockey. Most sports I am fanatical about, but I think hockey sucks, and I can’t think of any reason to check out the hockey forum. Some of you are bitter, some think you’re smarter than you are and think here is a place to show it, and some just want to argue and be adversarial. But for those that don’t fit any of the previous categories whats your reason?
I skipped this whole thread.. First off, how delighfully condscending Bitter, think you're so smart, and just like to argue.. LOL lovly way to have a discussion.The reason I come in here? For laughs.
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Let me be clear right off the bat, I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am curious why so many of you who are agnostic or atheists frequent the religion forum? It seems to me that if you aren’t into religion you wouldn’t have any interest in what’s going on in here. I for one could care less about hockey. Most sports I am fanatical about, but I think hockey sucks, and I can’t think of any reason to check out the hockey forum. Some of you are bitter, some think you’re smarter than you are and think here is a place to show it, and some just want to argue and be adversarial. But for those that don’t fit any of the previous categories whats your reason?
As someone who identifies as agnostic, I would say that I think of myself as a spiritual person. As a spiritual person I see myself on a journey to know my spirit and to know it's place in my experience of exsistence. I find that discussions of religion often have questions of the search for spirituality at the core of issue. Therefore, even though I believe the human conventions of most organized religion distract from my spiritual journey and therefore choose not to subscribe to any core set of beliefs laid out for me by others or any script that I myself haven't come to know of my own experience, I still find the core issues of spirituality found in these threads compelling and deeply interesting. It also allows me to be truely rspectful of others beliefs even though those beliefs are not my own and not what my spiritual journey has lead me to knoiw as my truth. Basicly I trust and believe that no person can know my spirit better then I and so what he prescribes for my spirit is a distraction from my own authentic truth. However I accept that through the journey of others I can learn more about my own journey. I just don't think it needs direct limits, conventions, or direction from anyone else but myself and my experience of exsistence.Bear Canada
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As someone who identifies as agnostic, I would say that I think of myself as a spiritual person. As a spiritual person I see myself on a journey to know my spirit and to know it's place in my experience of exsistence. I find that discussions of religion often have questions of the search for spirituality at the core of issue. Therefore, even though I believe the human conventions of most organized religion distract from my spiritual journey and therefore choose not to subscribe to any core set of beliefs laid out for me by others or any script that I myself haven't come to know of my own experience, I still find the core issues of spirituality found in these threads compelling and deeply interesting. It also allows me to be truely rspectful of others beliefs even though those beliefs are not my own and not what my spiritual journey has lead me to knoiw as my truth. Basicly I trust and believe that no person can know my spirit better then I and so what he prescribes for my spirit is a distraction from my own authentic truth. However I accept that through the journey of others I can learn more about my own journey. I just don't think it needs direct limits, conventions, or direction from anyone else but myself and my experience of exsistence.Bear Canada
I was really looking forward to some feedback to my contribution to this post. So far it looks like I am getting the final word and that was certainly not my intent.
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Ok please stop saying what you are doing is making logical conclusions. You are falling into a common trap that many people ignorant of formal mathematics fall into; let me once again try and explain where your mistake is, though given other's attempts, I'm not exactly optimistic."If A then B" is NOT the same thing as "If not A, then not B." Sometimes in language we say "if" when we really mean "if and only if," but that doesn't change what "if" actually means.A simple example: "If a number is divisible by four, then it is even." This is a true statement. But the statement "if a number is not divisible by 4, then it is not even" is not. For look at the number 6. It is not divisible by 4 but it is even. So thus your reasoning is flawed. Thus, any statement of the form "If you believe in Christ, then you go to heaven" says NOTHING about if you don't believe in Christ what happens to you. This may be an artifact of the language, the original passage may have meant "if and only if" but as written you cannot conclude what you are trying to conclude from statements of this form.
Is the Bible written in language or mathematics? This is the point. Although logically 'if' just means 'if'. Like you said, in language it doesn't. And the word you chose to use, 'sometimes', is not going far enough, because it should actually be 'often' or 'mostly'.
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Is the Bible written in language or mathematics? This is the point. Although logically 'if' just means 'if'. Like you said, in language it doesn't. And the word you chose to use, 'sometimes', is not going far enough, because it should actually be 'often' or 'mostly'.
You make a fair point. In my defense, I wrote the post to specifically counter Matt when he repeatedly said he was using "logic," but in ordinary language, I agree, most of the time, the statement "If you do x, you will get y" means also that if you do not do x, you do not get y. This of course brings up the interesting point that when trying to interpret the bible we also must guard against the fact that we are using modern and sometimes (at least in my case) abstract mathematical definitions for words that simply had different definitions thousands of years ago (of course they came from different languages as well, but even after being translated to English, English ain't what it used to be), and is yet another pitfall to trying to interpret it and figure out what God really meant in the first place (even if one is in the belief it was divinely inspired). If we even have questions as to what "if" means, this is a fairly daunting task.
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See, this is exactly why i'm agnostic. We have multiple perspectives, each believing they're correct and this is with the SAME religion. People become blinded by their own faith and interpret these ambiguous verses to mean what they have been taught. And when confronted with another interpretation or conflict, such inconsistency is easily dismissed by use of some argument of context, etc. But when someone uses a similar argument to contradict your own view/interpretation, you argue its strict, literal interpretation. In the end, each has merely a VIEW that no one knows is correct.I just don't believe that a strong argument exists that says any particular religious perspective is the "correct" view. To some extent that all comes down your own personal belief. I just cannot believe that ONE religion has the right answer and that all other people are going to hell.I figure i'll live my life in the way i think it should be. No one can say i'm a bad person and i help others whenever i can. And if whatever God i meet upon my death doesn't like that? Well, so be it. I cannot spend my time on earth worrying about what God thinks, especially when no one knows WHICH religion is correct, let alone the interpretation of that particular religion.
Can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it?I think people come here looking for answers. Whether it be to unanswerable questions, fear, smugness, faith, or the desire to help others. Each will have their own reason, and none is better than the other.
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As someone who identifies as agnostic, I would say that I think of myself as a spiritual person. As a spiritual person I see myself on a journey to know my spirit and to know it's place in my experience of exsistence. I find that discussions of religion often have questions of the search for spirituality at the core of issue. Therefore, even though I believe the human conventions of most organized religion distract from my spiritual journey and therefore choose not to subscribe to any core set of beliefs laid out for me by others or any script that I myself haven't come to know of my own experience, I still find the core issues of spirituality found in these threads compelling and deeply interesting. It also allows me to be truely rspectful of others beliefs even though those beliefs are not my own and not what my spiritual journey has lead me to knoiw as my truth. Basicly I trust and believe that no person can know my spirit better then I and so what he prescribes for my spirit is a distraction from my own authentic truth. However I accept that through the journey of others I can learn more about my own journey. I just don't think it needs direct limits, conventions, or direction from anyone else but myself and my experience of exsistence.Bear Canada
Not to disrespect your views or spiritual journey, but with my walk in Christ I am not dictated by someone's beliefs, values or a bible. See I too am on a spiritual journey which started out 7 years ago. I was never a Christian, Muslim or any major religion. In fact I never believed in a GOD nor a Devil, but that all changed in the year 2000 when I wanted to better understand myself and why I was put here on earth.. I chose to follow Jesus' beliefs because they completed me. Everything He taught spoke straight into my Spirit, which strengthen my respect for GOD and compelled me to not only believe in Jesus but also what He stood for. So its not that I am dictated by the beliefs of Jesus', its that His beliefs and mine are one in the same. When others see me I want them to see my Father in heaven;. Do I fall short at times, Yes, of course I do in my flesh but if you seen deep in my soul, you would see a deep burning desire for his love, which I feel on a min. by min. bases.See, the feeling I speak of, I ( or anyone else ) cant physically show you and you might not see it in me ( or anyone else ) because of the flaws I ( or anyone else ) tend to exhibit on the outside. However if you are truly on a walk to find yourself, maybe the selfishness of a "about me" attitude is what is causing that sense of void and incompleteness. Because what you are looking for in your journey keeps popping up before your eyes but you let some man or religion taught by man to stand in your way. No religion will ever be perfect due to the flaw of man; but if you became a Christian you could lead the way in teaching that people need to follow their hearts and not a man made religion.BTW the comment about the selfishness was meaning that you choose not to follow Christ because what He teaches restricts you from your other selfish beliefs, whatever they may be. This wasn’t a personal attack but just a general synapse of what the typical non-believer/new age believer thinks.
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Although I am not a regular of this forum (just an occasional lurker), I am an atheist that often gets involved in religious discussions on other forums, and this question pops up from time to time. Here's the best answer I have:Although I am not religious, religion affects my day-to-day life in ways that many people probably take for granted. It directly affects the lives of people around me, it affects the laws I am forced to abide in my society, it affects the common perception of morality that most people judge me by, it affects the music that I listen to, the books that I read, the politicians that I vote for, the rationale behind my friends and family going off to war, the language that I use, and the social context that I inhabit. To that end, the reference to hockey in the OP is a terrible analogy; it is quite possible to live one's life in a complete hockey vacuum, should one so choose, but it is not at all possible for someone, even a hardline atheist such as myself, to live one's life in a religion vacuum. Religion is too prevalent, and too concerned with projecting itself onto others, for that to be possible.On an intellectual level, I consider religion to be roughly comparable in rigor to, say, Astrology, or a belief in Santa Claus. To me, saying that one believes in God because of of things written in the bible strikes me as roughly comparable to saying that one believes in Hobbits because of the things written in the Lord of the Rings. To this end, I don't frequent Astrology forums because astrologists are not trying to get their superstitions taught as fact in public schools; I don't frequent forums dedicated to the mechanics of Santa Claus' workshop because wars are not being started in his name; I don't frequent Middle-Earth-Is-Real forums (if any actually exist, and chances are not bad at all that they do) because I don't have people banging on my door at odd hours of the morning to inquire as to whether or not I've found Frodo.A common grievance that believers make towards non-believers is "can't you just let us coexist in peace," and I think I'm speaking for a substantial percentage of nonbelievers when I say that nothing would make me happier.You first.

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Although I am not a regular of this forum (just an occasional lurker), I am an atheist that often gets involved in religious discussions on other forums, and this question pops up from time to time. Here's the best answer I have:Although I am not religious, religion affects my day-to-day life in ways that many people probably take for granted. It directly affects the lives of people around me, it affects the laws I am forced to abide in my society, it affects the common perception of morality that most people judge me by, it affects the music that I listen to, the books that I read, the politicians that I vote for, the rationale behind my friends and family going off to war, the language that I use, and the social context that I inhabit. To that end, the reference to hockey in the OP is a terrible analogy; it is quite possible to live one's life in a complete hockey vacuum, should one so choose, but it is not at all possible for someone, even a hardline atheist such as myself, to live one's life in a religion vacuum. Religion is too prevalent, and too concerned with projecting itself onto others, for that to be possible.On an intellectual level, I consider religion to be roughly comparable in rigor to, say, Astrology, or a belief in Santa Claus. To me, saying that one believes in God because of of things written in the bible strikes me as roughly comparable to saying that one believes in Hobbits because of the things written in the Lord of the Rings. To this end, I don't frequent Astrology forums because astrologists are not trying to get their superstitions taught as fact in public schools; I don't frequent forums dedicated to the mechanics of Santa Claus' workshop because wars are not being started in his name; I don't frequent Middle-Earth-Is-Real forums (if any actually exist, and chances are not bad at all that they do) because I don't have people banging on my door at odd hours of the morning to inquire as to whether or not I've found Frodo.A common grievance that believers make towards non-believers is "can't you just let us coexist in peace," and I think I'm speaking for a substantial percentage of nonbelievers when I say that nothing would make me happier.You first.
Show me an atheist and I'll show you a liar.... No one in the world could prove the non-existance of GOD or a creator. please refrain from saying your an atheist without fully understanding the meaning of the word.... Your more of a agnostic....
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