A Question For Agnostics & Atheists

[statedogg 0]

Let me be clear right off the bat, I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am curious why so many of you who are agnostic or atheists frequent the religion forum? It seems to me that if you aren’t into religion you wouldn’t have any interest in what’s going on in here. I for one could care less about hockey. Most sports I am fanatical about, but I think hockey sucks, and I can’t think of any reason to check out the hockey forum. Some of you are bitter, some think you’re smarter than you are and think here is a place to show it, and some just want to argue and be adversarial. But for those that don’t fit any of the previous categories whats your reason?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Because arguments are fun and the concept of religion is very interesting. It is interwoven with many other concepts that I find interesting (philosophy, physics, etc).I can only speak for myself, but I try to be respectful of threads that are devoted to religious people talking amongst themselves. But certain threads are meant to be a debate between the two sides, and those are the ones that I like to frequent.And, of course, I like to pretend I'm smarter than other people...

[FullMontyM1 0]

With the people "taking up the cross" so to speak on most of the threads, I can see why the agnostics and atheists come in here. Lots of the posts I've read so far have been laced with some of the most negative aspects of organized Christianity.I despise uninformed, uneducated, dogmatic contempt and self-righteousness as much as any atheist or agnostic.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

With the people "taking up the cross" so to speak on most of the threads, I can see why the agnostics and atheists come in here. Lots of the posts I've read so far have been laced with some of the most negative aspects of organized Christianity.I despise uninformed, uneducated, dogmatic contempt and self-righteousness as much as any atheist or agnostic.Monty

what i find ironic is that you have come in with a lot of unsupported views. Every view I lay down has biblical support for it

[FullMontyM1 0]

what i find ironic is that you have come in with a lot of unsupported views. Every view I lay down has biblical support for it

Every view I lay down has biblical support for it as well, we just happen to disagree dramatically.In addition, I do not find sole recourse in the Bible when I am searching for answers.The world is a complicated and wonderful place filled with interesting and good people. It is not a world filled with believers and non-believers.But, the world is filled with war.And that war is being fought between reactionary radicals and those that would have peace.So get behind me Satan.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Every view I lay down has biblical support for it as well, we just happen to disagree dramatically.In addition, I do not find sole recourse in the Bible when I am searching for answers.The world is a complicated and wonderful place filled with interesting and good people. It is not a world filled with believers and non-believers.But, the world is filled with war.And that war is being fought between reactionary radicals and those that would have peace.So get behind me Satan.Monty

Monty i have to say that I do question whether you are in fact a true believer. You say you can provide biblical verses. Then provide one for your thought that a nonbeliever can see heaven. The world is full of war yes? Do you think that Jesus would promote any of this war? Do you thing those crusades fought in His name were what He asked for? I dont think so

[FullMontyM1 0]

Monty i have to say that I do question whether you are in fact a true believer.

Didn't we already go over how it's not your place to judge that? Or was that the other guy?

You say you can provide biblical verses. Then provide one for your thought that a nonbeliever can see heaven.

Here you go:Romans 1:2: Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.You say, "We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth." Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God... By your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God' righteous judgement will be revealed.-- and here's the really important part ---There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

The world is full of war yes? Do you think that Jesus would promote any of this war? Do you thing those crusades fought in His name were what He asked for? I dont think so

Of course not. But your rhetoic is the kind of rhetoic that incites lesser men to violence.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Didn't we already go over how it's not your place to judge that? Or was that the other guy? Here you go:Romans 1:2: Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.You say, "We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth." Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God... By your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God' righteous judgement will be revealed.-- and here's the really important part ---There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.Of course not. But your rhetoic is the kind of rhetoic that incites lesser men to violence.

This is you avoiding the question. Am I judging you? No. am I questioning whether you are a true believer? Sure I am. But so far you have done nothing but bring questions. Do I have precedence for this? Check out Galatians and see who Paul is talkin about. He was talkin about the Judaizers who tried to add/change the bible just as you are doing. So do I have a right to call you out? Most certainly. If you are tryin to change the bible to fit what you want to believe and not to believe what the bible says then I will call you out everytime. That is not judging but forcing you to own up to the book you say you followmy rhetoric? B/c I said Jesus would not approve of people going to war in His name? If that incites war in your eyes then you might want to get your eyes checked.

[MDXS 0]

Because arguments are fun and the concept of religion is very interesting. It is interwoven with many other concepts that I find interesting (philosophy, physics, etc).I can only speak for myself, but I try to be respectful of threads that are devoted to religious people talking amongst themselves. But certain threads are meant to be a debate between the two sides, and those are the ones that I like to frequent.And, of course, I like to pretend I'm smarter than other people...

Pretty much my answer. I won't take the time to lay out the subtle differences.

[FullMontyM1 0]

This is you avoiding the question. Am I judging you? No. am I questioning whether you are a true believer? Sure I am. But so far you have done nothing but bring questions.

Questioning whether I am a true believer is judging me.To judge: To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration.I don't get upset when you judge me, it's water off a duck's back. I'm just pointing out you might want to be careful.

Do I have precedence for this? Check out Galatians and see who Paul is talkin about. He was talkin about the Judaizers who tried to add/change the bible just as you are doing. So do I have a right to call you out? Most certainly. If you are tryin to change the bible to fit what you want to believe and not to believe what the bible says then I will call you out everytime. That is not judging but forcing you to own up to the book you say you follow

I think this is where we are at loggerheads. You cannot claim that your interpretation is absolute, whether it is of your own creation, or from reading theologians, or from what your minister or priest told you. You can argue vehemently for your interpretation.But anything more, and you are substituting your world-view for God's world view. I don't claim that my interpretation is the only interpretation. I believe that my interpretation is preferrable to your interpretation. But that is as far as I will go. I do not presume to know God's will. I will presume to know my own heart, and what -you- say is God's will, I find, in my heart, repugnant.You cannot force me to own up to anything, for you are not my judge.

my rhetoric? B/c I said Jesus would not approve of people going to war in His name? If that incites war in your eyes then you might want to get your eyes checked.

No, because you say that it's your way or the highway. THAT is the kind of rhetoric that starts wars.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

Questioning whether I am a true believer is judging me.To judge: To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration.I don't get upset when you judge me, it's water off a duck's back. I'm just pointing out you might want to be careful.I think this is where we are at loggerheads. You cannot claim that your interpretation is absolute, whether it is of your own creation, or from reading theologians, or from what your minister or priest told you. You can argue vehemently for your interpretation.But anything more, and you are substituting your world-view for God's world view. I don't claim that my interpretation is the only interpretation. I believe that my interpretation is preferrable to your interpretation. But that is as far as I will go. I do not presume to know God's will. I will presume to know my own heart, and what -you- say is God's will, I find, in my heart, repugnant.You cannot force me to own up to anything, for you are not my judge.No, because you say that it's your way or the highway. THAT is the kind of rhetoric that starts wars.Monty

Do I claim your interpretation is unbiblical? Yes and so far you have done nothing to provide support for anything you believe1. So far we are waiting on you to provide the verses that say a nonbeliever can enter heaven. 2. Also your "dating" of the books of the bible is kinda messed up. If I understand this correctly. The gospels which Paul then used in his letters were written after Pauls death? Do you not see something wrong with that? How was 2 Peter written after Peters death? As for me judging you. If you consider yourself a christian you are to be judged:1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 1 Corinthians 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. so yes, if you want to come in and say something then you are open to judgment on it. WHen you come in preaching a false gospel I will force you to back it up (which you wont do). If you have verses to support your views supply them. Otherwise please admit you dont have any support.

[Petoria 0]

Do I claim your interpretation is unbiblical? Yes and so far you have done nothing to provide support for anything you believeSo far we are waiting on you to provide the verses that say a nonbeliever can enter heaven. As for me judging you. If you consider yourself a christian you are to be judged:1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 1 Corinthians 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. so yes, if you want to come in and say something then you are open to judgment on it. WHen you come in preaching a false gospel I will force you to back it up (which you wont do). If you have verses to support your views supply them. Otherwise please admit you dont have any support.

I respect your opinion Mattnxc, but you're coming off as a bit of a radical in this thread.Also, how is it not a contradiction when you provide the above verses from Corinthians, and then there are verses from John and Matthew such as:"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." --Matthew 7:1"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son," --- John 5:22What's with that?

[Mattnxtc 0]

I respect your opinion Mattnxc, but you're coming off as a bit of a radical in this thread.Also, how is it not a contradiction when you provide the above verses from Corinthians, and then there are verses from John and Matthew such as:"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." --Matthew 7:1"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son," --- John 5:22What's with that?

Yeah I get a bit peeved when people try to change the bible b/c they want it to fit their own beliefs. I dont mind discussion the bible but dont add to it. Thats all I askAs for the contradiction. Its not one. Notice the verses. Dont judge those outside the church. But we must hold people accountable inside the church. You must force somebody to defend what they say otherwise you end up with either a cult or a situation like the Catholic Church where so many people come off with a bad feeling about it. Those verses in particular relate to us judging others as though we were better than them. Thats not the judgment that goes on in the church. Within the church you definately want to call out somebody speakin a false doctrine (Galatians is a whole letter on this sole purpose). If we did not hold people accountable for their beliefs/actions then christianity would never have survived as long as it has in this world

[FullMontyM1 0]

So far we are waiting on you to provide the verses that say a nonbeliever can enter heaven.

I am waiting for a verse that says a nonbeliever can not enter heaven. The burden of proof is on you.

Yeah I get a bit peeved when people try to change the bible b/c they want it to fit their own beliefs. I dont mind discussion the bible but dont add to it. Thats all I askAs for the contradiction. Its not one. Notice the verses. Dont judge those outside the church. But we must hold people accountable inside the church. You must force somebody to defend what they say otherwise you end up with either a cult or a situation like the Catholic Church where so many people come off with a bad feeling about it. Those verses in particular relate to us judging others as though we were better than them. Thats not the judgment that goes on in the church. Within the church you definately want to call out somebody speakin a false doctrine (Galatians is a whole letter on this sole purpose). If we did not hold people accountable for their beliefs/actions then christianity would never have survived as long as it has in this world

You are saying people are trying to change the Bible.I say it is you who is trying to bend the Bible to support your own beliefs.You say you must force somebody to defend what they say otherwise you end up with either a cult or a situation like the Catholic Church, where so many people come off with a bad feeling about it.Where is the Bible verse that supports this action?How can you equate a "cult" with a "situation like the Catholic Church?"The Catholic Church is the rock. St. Peter. Upon which....Almost all other churches are born out of radical religious rebellion in England in the 17th century. This isn't to denigrate them, but their members should hardly denigrate the Catholic Church either.Your view is extremely radical. I am not judging you for holding such a view. But I am going to try and help you.You are -not- doing the Christian cause any good by alienating the vast majority of the people out there.To believe that the dogma of your particular group is the definitive answer on what God's will is, well that's for the lack of a better word, arrogant.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I am waiting for a verse that says a nonbeliever can not enter heaven. The burden of proof is on you.

your kidding right? John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 1 Peter 4:4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 1Peter 4:5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; i think thats plenty for you. Notice what it says. Those who dont believe will be judged. There is no way around it.

ou are saying people are trying to change the Bible.I say it is you who is trying to bend the Bible to support your own beliefs.You say you must force somebody to defend what they say otherwise you end up with either a cult or a situation like the Catholic Church, where so many people come off with a bad feeling about it.Where is the Bible verse that supports this action?

right here:1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."Not a single one of my views is radical. You come on to this forum with your views. You cant provide any biblical proof of anything you say and then try to avoid answering them. I provide a biblical passage for what I say. Can you say the same?

[Petoria 0]

I think every Christian denomination bends the Bible to how they see fit, simply bc the different sects were started by people. If God did inspire the writing of the Bible, then how can any man possibly interpret what he really meant.We can argue about, but it is arrogant to believe that we understand what God was thinking.

[Mattnxtc 0]

I think every Christian denomination bends the Bible to how they see fit, simply bc the different sects were started by people. If God did inspire the writing of the Bible, then how can any man possibly interpret what he really meant.We can argue about, but it is arrogant to believe that we understand what God was thinking.

Yes it is arrogant to assume we "understand" God. But it is also arrogant to attempt to add to the bible what isnt there.

[Petoria 0]

Yes it is arrogant to assume we "understand" God. But it is also arrogant to attempt to add to the bible what isnt there.

Citing Bible verses in an argument is doing exactly that, assuming you understand God.Also, how can we put any stake in the Bible if there is so much disagreement about the meaning of so many verses?

[Mattnxtc 0]

Citing Bible verses in an argument is doing exactly that, assuming you understand God.Also, how can we put any stake in the Bible if there is so much disagreement about the meaning of so many verses?

some of the bible is very easy to understand. The rest is open to interpretation but even then you an get a good idea of what is correct. So much disagreement exists b/c people who arent qualified attempt to "interprete" the bible. Look at what Fullmonty has done so far. He has "interpreted" the bible the way he wants it yet it doesnt stand up to any questioning. This is unfortunate but a result of others tryin to interprete what they have little understanding of

[FullMontyM1 0]

Let's do them one by oneLet me also preface this by saying something...I am not arguing that someone that hates God is going to heaven, though I am pretty sure God could find it in himself to save them anyways (you may disagree). I am saying that the verses you are providing to prove that people who have not been exposed to Christianity will not be saved, do not support that hypothesis.John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.AS in the other thread, this verse states that those that believe will be saved. That does not make the converse true, that those that don't believe will be saved. This is basic, freshman logic class right here. This quote has nothing to do with a) non-believers or B) people who have not yet had the opportunity to believe.John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." AS in the other thread, this verse states that those that believe will be saved, and that those who don't OBEY will not see life but the wrath of God. This has zilch to do with people who have not been given the opportunity to obey. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; This is a comment on those who have faith, and how they were saved, it is not relevant to people without faith or people who do not know what faith is.Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.I give a more extensive analysis of John 14 in the other thread, go check it out there.Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.A statement of an aspect of God that doesn't shed any particular light on the current subject.Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; This is your best one. Unfortunately, everyone is a sinner, so everyone is either getting perished or judged. So it doesn't do us much good in terms of debating what happens to people who don't believe or who haven't been given the opportunity to believe.

i think thats plenty for you. Notice what it says. Those who dont believe will be right here:judged. There is no way around it.

None of your verses say what you think they say. I am not sure if you are accidentally or intentionally reading them incorrectly. Perhaps you have been taught this. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with logical contructions as they relate to sentences. Regardless, you've not provided one ounce of support for your statements.1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."This verse applies to you as much as it applies to me.

Not a single one of my views is radical.

We shall have to differ on this point.

You come on to this forum with your views. You cant provide any biblical proof of anything you say and then try to avoid answering them. I provide a biblical passage for what I say. Can you say the same?

I am not claiming that my interpretation is the only interpretation, therefore the burden of proof I bear is much less than that which you bear. Despite this, you have failed to meet your burden of proof, and I have responded with Biblical verses of my own. But this is not a verse-throwing contest. This is a debate about whether our Christian God is a forgiving, all-powerful creator who will do as he sees fit with all of the sinners (me included) on this little planet, or whether he is an unforgiving God who adheres to your set of rules, rules not created by God, but by man,Render unto CaesarMonty

[Petoria 0]

some of the bible is very easy to understand. The rest is open to interpretation but even then you an get a good idea of what is correct. So much disagreement exists b/c people who arent qualified attempt to "interprete" the bible. Look at what Fullmonty has done so far. He has "interpreted" the bible the way he wants it yet it doesnt stand up to any questioning. This is unfortunate but a result of others tryin to interprete what they have little understanding of

How can we judge who is interpreting it correctly? Do you see where I'm going with this? It basically turns into an endless line of questions, that address the same point.Think about it, but I have class in the morning and need to get some sleep. Later.

[Canada 0]

Let me be clear right off the bat, I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am curious why so many of you who are agnostic or atheists frequent the religion forum? It seems to me that if you aren’t into religion you wouldn’t have any interest in what’s going on in here. I for one could care less about hockey. Most sports I am fanatical about, but I think hockey sucks, and I can’t think of any reason to check out the hockey forum. Some of you are bitter, some think you’re smarter than you are and think here is a place to show it, and some just want to argue and be adversarial. But for those that don’t fit any of the previous categories whats your reason?

I have a low tolerance for fools. Its a charactrer flaw I'm sure, but hey whatever. So I'm anti-stupidity.I'm not suggesting for a moment that followers of religion are stupid, I have respect for those that can be comfortable in their faith.It's when someone makes a post that is illogical or flat out wrong that I like to join in. It's no coincidence that you get a lot of these types of posts in a religous forum, because most religions discourage thinking and encourage reguritation on various subjects to a certain extent. That said, there are posters here that are willing to think for themselves and realise they don't have to compromise their faith. Mattnxtc is a good example of someone who occasionaly allows himself to explore.I believe that any day you can encourage someone to think for themselves and not blindly follow what is told to them by their teachers, peers, politicians or church is a good day. If the faithful had more people like Georges Lemaitre humanity would only benefit.Of course it goes without saying (but I'll say it just to keep both sides happy ) that if the scientific community had more people like Georges Lemaitre humanity would only benefitAs for 'how' I post, I'll happily concede that when posting in this forum I come across as argumentative, aggressive and adversarial, but I do have a motive for it

[copernicus 0]

Let me be clear right off the bat, I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am curious why so many of you who are agnostic or atheists frequent the religion forum? It seems to me that if you aren’t into religion you wouldn’t have any interest in what’s going on in here. I for one could care less about hockey. Most sports I am fanatical about, but I think hockey sucks, and I can’t think of any reason to check out the hockey forum. Some of you are bitter, some think you’re smarter than you are and think here is a place to show it, and some just want to argue and be adversarial. But for those that don’t fit any of the previous categories whats your reason?

This post is prima facie evidence that I am smarter than you.Hockey rules

I have a low tolerance for fools. Its a charactrer flaw I'm sure, but hey whatever. So I'm anti-stupidity.I'm not suggesting for a moment that followers of religion are stupid, I have respect for those that can be comfortable in their faith.It's when someone makes a post that is illogical or flat out wrong that I like to join in. It's no coincidence that you get a lot of these types of posts in a religous forum, because most religions discourage thinking and encourage reguritation on various subjects to a certain extent. That said, there are posters here that are willing to think for themselves and realise they don't have to compromise their faith. Mattnxtc is a good example of someone who occasionaly allows himself to explore.I believe that any day you can encourage someone to think for themselves and not blindly follow what is told to them by their teachers, peers, politicians or church is a good day. If the faithful had more people like Georges Lemaitre humanity would only benefit.Of course it goes without saying (but I'll say it just to keep both sides happy ) that if the scientific community had more people like Georges Lemaitre humanity would only benefitAs for 'how' I post, I'll happily concede that when posting in this forum I come across as argumentative, aggressive and adversarial, but I do have a motive for it

You need to read his seemingly inquistive and open minded posts more critically. It was obvious in the first evolution thread I read here that he attempts to give that appearance in an attempt to trap a casual responder and come back with a "gotcha".

[Farnan 0]

You need to read his seemingly inquistive and open minded posts more critically. It was obvious in the first evolution thread I read here that he attempts to give that appearance in an attempt to trap a casual responder and come back with a "gotcha".

[statedogg 0]

I have a low tolerance for fools. Its a charactrer flaw I'm sure, but hey whatever. So I'm anti-stupidity.

I can relate . It's actually something that I pray about, penitence with idiots.

It's when someone makes a post that is illogical or flat out wrong that I like to join in. It's no coincidence that you get a lot of these types of posts in a religous forum, because most religions discourage thinking and encourage reguritation on various subjects to a certain extent.

Well person/group/religion that doesn't encourage thinking is foolish, and won't last the test of time. I for one question everything and everybody. It may get me in trouble one day, as sometimes I've been warned about questioning authority in the wrong way or at the wrong time. That’s OK with me though, since I don't see anytime that is wrong to question something that I disagree with. But back to the point, the Bible actually encourages people to think for themselves throughout. It encourages you to seek God in every decision you make, and promises answers for all of life’s problems lie in the Bible. Now since God doesn't literally speak to us we have to read for ourselves and interpret There are blind followers of every type, religious, agnostic, political, etc. I hope you don't assume that most religious people don’t think for themselves. If your past experiences tell you that is the case I'd say your sample consisted of dumb people in general and it wasn't the religion that made them dumb. I admit its a stereotype that is difficult to see past and it was probably founded on some truths. It wasn't too long ago that many couldn't read or didn't have access to the Bible in the vernacular. So in a sense they were somewhat being blind followers. Blind followers in my experience can preach a good game, but many haven't really ever come to the foot of the cross, so to say. When you find yourself there you have come through personal experiences, not what you heard in Sunday service. I hope everyone can learn to see past the stereotypes that Christians get.Similarly, I think that agnostics face stereotypes also. Many are delusionally arrogant, and many are just afraid of things that they can't control or explain. But I especially respect those that don't fit those stereotypes, they interest me.

This post is prima facie evidence that I am smarter than you.Hockey rules

I can't decide if I think you are being serious or not.