Proof Of God/proof Of Jesus

[crowTrobot 2]

And I was looking for a url from a site that wasn't OBVIOUSLY biased. Although I don't know if one exists.

how specifically was the survey biased?

[Vladimir Lenin 0]

god is a non existent entity that was created so that the human race could be fooled into obeying a monarchial ruling class. Religion was the earliest form of capitialism and for the human race to achieve the next state of enlightenment, one needs to shed the shackles of capitialism and look towards communism. Religion keeps the proletariat down and keeps them dumb, that is why it is the opiate of the masses

[brvheart 1,752]

no, you implied that when you stated that the fact of his conversion to theism by itself is significant information.

Is it not significant? Why would it be logical for the leader of the worldwide atheist movement to make such a declaration? I believe it's extremely significant.

[brvheart 1,752]

Letter from Antony Flew on Darwinism and TheologyProfessor Antony Flew, who is famous for his philosophical arguments in favour of atheism, has contributed these tantalising comments to the debate.Dear Editor,The publication of ‘The Alleged Fallacies of Evolutionary Theory’ by Massimo Pigliucci and others in Issue 46 of Philosophy Now provides a convenient occasion for pointing out the limits of the negative theological implications of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. In the fourteenth and final chapter of The Origin of Species Darwin himself – apart from noticing certain short (a mere handful of million years long) geological periods in which the fossil record reveals the occurrence of inexplicably rapid evolution – wrote: “Analogy would lead me one step further, namely to the belief that all animals and plants have descended from one prototype.... Therefore I should infer from analogy that probably all the organic beings that have lived on the earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed.”Probably Darwin himself believed that life was miraculously breathed into that primordial form of not always consistently reproducing life by God, though not the revealed God of then contemporary Christianity, who had predestined so many of Darwin’s friends and family to an eternity of extreme torture.But the evidential situation of natural (as opposed to revealed) theology has been transformed in the more than fifty years since Watson and Crick won the Nobel Prize for their discovery of the double helix structure of DNA. It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism.I will here confine myself to recommending two books by individuals who started as believers in two different revealed religions. The author of the first started as, and remains, a Protestant Christian. The author of the second started as, and remains, an Orthodox Jew. The first book is Roy Abraham Varghese’s The Wonderful World: A Journey from Modern Science to the Mind of God (Fountain Hills, Arizona;Tyr Publishing 2003). The second book is Gerald L Schroeder’s The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth (Touchstone; New York 2001)Anyone who should happen to want to know what I myself now believe will have to wait until the publication, promised for early 2005, by Prometheus of Amherst, NY of the final edition of my God and Philosophy with a new introduction of it as ‘an historical relic’. That book was a study of the arguments for Christian theism, first published in 1966 in various editions in both hardcover andpaperback in both the USA and the UK. My own commitment then as a philosopher who was also areligious unbeliever was and remains that of Plato’s Socrates: “We must follow the argument wherever it leads.”Yours,Antony Flew

no, you implied that when you stated that the fact of his conversion to theism by itself is significant information.

If "Secular Web", a leading atheist website, thinks it's significant, it probably is.Mind you, this website is an atheist website, and I disagree with everything found there... but I'm not so close minded that I won't study views that are opposite of mine.

god is a non existent entity that was created so that the human race could be fooled into obeying a monarchial ruling class. Religion was the earliest form of capitialism and for the human race to achieve the next state of enlightenment, one needs to shed the shackles of capitialism and look towards communism. Religion keeps the proletariat down and keeps them dumb, that is why it is the opiate of the masses

The above quote means...1) you are an all knowing God2) you are insaneFurther, Jesus was in a group, the Jews, that were being oppressed by the Romans, so the bolded part is untrue.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I don't know about Anthony Flew. No true philosopher would think like that.

[crowTrobot 2]

If "Secular Web", a leading atheist website, thinks it's significant, it probably is.

they certainly would consider his conversion a significant threat to their agenda due to his prior status, which is probably why that in depth response was written. however obviously they don't consider his views of any intellectual/philosophical significance. on the contrary it sounds like they think he's being stupid (or went insane or something).

[copernicus 0]

they certainly would consider his conversion a significant threat to their agenda due to his prior status, which is probably why that in depth response was written. however obviously they don't consider his views of any intellectual/philosophical significance. on the contrary it sounds like they think he's being stupid (or went insane or something).

or being wishy washy about what he believes and the logical underpinnings for his "conversion" The original interview posted clearly shows Flew's reluctance to be pinned down to a belief, since at one point he claims deism, but allows the interviewer to call him a theist.

[rkard 0]

How could you distinguish between Jesus and Superman? Kryptonite, sorry, this is then an acceptable proof to me also.

What is Jesus is Superman

[Canada 0]

or being wishy washy about what he believes and the logical underpinnings for his "conversion" The original interview posted clearly shows Flew's reluctance to be pinned down to a belief, since at one point he claims deism, but allows the interviewer to call him a theist.

Of course answers to these questions and more are all revealed when his book comes out, which we can buy from...No wiat surely that couldn't be a motive.Could it?I mean surely nobody has ever tried to make money out of religion?

[Jadaki 0]

for a long time the majority of the world felt the earth was flat...what happened with that one? Ignorance isnt an excuse

The same could be said about people who believe in the bible.I tend to stay out of these conversations, but I am bored today and wanted to read something different so I'll interject.To me (a non-believer) you need to show me proof god exists to change my mind. The burden of proof is on the people telling me that a god exists. I don't have to disprove something that has not been proven.

[brvheart 1,752]

The same could be said about people who believe in the bible.I tend to stay out of these conversations, but I am bored today and wanted to read something different so I'll interject.To me (a non-believer) you need to show me proof god exists to change my mind. The burden of proof is on the people telling me that a god exists. I don't have to disprove something that has not been proven.

Your post makes total sense, but from my perspective I don't need to bother proving anything. I'm not here to 'win' an argument, or 'prove' God exists. I merely need to tell people what I know to be true, and hope that they in turn see that it's possible, and then in turn, become followers of Jesus and go to heaven. This isn't for my glory, of course, and I don't want your credit card number. I just want all of you to be in heaven someday.

[hotbacon 0]

Your post makes total sense, but from my perspective I don't need to bother proving anything. I'm not here to 'win' an argument, or 'prove' God exists. I merely need to tell people what I know to be true, and hope that they in turn see that it's possible, and then in turn, become followers of Jesus and go to heaven. This isn't for my glory, of course, and I don't want your credit card number. I just want all of you to be in heaven someday.

You'd really convince us to believe in Jesus and go to heaven if you could prove it.If you really want us to go to heaven, you'd do it.Otherwise, to us, it looks just as silly as if I preached to you about how I know that the easter bunny created the universe and the only way into heaven is stuffing easter eggs up your ***. By the way, you'll need a tub of butter and some anesthetic.Just trying to get you into heaven, bro.

[brvheart 1,752]

You'd really convince us to believe in Jesus and go to heaven if you could prove it.If you really want us to go to heaven, you'd do it.Otherwise, to us, it looks just as silly as if I preached to you about how I know that the easter bunny created the universe and the only way into heaven is stuffing easter eggs up your ***. By the way, you'll need a tub of butter and some anesthetic.Just trying to get you into heaven, bro.

Sure, I understand what you mean. Problem is, you can't prove much of anything that you can't see, especially if you don't want to see it. Which is the problem. Good post.

[crowTrobot 2]

Problem is, you can't prove much of anything that you can't see, especially is you don't want to see it.

didn't need to add that last part. both sides think the other doesn't want to see the truth, so it's pointless.

[SunDrop 0]

What if Jesus is Superman

I bet Jesus would look hot in Spandex.

[brvheart 1,752]

I bet Jesus would look hot in Spandex.

[Jadaki 0]

Your post makes total sense, but from my perspective I don't need to bother proving anything. I'm not here to 'win' an argument, or 'prove' God exists.

Yes my post makes sense. The reason you don't need to bother proving it is because you simply can not do so. Simple logic dictates that you can not "win" or "prove" anything when the best arguement for your side of the discussion is "I believe".

I merely need to tell people what I know to be true, and hope that they in turn see that it's possible, and then in turn, become followers of Jesus and go to heaven. This isn't for my glory, of course, and I don't want your credit card number. I just want all of you to be in heaven someday.

How do you know it's true? Faith does not equal truth, I hope you have a better anwser than that.Thanks for looking out for my post death experience, though I am fairly confident I will just become worm food. The bright side of that being that the worm who ate me will get caught by some guy in a bait shop and sold to some other guy who will use it to teach his kid to fish and maybe give him a few life lessons during the fishing which will make him a better person. Hopefully the worm, now larger and more plump do to having me for dinner, will help them catch a nice big fish and feed thier family. Then I will complete my cycle in the great circle of life.

[copernicus 0]

Yes my post makes sense. The reason you don't need to bother proving it is because you simply can not do so. Simple logic dictates that you can not "win" or "prove" anything when the best arguement for your side of the discussion is "I believe".How do you know it's true? Faith does not equal truth, I hope you have a better anwser than that.Thanks for looking out for my post death experience, though I am fairly confident I will just become worm food. The bright side of that being that the worm who ate me will get caught by some guy in a bait shop and sold to some other guy who will use it to teach his kid to fish and maybe give him a few life lessons during the fishing which will make him a better person. Hopefully the worm, now larger and more plump do to having me for dinner, will help them catch a nice big fish and feed thier family. Then I will complete my cycle in the great circle of life.

Just be aware you are passing up the opporunity to become food for a holy fish that would have gone to that great Sushi bar in the sky.

[brvheart 1,752]

Yes my post makes sense. The reason you don't need to bother proving it is because you simply can not do so. Simple logic dictates that you can not "win" or "prove" anything when the best arguement for your side of the discussion is "I believe".

Are you not also believing that I am wrong? Prove that I am. I'm telling you that I know the God is real and that you can go to heaven through the death of Jesus. You can choose to study the Bible and believe.. or you can choose to reject it and continue assuming believers are idiots. It's up to you. And I was being serious on your last post when I said it was good and the it made sense from your perspective. I'm not sure why you felt that you needed to be sarcastic.

How do you know it's true? Faith does not equal truth, I hope you have a better anwser than that.

I agree, faith does not equal truth. And like I was saying before, I'm not here to convince you of anything, so the ball isn't in my court so to speak. I'm not trying to 'win'. I know God is real, I know that Jesus died for me, and I can tell you. But then the ball is in your court. The fact is, is I am not God... and I'm not nearly as intelligent as most of you guys, so how could I possibly convince you of anything?---18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"(Job 5:13); 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."(Psalm 94:11)---

Thanks for looking out for my post death experience, though I am fairly confident I will just become worm food. The bright side of that being that the worm who ate me will get caught by some guy in a bait shop and sold to some other guy who will use it to teach his kid to fish and maybe give him a few life lessons during the fishing which will make him a better person. Hopefully the worm, now larger and more plump do to having me for dinner, will help them catch a nice big fish and feed thier family. Then I will complete my cycle in the great circle of life.

While I'm sure it's very comforting for you to know there is just an end, I'm here to tell you good and bad news. There is no end. Also, I know it's been said before, but it's absolutely true. If you're right, then I'm worm food. If I'm right, you're in trouble. And it's my desire for all of you to be heaven someday.

Just be aware you are passing up the opporunity to become food for a holy fish that would have gone to that great Sushi bar in the sky.

Telling people about Jesus isn't a contest, in anyway.

[copernicus 0]

isn't a contest, in anyway.

Actually it is a sales contest in the long run. The church gets the earthly rewards, and you get yours in heaven. Better than a Ponzi scheme.

[hotbacon 0]

Also, I know it's been said before, but it's absolutely true. If you're right, then I'm worm food. If I'm right, you're in trouble. And it's my desire for all of you to be heaven someday.Telling people about Jesus isn't a contest, in anyway.

And if my friend Jim Bob, the guy who believes atheists go to heaven and theists go to hell, is right, you're in trouble.

[copernicus 0]

And if my friend Jim Bob, the guy who believes atheists go to heaven and theists go to hell, is right, you're in trouble.

Ask Jim Bob if thats ALL atheists, or just those of us who lead moral and ethical lives without the lure of eternal rewards.

[Jadaki 0]

Are you not also believing that I am wrong?

No. See thats the thing, there has to be something to believe in, and I tend not to just believe anything I read. Last I checked, any random jackass can pick up a pen, write a book, and start a religion. I thought about doing it for fun, I was even gonna be nice and only ask for 5% of your income as a tithe. Heaven sounds boring anyway, how about a hot tub filled with all the hottest women you ever desired and a big turkey sandwhich. I promise this to you apon your death, just pray to me. What I am offering you in your afterlife is just as feasable as what the bible is reporting that God/Jesus is offering.

Prove that I am. I'm telling you that I know the God is real and that you can go to heaven through the death of Jesus.

What makes you so sure, where is your evidence to support this?

You can choose to study the Bible and believe.. or you can choose to reject it and continue assuming believers are idiots. It's up to you. And I was being serious on your last post when I said it was good and the it made sense from your perspective. I'm not sure why you felt that you needed to be sarcastic. I agree, faith does not equal truth. And like I was saying before, I'm not here to convince you of anything, so the ball isn't in my court so to speak. I'm not trying to 'win'. I know God is real, I know that Jesus died for me, and I can tell you. But then the ball is in your court. The fact is, is I am not God... and I'm not nearly as intelligent as most of you guys, so how could I possibly convince you of anything?

I don't assume believers are idiots. My experience tells me one of two things. First being that believers either have this need to feel more important than they are, and can't accept that they are mortal so they reach to believe in a afterlife. Or, they generally do something so horrible that they can't deal with it and turn to religion as a coping mechanism. In fact, I would venture to say that orgainised religion is the biggest coping mechanism known to man. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I have no ill will toward you. I just want to find someone who makes the claims you do and can anwser the simple question about providing proof.

While I'm sure it's very comforting for you to know there is just an end, I'm here to tell you good and bad news. There is no end. Also, I know it's been said before, but it's absolutely true. If you're right, then I'm worm food. If I'm right, you're in trouble. And it's my desire for all of you to be heaven someday.Telling people about Jesus isn't a contest, in anyway.

I don't need comfort. I am perfectly fine accepting that once I am dead, that's it for me. It's called being a realist. As far as the "if your right/if I'm right agruement" thats the atypical response that believers give. Do you discuss things like that with your boss/kids/family/coworkers? That level of reasoning is elementary level at best, do you see why?Also, I'm pretty sure most people know about Jesus. History is littered with the corpses of men women and children who didn't know about him but where "taught" by christians. Hell of a lesson, no pun intended.

[brvheart 1,752]

And if my friend Jim Bob, the guy who believes atheists go to heaven and theists go to hell, is right, you're in trouble.

Good point, too bad Jim Bob doesn't exist.

[Farnan 0]

Good point, too bad Jim Bob doesn't exist.

Oh the irony.