Automatic Card Shufflers

[Wonkawillie77 0]

I have become increasingly distressed over the proliferation of automatic card shufflers in poker rooms across the country. Has no one seen the actual trouble that they cause? ACS were installed to speed up the game and make more rakes for the house by increasing the number hands dealt per hour. And, while this may be true that the actual number of hands dealt per hour may have increased somewhat the problems that they cause far out weight this advantage. The big problem that the ACS machines cause is that they stack the deck. Any mechanical device can and does develop a pattern and even though the button moves and the decks change with each hand I have seen first hand how certain areas of the table will get better hands than the rest of the table. This is based on a full table with nine or ten players. What I have seen is that when the hand is over and the cards are mucked the cards are discarded in a certain way. Logically, the cards mucked first are the worst hands i.e.. 2 4 off-suit, and at the end of the hand, not counting the board, the cards mucked are the best hands i.e.. KK. When the dealer brings all the cards together and "stacks" then to put into the ACS the cards are now stacked with the best cards on top of the deck and the worst cards on the bottom. Now the deck is shuffled in such a manner that the "good" cards tend to stay together and like-wise so do the "bad" cards. Now, the shuffler does move cards randomly but those groups do tend to stay together and move up and down in the deck. Therefore, even though the deal moves with the button, the grouping of "good" cards - moving up and down in the deck - will tend to appear at the same area of the table provided the table remains constant with nine or ten players. Hence, this makes it very unfair when using ACS machines. Plus, like I said earlier, because it is a machine it will develop a "pattern" of shuffling over time. This also adds to the unfairness of ACS machines. I am in no way saying that there are any sinister motives by the casinos to promote any wrong doing whatsoever. They are simply working on a profit margin and are trying to increase the profits produced by providing as many hands and therefore as many rakes per hour that they can. That is the nature of the business and I understand that. However, I do want to play poker at a table where I have to take into consideration the performance of the ACS in addition to the regular thoughts of the game that go through any poker players mind. I am not the only one who feels this way. I have had discussions with poker players all over the country and Canada and many have expressed the same concerns. Some dealers, have also noticed the same thing and wondered if it was just chance or was it the machine. One dealer in particular started to wash the deck before putting it into the ACS and that seemed to help but was then told by his boss to stop because it slowed down the number of hands dealt per hour. One other comment, if these machines are so great why aren't they used in tournaments like the WSOP? I think we all know the answer to that one.

[Youcantwin77 0]

...And this is what happens when people get reads on you. You lose your money and look for anything to put the blame on. It coulnd't be your fault you lost money.....it's the machine in the table....Even with human shufflers people go on rushes....winning 4, 5, even 6 0r 7 hands in a row.Golfer do this all the time. They shot bad rounds and figure they can't have a bad swing it must be the clubs. I used to caddie an have seen golfers go through up to 3 sets of clubs in a year........That's $3000 or so that could have been spent on lessons. You have to wait out your hands buddy. You can sit for hours and not get a playable hand, while the guy across form you gets dealt hand after hand.

[mtdesmoines 3]

This repeated post brought to you by Hand Shufflers Of America.

[Wonkawillie77 0]

...And this is what happens when people get reads on you. You lose your money and look for anything to put the blame on. It coulnd't be your fault you lost money.....it's the machine in the table....Even with human shufflers people go on rushes....winning 4, 5, even 6 0r 7 hands in a row.Golfer do this all the time. They shot bad rounds and figure they can't have a bad swing it must be the clubs. I used to caddie an have seen golfers go through up to 3 sets of clubs in a year........That's $3000 or so that could have been spent on lessons. You have to wait out your hands buddy. You can sit for hours and not get a playable hand, while the guy across form you gets dealt hand after hand.

sorry... but what you have stated is not the case.I am not "blaming the equipment". this is an issue I have discussed with other players all over the US.... and anything mechanical, can after time, develop a memory and different "wear spots" which affect the results of a machine, be it an ACS or an automobile. if it's mechanical, normal wear and tear WILL affect the outcome and whether u want to believe it or not it does happen and this is what I am talking about.

[Wonkawillie77 0]

...And this is what happens when people get reads on you. You lose your money and look for anything to put the blame on. It coulnd't be your fault you lost money.....it's the machine in the table....Even with human shufflers people go on rushes....winning 4, 5, even 6 0r 7 hands in a row.Golfer do this all the time. They shot bad rounds and figure they can't have a bad swing it must be the clubs. I used to caddie an have seen golfers go through up to 3 sets of clubs in a year........That's $3000 or so that could have been spent on lessons. You have to wait out your hands buddy. You can sit for hours and not get a playable hand, while the guy across form you gets dealt hand after hand.

I would also like to point out that my observations have come from playing thousands of hands in poker rooms all over the country and not just one bad session which caused me to blame to equipment. But thank you for assuming that I was "read" and took some bad beats and that was the reason why I wrote my original observations.Along those lines of thinking you must have been a heck of a caddie. Let me ask you, if you make such rash observations without taking all of the facts into consideration or at the very least asking me what I based my observations on in regards to ACS' do you actually play poker in brick and mortar rooms or are you one of those poker wannbes who watch it on TV and think they have all the answers after two nights of the WPT? If you play poker like you jump to conclusions I hope you have a big bankroll.......buddy.

[KHSPoker21 0]

I would also like to point out that my observations have come from playing thousands of hands in poker rooms all over the country

Wow i didn't realize we were talking with a true professional rounder....your opinion on card shufflers is now completely valid.

[Wonkawillie77 0]

Wow i didn't realize we were talking with a true professional rounder....your opinion on card shufflers is now completely valid.

sarcasm aside..... this is something that I have had discussion about with pros all over the country... and I am not talking about the TV pros...... I mean the ones who day after day grind out a living in the brick and mortar rooms..... I am no pro but I love the game and travel and play when ever I can.Also.... when a deck is shuffled correctly seven times by hand it is considered properly shuffled.

[mtdesmoines 3]

sarcasm aside..... this is something that I have had discussion about with pros all over the country... and I am not talking about the TV pros...... I mean the ones who day after day grind out a living in the brick and mortar rooms..... I am no pro but I love the game and travel and play when ever I can.Also.... when a deck is shuffled correctly seven times by hand it is considered properly shuffled.

I almost trust the automatic shuffler more than human hands when I walk into a poker room and sit down and the dealer and five or six players are all talking about the picnic they went on last Sunday. That's not an accusation, just an observation.

[dagat 0]

Yes, B&M cardrooms are rigged, just like online. Here's a test: if you can formulate a strategy to take advantage of these "stacked" decks and thereby get better cards than what would normally be expected, then your theory is correct.Otherwise, the shufflers are doing exactly what they're designed to do - spit out cards randomly.Disclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with the fact that I own and am profiting from ShuffleMaster stock. (SHFL, NYSE)

[redandblack 0]

shufflemaster is rigged.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Yes, B&M cardrooms are rigged, just like online. Here's a test: if you can formulate a strategy to take advantage of these "stacked" decks and thereby get better cards than what would normally be expected, then your theory is correct.Otherwise, the shufflers are doing exactly what they're designed to do - spit out cards randomly.Disclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with the fact that I own and am profiting from ShuffleMaster stock. (SHFL, NYSE)

"That's not an accusation, just an observation."

[goose 0]

Shufflemasters do tend to produce certain paterns, but you'll probably never see it at a casino.In our training center we fooled around with a shufflemaster for a little while, feeding it unsorted decks of cards, and it did still spit out cards in semi-obvious patterns, but once you factor in the fact that those cards get washed, shuffled, and then played (with players throwing in their cards in different orders), there's no chance you're going to be able to crack it.Also, there are a few different types of automatic shufflers: the 16-deck shuffler used on blackjack tables predominately (good luck finding a pattern in those), continous shufflers (again, no chances), and then the shufflemasters as I was refering to earlier, which are used for games like 3/4 card poker, let it ride, caribbean stud etc. etc. plus the two-deck poker variaton.In summation, there is no pattern. I've dealt tens of thousands of hands, if not hundreds of thousands, on both poker and the table games, and believe me, if there was a pattern, I'd have noticed.If there actually was a patern don't you think dealers would be quitting in droves to go play at casino's to take advantage of this?

[psujohn 0]

Funny thing is those kids from MIT made millions due to the fact that experienced dealers have a "perfect" shuffle. Cards are exactly intermixed one from each hand. That said studies have shown that the "scramble" is the most effective way of getting a random shuffle. I just think you're going to look a little silly wearing your tin foil hat to the B&M.

[ErikVegas 0]

This is exactly why God invented the "seat change" button.Erik

[Wonkawillie77 0]

Funny thing is those kids from MIT made millions due to the fact that experienced dealers have a "perfect" shuffle. Cards are exactly intermixed one from each hand. That said studies have shown that the "scramble" is the most effective way of getting a random shuffle. I just think you're going to look a little silly wearing your tin foil hat to the B&M.

one thing you have to remember about the MIT kids is that they were playing blackjack with 5 and 7 deck shoes and they were watching for high count shoe in order to sit their "ringer" in the game to raise the bets.

Funny thing is those kids from MIT made millions due to the fact that experienced dealers have a "perfect" shuffle. Cards are exactly intermixed one from each hand. That said studies have shown that the "scramble" is the most effective way of getting a random shuffle. I just think you're going to look a little silly wearing your tin foil hat to the B&M.

I don't understand the "tin foil hat" commentI am making what I believe to be a valid observation.... your opportunity at ridicule proves that you, despite what you may think of me, are an *******.

[-HAL9000- 0]

Here in Los Angeles most if not all dealers shuffle the deck at least once before putting the cards in the auto shuffle machine. Like someone mentioned above I prefer the auto vs. human any-day. I've never once noticed a pattern but then again when I'm winning I don't really care. When I lose that's a whole other problem. And if you do notice a pattern you can always request a new set up.

[Wonkawillie77 0]

Interesting comments........ However, one thing has never been addressed in any of the comments made to my original post....If ACS machines are so good, whay aren't they used in the WSOP and the WPT?????

[psujohn 0]

one thing you have to remember about the MIT kids is that they were playing blackjack with 5 and 7 deck shoes and they were watching for high count shoe in order to sit their "ringer" in the game to raise the bets.

Nope. They were staying seated at the table and tracking sequences of cards through the shuffle. That coupled with the ability to perfectly cut the shoe to a specific number of cards allowed them to direct a certain card to a certain place. Direct an A to the player or a T to the dealer.

I don't understand the "tin foil hat" commentI am making what I believe to be a valid observation.... your opportunity at ridicule proves that you, despite what you may think of me, are an *******.

Of course you don't understand the tin foil hat comments. That's because you've spent no time around the forum and care nothing for it's history and accumulated culture. You simply view it as yet another place to spew your misguided conspiracy theories.

[-HAL9000- 0]

Interesting comments........ However, one thing has never been addressed in any of the comments made to my original post....If ACS machines are so good, whay aren't they used in the WSOP and the WPT?????

Ok I'll go out on a limb... umm, could it be the COST! So you want Harrah's to purchase hundreds of auto shufflers that they will use once a year!?! This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Harrah's bottom line is to make a profit. The only benefit I see that Harrah's would have by renting or buying the auto shufflers would be to speed the tourney's up. And even then you aren't shaving that much time off because you still have to deal with players using the clock.I don't see auto shufflers ever being used in the WSOP. Unless Shuffle Master provides them for free. On a more personal note, I played at Commerce all day yesterday and was dealt pocket 9's twice back to back! But the auto shuffler only flopped me trips once. Damn rigged machines, just to show they aren't perfect all the time.

[myenemy 0]

I am SURE that all dealers cut the deck after it comes out of the ACS. How does that figure into your theory of one side of the table getting the 'cream' cards? Personally I lend this theory no weight. Conspiracy theorists will always find conspiracies and droves of morons willing to agree. Your 'discussing' this concept with hundreds of genius poker minds, at prestigious tables all over the world, does nothing to convince me. Why doesnt the NFL allow the kicking block for XP's? Why can't you use an aluminum bat in MLB? Simple, they're an unfair advantage to the already extremely talented. Just as receiving twice as many hands in one blind level would be to extremely talented cardplayers. Maybe thats why WSOP/WPT dont use ACSs?

[mtdesmoines 3]

The only benefit I see that Harrah's would have by renting or buying the auto shufflers would be to speed the tourney's up.

RED LIGHT on table 456 !!!

[UncleBroomcorn 0]

"Several players at the table remarked how often the "good" hands were being dealt and someone asked the dealer to rip shuffle the cards when they came out of the shuffler. She looked at us, and said, "I am not allowed to do anything other than a single cut." The question I have is, why not? Could it be possible for the computer to organize the cards in such a way so that no matter where the deck was cut, a "hot run" of starting cards would be dealt? The answer, is, actually, yes it could. But what about the cut? Wouldn’t that destroy the order? No, it wouldn’t, the majority of the time. Try this with a deck of cards: Pull out the aces, kings, and queens. Put the four aces in four separate piles, put two random cards on each ace, put a king on each pile, put three random cards on top of the kings, put a queen on each pile, put two cards on each queen, stack the four piles one on top of another and put the remaining twelve cards on top of the pack. Put this pack on the table, cut the deck in half and deal out ten hands of Texas Hold’em face up on the table. You will see a player with pocket aces, kings, and queens, even though you cut the deck. So with this example, you can see that a stacked deck is not necessarily negated by a single cut."Question: If they are not capable of reading the cards, why do they have a infrared laser installed in them? Conventional wisdom says infrared devices are for scanning (i.e. self check-out lines at grocery stores).-J