First Hand At A New Table (no Reads)

[esprague 0]

So, my first hand, the table is really short, and I have no reads... it's the only 10 person table that isn't full, and the stacks are all shorter than me, so I take a seat and hope the table fills quickly. What do you think of this play?Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero ($200)Button ($114.60)SB ($116.10)Preflop: Hero is BB with , . SB posts a blind of $1. 1 fold, SB (poster) raises to $3, Hero calls $2.Flop: ($8) , , (2 players)SB bets $5, Hero raises to $15, SB calls $10.Turn: ($38) (2 players)SB bets $15, Hero calls $15.River: ($68) (2 players)SB bets $30, Hero calls $30.Final Pot: $128

[benhoug 0]

So, my first hand, the table is really short, and I have no reads... it's the only 10 person table that isn't full, and the stacks are all shorter than me, so I take a seat and hope the table fills quickly. What do you think of this play?

I know short-handed play is different, but this looks pretty ugly to me. Why are we fighting so hard for this pot? We've got top pair/no kicker in a nothing pot. Give it up and look for a better spot to get your money in.This is your first hand at the table, if you show this down everyone else will peg you as a loose Donkey. If that's the kind of image you like to portray (to get action later) I guess it's OK, but I prefer going the other route. Start off projecting Tight, Tight, Tight, and then switch gears on 'em.

[MasterLJ 0]

So, my first hand, the table is really short, and I have no reads... it's the only 10 person table that isn't full, and the stacks are all shorter than me, so I take a seat and hope the table fills quickly. What do you think of this play?Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero ($200)Button ($114.60)SB ($116.10)Preflop: Hero is BB with , . SB posts a blind of $1. 1 fold, SB (poster) raises to $3, Hero calls $2.Flop: ($8) , , (2 players)SB bets $5, Hero raises to $15, SB calls $10.Turn: ($38) (2 players)SB bets $15, Hero calls $15.River: ($68) (2 players)SB bets $30, Hero calls $30.Final Pot: $128

Wow. Take this with the spirit in which it's intended, but this really couldn't have been played worse.Fold to the raise pre-flop. Be cautious of a smooth call on the flop.What do you beat here? A total bluff, Q4, Q3, A5. My rule of thumb is that if it's easier to list the hands that you beat than the hands that beat you, you shouldn't be in the hand for any significant amount of money.

[esprague 0]

Well, I guess I had some kind of read, I just watched villain bully the last hand as I sat down. It's only 3 handed. Top pair no good? You guys don't think protecting your blind on a min-raise here is worthwhile?I've been playing tourneys so maybe I haven't toned it down to ring yet. Results in white below: Hero has Qs 6d (two pair, queens and twos). SB has Kc Ts (one pair, twos). Outcome: Hero wins $128.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I don't think this was too bad. I think he either has A-2 or a pocket pair lower than a Q. He essentially minraised you and would've reraised your flop raise if he was getting tricky with a big pair.The tough part of this hand that i'm 99% sure he has you on the flush draw and/or perhaps a 7. So, we don't really know whether he has a 2 here and is trying to bleed you after the turn, or has 88 or something of the sort.You others, the problem he had with getting involved here was the small bet on the turn. This is either a scary/donk bet, and our Hero must call it. The issue is what does the 1/2 pot bet mean on the river here? Again, I'm thinking it's a value bet...with a Villain holding a 2 and hoping the Hero has a Q, or 99 hoping Hero raised with a 7 or less.

[Scott3705 0]

Well, I guess I had some kind of read, I just watched villain bully the last hand as I sat down. It's only 3 handed. Top pair no good? You guys don't think protecting your blind on a min-raise here is worthwhile?I've been playing tourneys so maybe I haven't toned it down to ring yet. Results in white below: Hero has Qs 6d (two pair, queens and twos). SB has Kc Ts (one pair, twos). Outcome: Hero wins $128.

I personally don't like the call PF on the first hand. I have no problem playing this hand out if we've been sitting for 2-3 rotations and have atleast a sense of the villain. Given the call and no reads,....FLOP: very goodTurn: What? why the hell did he donk bet into me....If I smooth call I'm expecting a bigger bet on the river (didn't happen here, but I still would expect it).. .. that sucks because it becomes more expensive for our marginal hand. I probably call the turn bet, and hope to improve or catch another donk bet(which you found) to call. I still say, preflop fold. You don't really know enough about this player to make this sort of play, but I will say against the 1/2 population of players, on average, you're good here. The turn bugs me, but I can't figure out anything better there.

[esprague 0]

Thanks for the responses guys (all of them).

against the 1/2 population of players, on average, you're good here.

Let's not forget this is the $1-2 NL Party game at night (a fishbowl in my opinion), it may be better than half THAT population (LOL).With a short-handed game like this, I think you have to up the aggression and play more hands. You have to post blinds 2 of the 3 hands you play. I don't like folding to a min-raise here on the big blind, especially because I have position on the min-raiser. However, I do like players that would fold so easily, cuz then I'll raise every single hand until they figure that out. And hopefully they fight back the time I have a monster.But I can appreciate waiting an orbit or two before getting into it, but again, there's only 3 of us.Anyway, just my thoughts, I appreciate the feedback, thanks.

[Smasharoo 0]

Raise or fold the turn.Good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Reasons to raise the turn:You read in a book somewhere that in short handed games, 'ya gotta play aggressive'.Reasons against raising the turn:The villain read in a book somewhere that in short handed games, 'ya gotta play aggressive'.He'll pay you off on the river with something like mid pair for an amount that far exceeds the value of protecting your hand against a 2-5 outter; either because he makes a retarded 'value bet', or because he's a curious little ****** and suspects that you're bluffing after he checks to you.He'll probably bluff the river with a missed draw (or air) for an amount that is comparable to the value of protecting your hand against it. You lose more against a better made hand.

[mrdannyg 274]

is your name Ed Sprague?

[Limit Player 0]

Thanks for the responses guys (all of them). Let's not forget this is the $1-2 NL Party game at night (a fishbowl in my opinion), it may be better than half THAT population (LOL).With a short-handed game like this, I think you have to up the aggression and play more hands. You have to post blinds 2 of the 3 hands you play. I don't like folding to a min-raise here on the big blind, especially because I have position on the min-raiser. However, I do like players that would fold so easily, cuz then I'll raise every single hand until they figure that out. And hopefully they fight back the time I have a monster.But I can appreciate waiting an orbit or two before getting into it, but again, there's only 3 of us.Anyway, just my thoughts, I appreciate the feedback, thanks.

your play was bad, but that it was 3 handed meant there was far less chance he raised with a good hand and/or hit the flop hard.after he smooth called your raise, you never defined your hand. all you did was call smallish bets in the hopes that he was bluffing, which he was.however, had he bet something like $45 or $50 on the river, can you call? no. your play was bad, his was worse.

[Smasharoo 0]

Reasons to raise the turn:You read in a book somewhere that in short handed games, 'ya gotta play aggressive'.Reasons against raising the turn:The villain read in a book somewhere that in short handed games, 'ya gotta play aggressive'.Mainly you almost allways get to show down a marginal hand for less money and fold to a better one.Occasionally you fold another weak Q that you're chopping with. How often does that happen when you call?Oh yeah, never.Good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Occasionally you fold another weak Q that you're chopping with. How often does that happen when you call?Oh yeah, never.

Occasionally is a bit too generous.You probably get better hands to fold roughly as often as you're forced to fold a winner by him reraising the turn with something that you have beat. See: rarely.

Mainly you almost allways get to show down a marginal hand for less money and fold to a better one.

No, you get him to fold his marginal hands that are drawing to typically 2 cards and reraise with his better ones, or call your raise and donk the river (like he did the turn). Remind me how you show it down for less, again. You're basically assuming that he checks to you on the river if you raise the turn and that his river bet (if you just call the turn bet) will be bigger than your turn raise. He gaybet the turn. There's no reason why he wont do it on the river too.For what it costs to raise and get the "information" required to make a fold, you can show the hand down. And instead of getting the stone cold bluffs or weak hands that are drawing slim to fold on the turn, you'll generally get another bet out of them on the river; whether it be a final stab at the pot from a bluff, or a check/call from a pair of 7's, or a hole pair below a Q. For the most part, the hands that you want to be raising against are flush draws and overcard+small pair combo's, like AK or K7. But if he'll bluff the river when he misses or call with his pair unimproved, it's only marginally better.

[Smasharoo 0]

You probably get better hands to fold roughly as often as you're forced to fold a winner by him reraising the turn with something that you have beat. See: rarely.I don't care about better hands folding.I care about winning instead of splitting against his most likely holding, a Q we're chopping with a lot of the time. Folding flush draws is fine. Folding hands we're ahead of is fine. Folding heands you're ahead of that have equity isn't a bad thing. Folding hands that are drawing totally dea would be a bad thing, I guess. See: Agression is rewarded in NL when the hands are close to equal and being a weak tight calling station is rewarded only because other players are so shockingly bad that you could do almost anything other slap your **** on the keyboard and win some money at NL.Too confusing?See splitting is worse than winning the pot.Good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I don't care about better hands folding.I care about winning instead of splitting against his most likely holding, a Q we're chopping with.See: Agression is rewarded in NL when the hands are close to equal and being a weak tight calling station is rewarded only because other players are so shockingly bad that you could do almost anything other slap your **** on the keyboard and win some money at NL

Folding hands that chop is only slightly less rare, for any reasonable sized bet we could make.And chopping hands make up only a small part of his range.People become spastic pieces of dog **** in blind battles. He probably does this with literally any hole pair, any board pair and tons of random unpaired, draw-free hands.If we knew he had a hand that was going to chop, we should obviously just push our whole stack in right then and there. But doing that would be so shockingly bad that they could do almost anything other than slap their *** on the keyboard and win your money.But at least now we have two reasons to be aggressive here.It's written in a book, and posted on an internet message board.

[Smasharoo 0]

But at least now we have two reasons to be aggressive here.It's written in a book, and posted on an internet message board.Yeah what do people who win money know.You're right. Weak tight is where the money is. Not making flush draws fold or pay more is a bad idea. Not folding hands you chop with is a bad idea. Not getting your opponent to better define his hand is good. In fact, we really shouldn't bet at all and just hope value bets a worse hand on the river if he checks the flop and the turn.That way we don't lose value aagainst air y it folding when it's drawing. Because that loses value. We should check sets on flush draw flops too, because we don't want to lose value from flush draws which are behind.See how ludicrous your argument is yet?

[Abbaddabba 0]

You're right. Weak tight is where the money is. Not making flush draws fold or pay more is a bad idea. Not folding hands you chop with is a bad idea. Not getting your opponent to better define his hand is good. In fact, we really shouldn't bet at all and just hope value bets a worse hand on the river if he checks the flop and the turn.

Here's a better idea.Go all in.That'll define his hand real quick.

[Smasharoo 0]

Here's a better idea.Go all in.That'll define his hand real quick.Good work not defending your argument at all. Probably easier than praying for the logic fairy to pop up and make it a good idea to try not to fold hands drawing to beat you because you "lose value".Good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Good work not defending your argument at all. Probably easier than praying for the logic fairy to pop up and make it a good idea to try not to fold hands drawing to beat you because you "lose value".

It was a parody of your response, which did an equal job of ignoring the issues. Oops?

That way we don't lose value aagainst air y it folding when it's drawing. Because that loses value. We should check sets on flush draw flops too, because we don't want to lose value from flush draws which are behind.See how ludicrous your argument is yet?

You always manage to come up with the least appropriate analogies possible.A set on the flop, and top pair no kicker on the turn in a blind battle are not at all comparable.

[fckthis 0]

I think folding preflop is the safest play. Unless you're a great postflop player, and i mean great (which I dont think you are), making this call will lose you money in the long run.

[Abbaddabba 0]

If this is a turn bluff, he'll generally bluff the river too.If he bluffs the river with air, we're better off calling. The value we get from him when he makes a bluff far exceeds the value of protecting against a hand that's drawing dead when he folds to a raise.If he's betting with a mid pair or a hole pair below a Q and is folding to a raise, but calling a river value bet - calling is better. The value we get from an (ill estimate) half pot sized bet far exceeds the value from protecting against a hand that is drawing from between 2 and 5 outs. In fact, if we manage to get a bet of even 1/4 of the pot, we're probably still better off.If he's betting with a better queen, a deuce, an overpair or a set, calling is better. When we are raising, we generally raise roughly the size of the pot - which is roughly how much he'll value bet us when he has a better hand at the river and we just call the turn... so we lose at best the same amount. When he gaybets the river, we sometimes pay off and lose more. And if we raise and are reraised, we also lose the ability to draw to 2 cards for a win or chop that we'd otherwise be able to. If he bluffs the river with a missed flush draw, we're slightly better off raising (with a few rare exceptions where he pushes back on the turn and we have to fold a winner).If he has a queen that chops, raising is definitely better; except when he reraises us and gets us to do what we're trying to get him to do.Is that not an exhaustive list? Do you disagree with any one of those points?

[Smasharoo 0]

A set on the flop, and top pair no kicker on the turn in a blind battle are not at all comparable.They are in terms of not wanting to fold drawing hands because you might miss value.Do you see why?Maybe then you'll realize how much money you're pising away worrying about folding hands that are drawing live to beat you and losing "value".It's ok, I didn't expect support of what you were saying. If you look at it for two seconds it's obvioulsy just flat wrong on a very basic level.I'm sure you think it's a good idea, but don't know why and that you're having a good time outplaying yourself out of cash with FPS.Good luck with that.he value we get from an (ill estimate) half pot sized bet far exceeds the value from protecting against a hand that is drawing from between 2 and 5 outs.Lots of hands have more than 5 outs here.Can you find any? Good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

They are in terms of not wanting to fold drawing hands because you might miss value.

If he's drawing to 2 cards, yes, getting him to fold when he otherwise would pay off on the river is a very bad thing.If he's drawing to 3 cards and will pay off, yes, it's still better to call.If he has a flush draw, ive said a LONG time ago that raising is better. But if he bluffs on the river when he misses for an amount greater than what would be correct for him to have called on the turn, it's only slightly better.

Lots of hands have more than 5 outs here.Can you find any? Good luck.

A lot of hands are drawing to between 2 and 5 cards.Can you find any?Ill give you a hint: the one he actually had.

[Smasharoo 0]

Ill give you a hint: the one he actually had.Oh I forgot.Starting with the results and working backwards your advice makes a lot of sense.All clear now.Keep up the good work.Good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I made my original post before reading the results.But if you think that this isnt unpaired no-draw hands a LOT of the time, it's probably because you're always getting them to fold their bluffs in situations where they'd otherwise have dumped you money while drawing nearly dead.