Playing A Big Draw (1-2 Nl)

[Dubey 1,035]

I raise to $15 in MP with K J (15 is standard preflop raise in this game)Villain is a LAG who rarely folds preflop. I have been running cold for a few hours and had played very few pots, my image was tight.. I think this guy was smart enough to notice this.Flop comes T A 4 I bet out $20 (I think this was a mistake, as I fully expected him to raise me here, and I think a check-raise would be a better line)Villain raises to $60. I have about $120 left, he has another $80 or so after his raise to 60. What is your play?

[anyone1 0]

All-in. I don't think many people will say otherwise.

[smrphf 0]

you are in a virtual coinflip situation regardless since anything but a set puts you less than a 3-2 underdog. push, you want to see both cards.

[Abbaddabba 0]

"Because everyone else was doing it" isnt really that great of a reason for raising to $15 preflop.It really doesnt make a different if you put the money in now or on the turn, unless you think that there's some faint chance that you can get him to fold.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

"Because everyone else was doing it" isnt really that great of a reason for raising to $15 preflop.It really doesnt make a different if you put the money in now or on the turn, unless you think that there's some faint chance that you can get him to fold.

Wrong.

[KDawgCometh 2]

"Because everyone else was doing it" isnt really that great of a reason for raising to $15 preflop.It really doesnt make a different if you put the money in now or on the turn, unless you think that there's some faint chance that you can get him to fold.

wrong dude. Since we will have just 40 left if we call this flop raise, I want to put all of my money in here since we have a big ole draw and some FE to go with it. Calling is just bad poker, maybe if the stacks were deep, then I'd call and look to raise the turn with our big draw I'd see calling, but pushing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calling and its not even close. If you think that its close, then you aren't playing good NL

[Abbaddabba 0]

I think you both quoted me without actually reading the quote."unless there's some faint chance that you can get him to fold"You guys even quoted it. Knock knock.I guess if you think the supposed LAG folds the flop getting 3:1 on his money even once in a while, then IT IS A CLEAR CUT PUSH OMGWTFBBQ. This is someone who "rarely folds preflop" in full ring, according to the OP. This doesnt sound like someone who will often fold. And so i think that it rarely makes a difference. Neither will he fold the turn if any of your draws hit.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I think you both quoted me without actually reading the quote."unless there's some faint chance that you can get him to fold"You guys even quoted it. Knock knock.I guess if you think the supposed LAG folds the flop getting 3:1 on his money even once in a while, then IT IS A CLEAR CUT PUSH OMGWTFBBQ. This is someone who "rarely folds preflop" in full ring, according to the OP. This doesnt sound like someone who will often fold. And so i think that it rarely makes a difference. Neither will he fold the turn if any of your draws hit.

No, in this case, it doesn't really matter one way or another as you're going to have to push/call any turn, bricked or otherwise with the odds you're recieving, so, no, it doesn't matter. I'm just a bit more abstract than that. I'm more interested in the way you play your big draws OOP then some boring, drab analysis of one hand. You gave him no reasoning as to how he should play a big draw OOP. You just told him that he was potstuck. Well, no shi.t? Tack on an extra hundred to each stack, same stakes. Now does it play differently? What if hero had check/called and lead the turn--bricked or not? Random hand analysis is boring to me, for this very reason. The NLHE strat forum is often very boring to me. I'm not sure if it's the lack of quality/complex hands/questions, or the lack of quality responses. But, then again, I've never gotten either out of you, Abba, so, why start ranting now? Good luck, OP.

[David_Nicoson 1]

"Because everyone else was doing it" isnt really that great of a reason for raising to $15 preflop.

I think that's true, but if everyone else is calling 15, then that might be a good reason.

[MasterLJ 0]

This sounds like a live game.If the standard raise is 15, you want to limp with KJ and fold to any raise and wait for hands in which you know you're ahead.

[mk 11]

But, then again, I've never gotten either out of you, Abba, so, why start ranting now? Good luck, OP.

Yikes, a bit harsh, no? Why was that necessary?

[Scott3705 0]

I think you both quoted me without actually reading the quote."unless there's some faint chance that you can get him to fold"You guys even quoted it. Knock knock.I guess if you think the supposed LAG folds the flop getting 3:1 on his money even once in a while, then IT IS A CLEAR CUT PUSH OMGWTFBBQ. This is someone who "rarely folds preflop" in full ring, according to the OP. This doesnt sound like someone who will often fold. And so i think that it rarely makes a difference. Neither will he fold the turn if any of your draws hit.

I understand what you're saying.... I agree we have no FE unless we ran into a complete bluff. however, calling and blanking on the turn actually gives us incorrect odds to call for a river, which means we called for improper odds for a turn.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Yikes, a bit harsh, no? Why was that necessary?

About as necessary as this reply, that, Abba thought he needed to direct at someone who admittedly botched the hand.

Not sure why you raised so little preflop.Not sure why you bet so little on the flop.Most of all, im not sure why the average stack at the table is 40 big blinds. After you botch preflop and the flop, the turn you can only guess what he has. He could have anything. Dont screw up on previous streets and you wont be faced with tough decisions. The best strategy for the river given th is to pull out your internet cable and use up one of your disconnect protects.

I might be an *** outside of this forum, but, in here, I try to be very cordial and very patient with most every poster. I try and respect everyone who comes into this forum, knowing that they likely came here for help. No matter how glaring their error, or how elementary their question, I try and be respectful. Just sayin'.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Tack on an extra hundred to each stack, same stakes. Now does it play differently? What if hero had check/called and lead the turn--bricked or not?

The two situations arent at all comparable.Tack an extra hundred on and a push is MUCH better than a call. With stacks this short, it's not a big deal either way. There's nothing interesting to discuss because the stacks are so short relative to the pot that it plays itself. Which is clearly what i meant when i said "it doesnt make a difference". Im not saying not to push. You may on some rare occasions get a fold, and you may on some rare occasions get a free turn if you just call. If you want something to discuss - how about this. Does he fold more often by pushing on the flop, or if youc all and push on the turn?

I might be an *** outside of this forum, but, in here, I try to be very cordial and very patient with most every poster. I try and respect everyone who comes into this forum, knowing that they likely came here for help. No matter how glaring their error, or how elementary their question, I try and be respectful. Just sayin'.

I think you have your priorities ****ed. Being a jackass to someone face to face is a whole lot more demeaning. This is just a ****ing message board... kind of creepy, really. I picture some balding fat man who snears at everyone in his daily route to the convenience store to pick up chocolate bars, and then comes online to be perfectly polite to all of the little boys on the poker chatroom.

[macphec 0]

You just say "I'm all in", sit back and wait for your diamond.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I think you have your priorities ****ed. Being a jackass to someone face to face is a whole lot more demeaning. This is just a ****ing message board... kind of creepy, really. I picture some balding fat man who snears at everyone in his daily route to the convenience store to pick up chocolate bars, and then comes online to be perfectly polite to all of the little boys on the poker chatroom.

You're funny. In fact, no to all of the above. Not bald, not fat, not unhappy, not picking up little boys on poker chatrooms. In fact, my picture's been posted on this site, if you're truly that curious about my appearance. Even one with my girlfriend, if you're curious about my sexuality. And any decision you've come to on my priorities is based on..? Exactly nothing. But hey, nice work. In all reality, I'm just fu.cking tired of you. I've spent a good deal of time trying to get this particular forum back up on it's feet after the split. You've done nothing but act like an arrogant fu.ck who would rather make some snide comment about someone's intelligence because they made a bad play, than offer real advice.It's just too bad you're a social retard and a malcontent who would rather chide others for wanting to learn. It must be nice, to be the perfect poker player, though. Good work. If you want to keep this going, feel free to contact me through MSN. Otherwise, STFU and go impress everyone in the LHE forums with your intellect--no one here gives a shi.t.

[NoSup4U 0]

I don't get the bickering in this thread, nothing posted seems to really merit it? Just sayin...To the OP: The correct line would be to check/raise all in. You know all your money is going in on that flop, and this gives you the most fold equity from your opponent. Since HE has done the raising here, any donkey will feel stuck in this pot with as little as AQ and call your all in after committing his chips thus far. This isn't horrible, but I think you want to extract as much fold equity from this type of draw as possible. If the flop was QTd and you were open ended, maybe you want are more willing to give that up.A few other comments: Is KJs a hand most people raise with from mp? I don't. But I guess if you haven't seen a hand in forever it looks good?I'm ok with the $15 pf raise if this is 'standard' and you know some donkey is going to call with a worse hand. Why not stick it to him for as much as you can pf. In this case though, I don't know that KJs qualifies.Mark

[Abbaddabba 0]

You're funny. In fact, no to all of the above. Not bald, not fat, not unhappy, not picking up little boys on poker chatrooms. In fact, my picture's been posted on this site, if you're truly that curious about my appearance. Even one with my girlfriend, if you're curious about my sexuality. And any decision you've come to on my priorities is based on..? Exactly nothing. But hey, nice work. In all reality, I'm just fu.cking tired of you. I've spent a good deal of time trying to get this particular forum back up on it's feet after the split. You've done nothing but act like an arrogant fu.ck who would rather make some snide comment about someone's intelligence because they made a bad play, than offer real advice.It's just too bad you're a social retard and a malcontent who would rather chide others for wanting to learn. It must be nice, to be the perfect poker player, though. Good work. If you want to keep this going, feel free to contact me through MSN. Otherwise, STFU and go impress everyone in the LHE forums with your intellect--no one here gives a shi.t.

I didnt say you were any of those things. It's just that you SEEM like someone who is. Or at least like you're destined to be one....So basically, dont be expecting a private message any time soon, sweet cheeks.

To the OP: The correct line would be to check/raise all in. You know all your money is going in on that flop, and this gives you the most fold equity from your opponent. Since HE has done the raising here, any donkey will feel stuck in this pot with as little as AQ and call your all in after committing his chips thus far. This isn't horrible, but I think you want to extract as much fold equity from this type of draw as possible. If the flop was QTd and you were open ended, maybe you want are more willing to give that up.A few other comments: Is KJs a hand most people raise with from mp? I don't. But I guess if you haven't seen a hand in forever it looks good?

You're the preflop aggressor in this situation. He wont necessarily bet. But if you think he will, then i'd prefer it given the stack sizes. You leave yourself with enough to push with where you'll stand to get folds from a wide range of hands. You also pick up on a lot of stone cold bluffs who "sense weakness" initially and will make a bet with virtually anything.As for preflop,Raising to 15 from MP sounds all peachy when you consider that the station behind will call with a large variety of hands. The problem isnt one of equity. It's that with a large pot, he's really not making that much of a mistake by being a lag in position in a big pot given what you actually hold. Your edge is not huge against a range of potential calling hands. I'd rather keep the pot small. Play with him when you hit huge, and dump it for cheap otherwise. He sounds like he probably gets stacked with top pair regardless of how big the pot is on the flop.Limp limp, ************.

[srblan 0]

This sounds like a live game.If the standard raise is 15, you want to limp with KJ and fold to any raise and wait for hands in which you know you're ahead.

Not if the stacks are deep and/or the players are weak. KJs is a difficult hand to play, but flops like A Q 10 can hit so many different hands that you will almost always get paid off (especially by two pair).In a game with a bunch of bad players, I almost always try to keep the pots small. I'd prefer not to take the lead with a hand like KJ because it is very easy to get trapped.BTW, at the next available opportunity, I move to the other side of the LAG, especially if he raises a lot of hands preflop.Against some opponents, I actually might move in on the flop to make it look like a steal.

[Dubey 1,035]

You just say "I'm all in", sit back and wait for your diamond.

thanks for all the replies, and if anyone is interested... that is what I did,... and that is what happened

[Jordan 1]

hopefully you spilled the chips all over your chest to rub it in afterwards.i would have.- Jordan

[chrozzo 19]

thanks for all the replies, and if anyone is interested... that is what I did,... and that is what happened

wow, this entire thread was a joy to read, or maybe i just skimmed...anyways, NH