Pot Odds Question

[ArcadianSky 0]

I fully understand the concept of pot odds and I've been using it efectively for quite some time now (at least, I think), however, I recently read an article that threw me off a bit and I would be incredibly grateful for any clarification:In a N/L game, with details aside, let's assume I hold J :heart:5 on the button and the flop comes Q :heart:7 :heart:2 . My opponent bets leaving me with 2.5-1 from the pot, should I call? The reason I ask this is because I know I'm getting a good price for my draw to the river, however, in this scenario I'm only paying for one card, I'm getting 2.5 to 1 on the turn and I'm only 4.2 to 1 to hit on the turn. The only way this bet is worth my call is if I miss on the turn and my opponent checks the river, right? Wouldn't I need 4.2 to 1 from the pot to make this call worthy?

[Zach6668 513]

Here's what I get from this question.We have a FD, that will come in roughly 35% of the time, given we see both streets, or roughly 2-1.Then, if he bets, and you are getting 2.5-1 on the call, we are getting good odds, if we can see both streets for this price.We need 4-1 to see JUST the turn card. Another 4-1 to see just the river card.Of course, we can factor in implied odds, if you think he will pay you off at all on the river, if we make it on the turn, in the case that we are getting 2.5-1 on the initial call, I think we can make it.Keeping in mind, I don't play NL. Concepts are the same, though.Also, let me know if I'm just too tired to make sense, as it's 5 am.- Zach

[ArcadianSky 0]

Here's what I get from this question.We have a FD, that will come in roughly 35% of the time, given we see both streets, or roughly 2-1.Then, if he bets, and you are getting 2.5-1 on the call, we are getting good odds, if we can see both streets for this price.We need 4-1 to see JUST the turn card. Another 4-1 to see just the river card.Of course, we can factor in implied odds, if you think he will pay you off at all on the river, if we make it on the turn, in the case that we are getting 2.5-1 on the initial call, I think we can make it.Keeping in mind, I don't play NL. Concepts are the same, though.Also, let me know if I'm just too tired to make sense, as it's 5 am.- Zach

It's 5 A.M. by me as well so my question probably makes little sense... so at least we're on the same page . But yes, I understand this response and it was extremely insightful. I just always hear people say when someone bets the flop vs a FD, "Well, he's getting 2 to 1 from the pot, so he can make this call", when in reality the person is getting a crap price for the turn (unless he's confident in his opponent checking) and should be getting at least 4 to 1 from the pot to see it, right? (with all implied odds aside). In this situation, generally speaking, is it worth calling anything more expensive then 4 to 1, in hopes my opponent checks the turn, giving me a free peak at the river?

[Zach6668 513]

It's 5 A.M. by me as well so my question probably makes little sense... so at least we're on the same page . But yes, I understand this response and it was extremely insightful. I just always hear people say when someone bets the flop vs a FD, "Well, he's getting 2 to 1 from the pot, so he can make this call", when in reality the person is getting a crap price for the turn (unless he's confident in his opponent checking) and should be getting at least 4 to 1 from the pot to see it, right? (with all implied odds aside). In this situation, generally speaking, is it worth calling anything more expensive then 4 to 1, in hopes my opponent checks the turn, giving me a free peak at the river?

If he is ALWAYS going to check the river, then all you need is 2-1.I think what you may be thinking of is when a player is all-in, if the second player is getting 2-1 on his call for a FD, then it's ok, because he will see both cards for that price.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

a competent opponent will put you on a flush draw quite a bit if you just call his flop bet. Looks to be about a 2/3 pot bet by villain.You'll probably face a 1/2 pot bet or so on the turn.Depending on the size of the smaller stack and his propensity to pay off on the river (i.e. Your implied odds), you call the flop and turnBut not against a decent player, I'd say...who won't pay you off much.Sometimes he's betting his higher flush draw, or redraws out on you after you hit the flush on turn.Lots to keep in mindThere's always the All in Push over the top of him on the flop.

[nomad_monad 0]

A few things to remember when playing flush draws in NL when you're not getting 4-1 pot odds to see the next card:- don't call if against opponents who will shut down on the flush card, since your implied odds suck and can't make up for the less than correct direct odds your getting. however, this means that these opponents are ripe for bluffing when the flush card DOES hit and you're not actually playing the draw.- avoid calling from out of position. the benefit of being in position when calling without 4-1 odds is huge. the reason why is because sometimes your opponent will put you on a different hand than a draw or be weak enough to be a little concerned and CHECK to you on the turn card, thereby giving you a free look at the river. here is one example:unraised pot - pot is $20flop: Ad Jh 5hYou hold 9h7hVillain bets $10You call getting 3-1turn: blankThe villain could be holding a Jack or a very weak ace and then check to you worried about your smooth call on the flop. You could either decide to bet here to further represent the Ace or just take the free card. If you check behind, you've seen both turn and river based on your 3-1 flop call for much better than the right price.- if you just REALLY want to play the flush draw from out of position, bet the flop so that a call from your opponent will give you roughly 4-1. in effect, you set the correct odds yourself. against any kind of observant opponent though, this bet will get raised pretty hard unless you bet like this with your monsters as well.

[Actuary 3]

- if you just REALLY want to play the flush draw from out of position, bet the flop so that a call from your opponent will give you roughly 4-1. in effect, you set the correct odds yourself. against any kind of observant opponent though, this bet will get raised pretty hard unless you bet like this with your monsters as well.

which would be pretty bad.Unless you mean like boats into a Lag.

[7notrump 0]

OP: good question. I have wondered the same.

A few things to remember when playing flush draws in NL when you're not getting 4-1 pot odds to see the next card:- don't call if against opponents who will shut down on the flush card, since your implied odds suck and can't make up for the less than correct direct odds your getting. however, this means that these opponents are ripe for bluffing when the flush card DOES hit and you're not actually playing the draw.- avoid calling from out of position. the benefit of being in position when calling without 4-1 odds is huge. the reason why is because sometimes your opponent will put you on a different hand than a draw or be weak enough to be a little concerned and CHECK to you on the turn card, thereby giving you a free look at the river. here is one example:unraised pot - pot is $20flop: Ad Jh 5hYou hold 9h7hVillain bets $10You call getting 3-1turn: blankThe villain could be holding a Jack or a very weak ace and then check to you worried about your smooth call on the flop. You could either decide to bet here to further represent the Ace or just take the free card. If you check behind, you've seen both turn and river based on your 3-1 flop call for much better than the right price.- if you just REALLY want to play the flush draw from out of position, bet the flop so that a call from your opponent will give you roughly 4-1. in effect, you set the correct odds yourself. against any kind of observant opponent though, this bet will get raised pretty hard unless you bet like this with your monsters as well.

nomad_monad: good post. This really clears things up for me.

[ArcadianSky 0]

A few things to remember when playing flush draws in NL when you're not getting 4-1 pot odds to see the next card:- don't call if against opponents who will shut down on the flush card, since your implied odds suck and can't make up for the less than correct direct odds your getting. however, this means that these opponents are ripe for bluffing when the flush card DOES hit and you're not actually playing the draw.- avoid calling from out of position. the benefit of being in position when calling without 4-1 odds is huge. the reason why is because sometimes your opponent will put you on a different hand than a draw or be weak enough to be a little concerned and CHECK to you on the turn card, thereby giving you a free look at the river. here is one example:unraised pot - pot is $20flop: Ad Jh 5hYou hold 9h7hVillain bets $10You call getting 3-1turn: blankThe villain could be holding a Jack or a very weak ace and then check to you worried about your smooth call on the flop. You could either decide to bet here to further represent the Ace or just take the free card. If you check behind, you've seen both turn and river based on your 3-1 flop call for much better than the right price.- if you just REALLY want to play the flush draw from out of position, bet the flop so that a call from your opponent will give you roughly 4-1. in effect, you set the correct odds yourself. against any kind of observant opponent though, this bet will get raised pretty hard unless you bet like this with your monsters as well.

Awesome response, I got a lot out of this. In the above scenario, let's say the turn card wasn't a blank, it was a , I would need to extract at least 3 more chips out of my opponent to justify my 3 to 1 call on the flop, correct?

[nomad_monad 0]

which would be pretty bad.Unless you mean like boats into a Lag.

Yeah, mostly bad unless you've got the deck totally crippled.

[nomad_monad 0]

Awesome response, I got a lot out of this. In the above scenario, let's say the turn card wasn't a blank, it was a , I would need to extract at least 3 more chips out of my opponent to justify my 3 to 1 call on the flop, correct?

Now this is something I've never been super clear on, so if someone else can step in here and clarify that would be great.I'm not sure where you are getting the $3 more = justify 3-1 flop call.I think you go back to your flop call, where you got 3-1. How much more do you have to win from your opponent to make it 4-1, assuming you still call $10? Another $10. So in order for you to get implied odds that boost your overall odds to 4-1 *for the turn*, you need the villain to toss you at least an extra $10 *on the turn*. As stated in my original post, if for some reason you decide to check behind and you get to the river, you've already gotten the correct odds to see both cards and don't need any more money from your opponent. But you should, of course, probably bet your made flush on the turn instead of checking behind in order to protect it against redraws, boats, and for the purposes of setting up scare card bluffs later. The slight problem of extracting further value to justify your flop call, and you'll have to consider this, is that if you decide to bet the minimum turn bet that justifies your call - $10 - you will be giving your opponent 5-1 odds to see the river. If the villain is on a heart redraw, this could be disastrous for two reasons:1) Obviously, you could lose a pot you should've won2) Although you still aren't giving your opponent exactly direct odds to call with a heart redraw (only 7 hearts left in the deck if your opponent has one --> 5.6-1 odds which is pretty damn close), his implied odds for calling just took a huge leap if you can't lay down your flush on the river if another flush card comes.So you have to balance your desire to get minimum value to justify your odds decision with the possible need to protect your hand using a larger bet that might cause a fold (and in the end that might make the initial odds decision incorrect). I think this highlights the need to pick the right opponent to play flush draws *passively* on the flop.

[Actuary 3]

I think you bet an amount greater than necessary to at least justify your call.Getting re-drawn out on at a bargain price is the worst option, of course.When villan folds to your bet, it's quite likely he had almost nothing and you had more outs that you thought.In order to justify the flop call if you hit on the turn, your bet doesn't have to be much.Thus if he folds...1. his hand was probably weak, and you odds were better than you thought, thus maybe you were better than 4:1 already2. you can use that to bluff later when you aren't gonig for the flush, but it "hits"If he's a very loose opponent, you can bet big, of course.

[RazorStrap 0]

Since you posted this as a pot odds question, here's something to consider when calculating pot odds. The Ace and King of hearts are unaccounted for.Since we know that people tend to play big cards there is a possibility that the villain my hold one or the other. People also like to play suited cards, so he could have a draw to the ace high, or king high flush. So... you may make your flush and STILL lose to a better flush, which doesn't nececessarily mean that you don't play the hand, BUT, if your pot odds are borderline, I would take this into consideration and it would lean me towards a fold. What I'm trying to say, is that since you can make your flush and still lose, you need to require slightly better pot odds than you would if you were drawing to the nut flush, so figure the odds you would need to draw to the nut flush and bump it up a bit, say 10%.