Party Poker Account Blocked!

[FourFlusher 0]

What about using PokerAce HUD at all? Are they going to get pissy if I use it during the game to collect stats?

[ColeSLaw 0]

Does anyone know where proper personal jurisdiction is? There T&C does not state a jurisidiction where the end-user consents so I'm assuming that I can file in L.A. Any other lawyers out there?????

File in your local jurisdiction, don't worry about the clauses that say you are subject to the laws of Katmandu or whatever. There are a number of legal arguments you can bring up in order to retrieve your money including unconscionability. Not sure how you'll stand up, but it seems better than nothing.This is not legal advice, just my opinion on the matter.

[PoppinFresh 0]

how does someone datamining you negatively effect your play. I don't understand this stance by several people here. Stats don't always tell the whole story. DMing has helped me in some ways, but it doesn't tell when you are tilting and what not

Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, but it certainly has its advantages, and once party decides to ban it those who continue to datamine have an unfair advantage.Programs like pokerace also have their advantages, and if party were to ever ban the use of HUDs no one who continues to use them should be surprised when their account is frozen.

[FourFlusher 0]

This is from Stars...and, it makes sense to me...notify first, take more drastic action after:Q. What steps are you going to take to prevent players from using prohibited programs? A. We are going to look to see if any of those programs is running on a player's computer. If we find one of the prohibited programs, we will alert the player that he is running a prohibited program and tell him what the program is. We will ask that he stop running the program immediately. If he complies, fine. If not, then we will prevent the PokerStars client from running on his computer. Q. Are you going to look for anything else on players' computers? A. Absolutely not. Our sole interest is in protecting our players and our site from programs that we believe are bad for the integrity and fairness of our games. Q. Are you going to confiscate the account funds of somebody running a prohibited program? A. While we reserve the right to confiscate the funds of somebody running a prohibited program, we are not going to do this lightly. We want to educate our players - not punish them. However, we will confiscate funds if a player shows a consistent pattern of using prohibited programs after being warned.

[mb5322 0]

For real?I have no problem with the ban since the OP violated the data mining rules enforced by PP (and also for the benefits of the general PP players), but just banned your account because of some conversations is unimaginable, and you didn't say "shįt" or "fūck" in your conversations.

Yes jacking off this is the gods honest truth and they confiscated around $500, saying that I was promoting rakeback at the site. No cusswords, no offers of rakeback, this was the exact conversation that their security team quoted in the email notificication of the account blockage and funds confiscation.

[custom36 5]

What about using PokerAce HUD at all? Are they going to get pissy if I use it during the game to collect stats?

PAHUD is fine.

[nritchi3 0]

Personally i think Party is stupid for pulling stuff like this. They are starting to get a very bad reputation for there customer service and cuthroat business tactics. I agree with everyone else that spending any time or money on a lawsuit is a complete waste. Even if Party was run from the states its a complete waste. I don't think your gonna be sucessful at all but you would probably be better off going to the media. If you could somehow get a group of people who have had there accounts taken for very small infractions you might be able to get some sort of media to write a story. Party might decide that its not worth the bad press. My dad called one of the Toronto papers once because his issurance got cancelled he then called the issurance company and told them that the paper would be writing a story about the issurance company and the re-instated his plan right away. Its a long shot but worth considering.P.S. Notice how Stars often has more players than party lately.

[theomen 0]

File in your local jurisdiction, don't worry about the clauses that say you are subject to the laws of Katmandu or whatever. There are a number of legal arguments you can bring up in order to retrieve your money including unconscionability. Not sure how you'll stand up, but it seems better than nothing.This is not legal advice, just my opinion on the matter.

sure - go ahead and sue in your jurisdiction, in fact, sue in any jurisdiction. good luck getting past teh personal jurisdiction issue.....

[spikymarv99 0]

I just finished a rough draft of the complaint. Apparantly, I did consent to jurisdiction in someplace called Gilbralter????? Regardless, me and one of my old classmates scoured through the whole T&C and there is nothing prohibiting datamining. So it looks like the suit will go foward. Thank god I'm a lawyer or all of this would be impossible. The plan is to finish up the final draft of my formal complaint within the hour. I have PartyGaming's legal departments fax number and I will fax it over to them tonight with instructions to call me within 24 hours or I will file suit. The whole situation with Gilbralter is pretty simple. I can go before a judge and argue forum nonconvience. That is part of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and there is a tremendous amount of case law on matter in my favor. I honestly don't know if there this is worth 6 grand! My hope is that their legal department will realize that it will cost them over a hundred grand to litigate this and just give me my money back, reinstate my account, and give me a stiff warning. I'll let you guys know what their response is. I hope it isn't "suck my ****"

sure - go ahead and sue in your jurisdiction, in fact, sue in any jurisdiction. good luck getting past teh personal jurisdiction issue.....

The clause means nothing in reality. When applied to the balancing test, I win. I will have to litigate under Gibralter law, but it will be on my turf. That's Civ Pro 101 baby. The law is awesome.

[srblan 0]

Gibraltar is right off the coast of Spain. Hopefully saber rattling will be enough to get them to reinstate you. The problem with having a trial in your local jurisdictionis that online poker is such a gray area of US law that you might have trouble winning.

[dimseven 0]

Keep us updated on the legal process and the progress, I'm interested.

[theomen 0]

since this is a poker forum, I've got a $100 says he gets nothing.....where are you suing? must be state court. certainly isn't federal - not enough amount in controversy. Do you think they really care? I'll bet there isn't a single US asset that you can even attempt to attach. its not going to cost them a dime to defend this cause they honestly wont care - you can't ever recover even if you win. so you sue, you win, explain to me how you enforce your judgment. you sending the local county sherrif to gibralter to attach their assets? What if they refuse to appear? Exactly how do you serve service of process on them, let alone notice of deafult judgment? How do you receover money lost in what is arguably a potentially illegal transaction...? Maybe poker is somehow legal in your house in Cal (hey - you're the one arguing that you have jurisdiction). If they have US assets - then fantastic, run with it. If they don't, your judgment and a $1.50 will get you a ride on the bus. (also might also want to check before you go too far whether PP's home country has adopted the unirofm consent to foreign judgments act [somethign like that, i forget the whoel name]). lot to think about - I wouldn't get too excited, civ pro 101 has very little to do with complex international litigation. good luck though....if you win I'll change my avatar or something.

[playingtowin 0]

I just finished a rough draft of the complaint. Apparantly, I did consent to jurisdiction in someplace called Gilbralter????? Regardless, me and one of my old classmates scoured through the whole T&C and there is nothing prohibiting datamining. So it looks like the suit will go foward. Thank god I'm a lawyer or all of this would be impossible. The plan is to finish up the final draft of my formal complaint within the hour. I have PartyGaming's legal departments fax number and I will fax it over to them tonight with instructions to call me within 24 hours or I will file suit. The whole situation with Gilbralter is pretty simple. I can go before a judge and argue forum nonconvience. That is part of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and there is a tremendous amount of case law on matter in my favor. I honestly don't know if there this is worth 6 grand! My hope is that their legal department will realize that it will cost them over a hundred grand to litigate this and just give me my money back, reinstate my account, and give me a stiff warning. I'll let you guys know what their response is. I hope it isn't "suck my ****"The clause means nothing in reality. When applied to the balancing test, I win. I will have to litigate under Gibralter law, but it will be on my turf. That's Civ Pro 101 baby. The law is awesome.

Not to rain on ur parade dude, but party does have clause on their site that explicity prohibits use of these types of software/programs. It is under 'unfair advantage over other players'...u obviously didn't scour through enough of the t&c...

[bdc30 0]

since this is a poker forum, I've got a $100 says he gets nothing.....where are you suing? must be state court. certainly isn't federal - not enough amount in controversy. Do you think they really care? I'll bet there isn't a single US asset that you can even attempt to attach. its not going to cost them a dime to defend this cause they honestly wont care - you can't ever recover even if you win. so you sue, you win, explain to me how you enforce your judgment. you sending the local county sherrif to gibralter to attach their assets? What if they refuse to appear? Exactly how do you serve service of process on them, let alone notice of deafult judgment? How do you receover money lost in what is arguably a potentially illegal transaction...? Maybe poker is somehow legal in your house in Cal (hey - you're the one arguing that you have jurisdiction). If they have US assets - then fantastic, run with it. If they don't, your judgment and a $1.50 will get you a ride on the bus. (also might also want to check before you go too far whether PP's home country has adopted the unirofm consent to foreign judgments act [somethign like that, i forget the whoel name]). lot to think about - I wouldn't get too excited, civ pro 101 has very little to do with complex international litigation. good luck though....if you win I'll change my avatar or something.

now that's what I call PWNED

[FourFlusher 0]

I like the go to the press thing...bad pub has to bother them more than lawsuits.

[spikymarv99 0]

since this is a poker forum, I've got a $100 says he gets nothing.....where are you suing? must be state court. certainly isn't federal - not enough amount in controversy. Do you think they really care? I'll bet there isn't a single US asset that you can even attempt to attach. its not going to cost them a dime to defend this cause they honestly wont care - you can't ever recover even if you win. so you sue, you win, explain to me how you enforce your judgment. you sending the local county sherrif to gibralter to attach their assets? What if they refuse to appear? Exactly how do you serve service of process on them, let alone notice of deafult judgment? How do you receover money lost in what is arguably a potentially illegal transaction...? Maybe poker is somehow legal in your house in Cal (hey - you're the one arguing that you have jurisdiction). If they have US assets - then fantastic, run with it. If they don't, your judgment and a $1.50 will get you a ride on the bus. (also might also want to check before you go too far whether PP's home country has adopted the unirofm consent to foreign judgments act [somethign like that, i forget the whoel name]). lot to think about - I wouldn't get too excited, civ pro 101 has very little to do with complex international litigation. good luck though....if you win I'll change my avatar or something.

Sue in federal court.... diversity citizenship.... freshen up on your Civ Pro. Service will cost all of $500 will they will have to pay for if they do not agree to waive service. PartyGaming has offices in London, that is where there headquarters are. You forget that PartyGaming is a publicly traded buisness in England. Assets are VERY easy to attain. I think this is getting ahead of ourselves. I honestly believe that by tommorow afternoon I will have my money and be back on Party. If they do not show up to court for the forum nonconvience hearing (if I even take it that far), they will be in default. At which time, I will ask that US law be applied to the case at bar, which will be granted. Where did you go to law school? Where have you practiced? Please don't flame my knowledge without being able to back to back it up. BTW.... I went to UCLA (#15) and I was a junior associate at Latham & Watkins (in the transcational law department) for two years... beat that.. You are trying hard, but your arguments a flawed without any supporting factors. Cite case law noob. Your turn.

[PrtyPSux 0]

We should all boycott party, I swear, these guys are the devil. They have the right to take anything from anyone at anytime without even telling you...personally I only keep enough money to play 2 tables, everything else I cash out. Really though, I wouldnt mind completely quitting on party if a bunch of other people agree to it. I doubt it would ever happen, but It would be reaaally cool if everyone just moved to bodog or stars or whatever...These assholes need to realize we're their bread and butter. Without us, they have ****. Their customer support is TERRIBLE, their T&C's are in covered loopholes that give them the advantage for everything. I've heard horror stories about accounts being frozen and its getting out of hand now. All these guys care about is money, and I'm sure it's going to come back and bite them in the ***.

[rogerwilco 0]

its not like Poker Edge where you have a database available that many players can tap into. It just benefits the person who takes the motivation to do it. IMO, the people who are against it are the ones who never bothered with it and those that are for it are those that took the time to do it. Datamining has helped me, of course, but so does PT and PAHUD, if we are gonna ban DMing then why not ban both of those tools, they also help the player who takes the time to use them just as much.

I think there is a difference between getting statistics about other players by playing at a table using Poker Tracker+Poker Ace and getting those stats without having money at the table. [and ot: I don't even think, it is a real advantage, imo you only need a couple dozen hands to get somewhat of a picture about what kind of player another person is and often you'll have played with some of the others before]But I also think, that conficating the money in an account because of doing that is way too severe. Partypoker should have just told the OP to "stop or else..."

[theomen 0]

Sue in federal court.... diversity citizenship.... freshen up on your Civ Pro. Service will cost all of $500 will they will have to pay for if they do not agree to waive service. PartyGaming has offices in London, that is where there headquarters are. You forget that PartyGaming is a publicly traded buisness in England. Assets are VERY easy to attain. I think this is getting ahead of ourselves. I honestly believe that by tommorow afternoon I will have my money and be back on Party. If they do not show up to court for the forum nonconvience hearing (if I even take it that far), they will be in default. At which time, I will ask that US law be applied to the case at bar, which will be granted. Where did you go to law school? Where have you practiced? Please don't flame my knowledge without being able to back to back it up. BTW.... I went to UCLA (#15) and I was a junior associate at Latham & Watkins (in the transcational law department) for two years... beat that.. You are trying hard, but your arguments a flawed without any supporting factors. Cite case law noob. Your turn.

I call.graduated from Univ of Wisconsin (#35). private practice for 3 years(medium sized firm, also a transactional attorney, among other thigns), in house for past year. Now associate counsel for a major organization with over 30 departments and close to 7000 employees (one of only two attorneys responsible for all operations). might want to brush up on YOUR civ pro.... How about the federal rules of civil procedure for a cite?28 U.S.C. 1332.

Section 1332. Diversity of citizenship; amount in controversy; costs (a) The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions where the matter in controversy exceeds the sum or value of $75,000, exclusive of interest and costs, and is between - (1) citizens of different States; (2) citizens of a State and citizens or subjects of a foreign state; (3) citizens of different States and in which citizens or subjects of a foreign state are additional parties; and (4) a foreign state, defined in section 1603(a) of this title, as plaintiff and citizens of a State or of different States. For the purposes of this section, section 1335, and section 1441, an alien admitted to the United States for permanent residence shall be deemed a citizen of the State in which such alien is domiciled.

Thank you and GOOD DAY sir.seriously man - I really do hope you get your money back. That royally blows to lose $6k. I would be pissed as all hell. But I just don't think you're going to get very far with the lawsuit. If they do have assets in london, that definitely helps. your a transactional attorney - use those negotiation skills, hope you get your cash back.newb my a$$ :glare:edit: and I wasn't flaming your knowledge. I was just of the impression that you were way ahead of yourself and hadn't thought things through. it was clear from the strategy you were pursuing that you were either a law student or a fairly new attorney without a lot of litigation experience. you were missing some important considerations, so I just wanted to point them out. I will admit that I was a bit of a ****, but its the FCP forums, I thought that was some kind of requirement or they banned you I'm not a litigator either, but I need to know how to analyze a wide variety of issues for my job, even if I'm not the one who ends up doing the heavy lifting. Seriously, good Luck and I hope you have your $$ back soon.

[lew189 0]

OK, slow down everybody. I haven't played at party since FCP came along. Are you saying I can't use poker tracker & poker ace HUD at Party anymore? I was just about to redeposit there. wtf??

[GodOfEntropy 0]

OK, slow down everybody. I haven't played at party since FCP came along. Are you saying I can't use poker tracker & poker ace HUD at Party anymore? I was just about to redeposit there. wtf??

You can still use PokerAce and Pokertracker, but only at the tables you are actively participating at...by the way, who is that in your avatar?

[slash 0]

All of this legal talk is a little academic, in my opinion. You aren't looking to win the suit, and you'd prefer not to have to file it. Yeah, you might be able to win a contract dispute on a theory of the unconscionability of the "unfettered discretion" clause. Or you might be able to argue that you were unaware of the scope and thus could not agree to it - and as a result, it should be excluded from the contract as a whole. But you don't want to have to do any of that. You just want to make it look good enough that they feel like they'll have to spend even an hour answering your complaint, if you do file it. Find some way to get diversity jurisdiction under 28 USC 1332 (attachment seems like the best way), argue your forum non conveniens point, argue your unfair bargaining point (the "unfettered discretion" term"), and argue that PartyPoker's actions in confiscating your money were made in bad faith. I'm not sure you can win any of these arguments, but it doesn't matter. Party wants to stay out of court, particularly in the US, if at all possible.Fax it to them and say you'll file within 24 hours if they don't at the very least refund your money. Reinstating your account might be asking for a bit much, but go ahead and try. If you do a good enough job that they think they'll have to have one of their attorneys show up to file summary judgment motions, even, it won't be worth it to them for $6,000.For a couple of attorneys (that apparently went to good schools), you guys have serious problems with grammar and spelling. While you're at it, see if you can sue them to have the court issue an injuction against the airing of those annoying, god-awful commercials that are on all the time with the annoying lady singing and the dude playing cards with a blow-up doll or whatever.Good luck. Keep us posted on what happens.

[ColeSLaw 0]

it was clear from the strategy you were pursuing that you were either a law student or a fairly new attorney without a lot of litigation experience. you were missing some important considerations, so I just wanted to point them out

What are you talking about?If you were a litigator, you would know your bargaining position is weak and file to force a response and prove you are serious. You both have shown flaws in your arguments, but the contest winner is who can be less of an ***.Please keep us updated.Nice post slash, but I thought "unaware of the scope and thus could not agree to it - and as a result, it should be excluded from the contract as a whole" doesn't prevent contract formation and would not be a ground. I might be wrong.

[slash 0]

Nice post slash, but I thought "unaware of the scope and thus could not agree to it - and as a result, it should be excluded from the contract as a whole" doesn't prevent contact formation and would not be a ground. I might be wrong.

It's a common myth about the law that whether or not you read a contract before you sign it (or agree via digital means) matters with respect to contract formation. I also didn't mean that it would prevent formation - rather, that the term would drop out and the rest of the contract would stand. If that term drops out of the contract, then OP can argue that PP didn't have sufficient cause for confiscating his funds. Like I said, I'm not sure any of these arguments are really that strong, but that isn't the point. The point is haling them into court, even when they're likely to prevail, and forcing them to devote institutional time and resources to putting together the necessary response...over a measly (to a multi-billion dollar company like Party) $6,000. As they say, Party wipes its *** with $6,000 and they're not likely to go to great lengths to hang on to OP's little (to them) chunk of change.In addition, I'm no expert on contract law, but I would be surprised to learn that "unfettered discretion" clauses were held to be very meritorious or enforceable by the courts. If they are, then a company like party could confiscate everyone's account, for any reason they might dream up, shut down, and take off with the money. I feel like there's a strong public policy argument against that.I think it is also probably a myth that PartyPoker is immune to jurisdiction in the United States because of its location in Gibraltar. Under an Asahi analysis, you could make a pretty convincing argument, I think, that they have proactively sought to conduct business in the United States (what the Brennan test would call purposeful availment), were fully aware that their product would reach the stream of commerce within the US, and intended that to be the result...let alone the fact that a substantial percentage of their yearly revenue is derived from the use of their product in the United States by its citizens.But maybe there's something quirky about Gibraltar that I'm not thinking of right now that stops it. It's early here and I'm a little hungover. I'd think at the very least, if there was a big enough case, the US courts (or DOJ or private attorney) could enlist the help of the British market to freeze PP's assets subject to their submission to the jurisdiction of US courts.

[lew189 0]

You can still use PokerAce and Pokertracker, but only at the tables you are actively participating at...by the way, who is that in your avatar?

Thank you very much. Actually, I don't know who that is in my avatar, other than that it's someone I'd like to meet...