Scott3705 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I worked myself into a mess of a hand here. I'm not sure if I played this right or not. Input appreciated.1/2 nl sports.com (Fairly loose and passive table)UTG $250; he's the only aggressive player at this table. I haven't seen many showdowns, but I feel like he is being very creative (maybe bordering on FPS)Me: $290UTG raises to 6I find KK in MP2 and reraise to 18. Folds around and he calls.Flop: $39QQ8 rainbowUTG checks. To be honest, I really hate this flop because I am going to get C/Red here and I have no idea whether or not this player has a Q. (yes, he does raise and call a reraises preflop with KQ, AQ, and KQ). If I was going to bet here, I wanted to be sure of what I was going to do if he C/red. I wasn't sure, so I checked.Turn 10 UTG bets $201. This seems like a value bet to me. to me it appears that he thinks I have a smaller pair and is trying not to scare me away. Right now, bells are going off in my head that I'm beat. But I call.River: JI can't beat anything anymore. UTG bets $20. I have to call that.Anyone have any input on any streets. Mostly the flop decision is where this hand could have really been different. Link to post Share on other sites
NocturnalRob 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I put a bet in on the flop of $25 or so. If he check-raises you, I pop it up again. From there, i guess it depends. Hard to put him on a queen. But the longer you let someone that aggressive stick around and see free cards, the more confident they'll get that they have the best hand, and the larger their bets become. By checking this flop, I think you basically give the pot away.Raise on the turn too, if it actually gets to that point.Then again, I think you're probably beat. Fold pre-flop. KK is a sucker's hand. Link to post Share on other sites
Dratj 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 What's FPS? Anyways, I don't mind how you played this hand, a little passive but if you lose, you lose the minimum. He might have AA, QQ, AQ, KQ, 88, JJ, 10 10 and even AK, all of which have you beat. What hand could you really have beat on that flop? Just AK, JJ and 10 10. The only way you could have been sure is to bet the pot size on the flop to get rid of those hands. If he smooth calls or pops you on the flop, you might have to let your hand go because you have to give him credit for something strong to bet like that out of position. By betting out the flop, if you have him beat, you take the pot down but if he has you beat, you lose the same amount as the way you played the hand. It's tough to lay an overpair down to a small bet on the river. I would have payed it off too. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 What's FPS? Anyways, I don't mind how you played this hand, a little passive but if you lose, you lose the minimum. He might have AA, QQ, AQ, KQ, 88, JJ, 10 10 and even AK, all of which have you beat. What hand could you really have beat on that flop? Just AK, JJ and 10 10. The only way you could have been sure is to bet the pot size on the flop to get rid of those hands. If he smooth calls or pops you on the flop, you might have to let your hand go because you have to give him credit for something strong to bet like that out of position. By betting out the flop, if you have him beat, you take the pot down but if he has you beat, you lose the same amount as the way you played the hand. It's tough to lay an overpair down to a small bet on the river. I would have payed it off too.FPS = Fancy Play Syndrome.My thinking on the flop is that as I have defined my hand, he knows I don't have a Q and will make a play to represent it if he does not have it. However, I was 50/50 as to what he would do with a queen here. I should probably clarify, I was not worried I might get C/Red, I was fairly certain that I was going to be C/Red here if I bet the pot. Therefore, betting will not get 1010 and JJ to fold. 1010 and JJ are going to reraise me here.Rob: As far as getting into a pissing match on the flop, I am basically just saying let's get all the chips in. Pot bet for $40, reraised to $100, I have to push as the pot's too big. Bad line IMO unless you are just saying, if he has a Queen so be it. Which maybe I should have believed too.Edit: I also wanted to add that if he were to C/R me here, it is classic Brunson as he is putting me a decision for all my chips w/o sacrificing all his chips. Pushing at his C/R would assure me of either getting a fold from a weaker hand or getting a call from a Q or AA. Link to post Share on other sites
Kaedin 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Not to sound rude, but you sound like you're playing a little scared. On the flop, there's still a good chance that you have the best hand - you won't find that out by checking. By checking the flop, even if he has a small pp, you're giving him the ability to take the hand away from you.It sounds to me like you dont want to play against this guy unless you hvae the stone cold nuts. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 Not to sound rude, but you sound like you're playing a little scared. On the flop, there's still a good chance that you have the best hand - you won't find that out by checking. By checking the flop, even if he has a small pp, you're giving him the ability to take the hand away from you.It sounds to me like you dont want to play against this guy unless you hvae the stone cold nuts.Totally understand this comment. This is what I was basically wondering here. In this hand, I attempted to keep this pot small. Clearly I did exactly what I was hoping to do based on how big the pot is by the end of the hand. I will say, by checking the flop: I am not giving this hand away. I fully intend to get to showdown here as long as the board doesn't get awful. (which it did). The line I keep seeing is that I gain no information from checking. Agreed. My contention is that with this player, I gain no information by betting either because I see his line on me, and it is the same in the best and worst case scenarios for me. What i do see is his ability to put me to a decision for all my chips w/o risking all of his chips. Therefore, I almost have to make the decision of whether or not he has me beat based purely on a range of hands that I am willing to give him based on his preflop play. So if I bet the flop, I am going to play it till the end for all my chips. I guess this would be ok if I were to bet, call on the flop and call a push on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
petersun 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I think you have to raise the turn here. I understand you want to keep the pot small, but I think you did that by not going crazy on the flop. The turn reraise will give you info and mask your hand a little bit. For example, you could be representing a range of hands from kks, aa, trip queens, eights full of queens, and tens full of queens.I'm assuming he won't believe your reraised with Q10, Q9, or KJ.If you face resisitance on the turn after the reraise, then you know you are beat and won't call any river bet or turn reraise of your reraise. Naturally, your reraise can be smallish (like 60) to add to the illusion of strength. FPS = Fancy Play Syndrome.My thinking on the flop is that as I have defined my hand, he knows I don't have a Q and will make a play to represent it if he does not have it. However, I was 50/50 as to what he would do with a queen here.On a rainbow flop, do you always bet your trips? If not, then checking and betting or reraising on the turn could indicate you hit trips. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 I think you have to raise the turn here. I understand you want to keep the pot small, but I think you did that by not going crazy on the flop. The turn reraise will give you info and mask your hand a little bit. For example, you could be representing a range of hands from kks, aa, trip queens, eights full of queens, and tens full of queens.I'm assuming he won't believe your reraised with Q10, Q9, or KJ.If you face resisitance on the turn after the reraise, then you know you are beat and won't call any river bet or turn reraise of your reraise. Naturally, your reraise can be smallish (like 60) to add to the illusion of strength.On a rainbow flop, do you always bet your trips? If not, then checking and betting or reraising on the turn could indicate you hit trips.I like this line. I think it takes a lot of his play away here. By reraising the turn here (I think $80 is good here), I think I'm putting him to the decision. If he goes any further with anything aggressive here, he's playing it for all his chips. i think though that reraising the turn puts me on an AA KK that is simply not scared that he has a queen. So I may be taking it down right here. Which is ok.Edit: i also bet at everything. So this flop check is going to be really weird for the villain Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 Guess no one else had any thoughts on this. bumped just in case. Villain had AA in this particular hand. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Guess no one else had any thoughts on this. bumped just in case. Villain had AA in this particular hand.Interesting. He probably stacks you if he overcomes his FPS and re-raises preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Beal 0 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I worked myself into a mess of a hand here. I'm not sure if I played this right or not. Input appreciated.1/2 nl sports.com (Fairly loose and passive table)UTG $250; he's the only aggressive player at this table. I haven't seen many showdowns, but I feel like he is being very creative (maybe bordering on FPS)Me: $290UTG raises to 6I find KK in MP2 and reraise to 18. Folds around and he calls.Flop: $39QQ8 rainbowUTG checks. To be honest, I really hate this flop because I am going to get C/Red here and I have no idea whether or not this player has a Q. (yes, he does raise and call a reraises preflop with KQ, AQ, and KQ). If I was going to bet here, I wanted to be sure of what I was going to do if he C/red. I wasn't sure, so I checked.Turn 10 UTG bets $201. This seems like a value bet to me. to me it appears that he thinks I have a smaller pair and is trying not to scare me away. Right now, bells are going off in my head that I'm beat. But I call.River: JI can't beat anything anymore. UTG bets $20. I have to call that.Anyone have any input on any streets. Mostly the flop decision is where this hand could have really been different.This is a classic case where the best players will win the pot with or without a Q using their positional advantage. By that I mean all they need to do is bet that their opponent does NOT have a Q (which is a great bet) and proceed. I would bet the flop and try to fold someone with AA (or KK!) or mr JJ/TT that are going to suck out on me later in the hand.Find out RIGHT NOW if you are beat. If he can outplay you with an inferior hand to yours while out of position, he deserves the pot.PS Villain's fancy play syndrome almost cost him this pot (and should have), but in the end it saved you some money. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted March 31, 2006 Author Share Posted March 31, 2006 This is a classic case where the best players will win the pot with or without a Q using their positional advantage. By that I mean all they need to do is bet that their opponent does NOT have a Q (which is a great bet) and proceed. I would bet the flop and try to fold someone with AA (or KK!) or mr JJ/TT that are going to suck out on me later in the hand.Find out RIGHT NOW if you are beat. If he can outplay you with an inferior hand to yours while out of position, he deserves the pot.PS Villain's fancy play syndrome almost cost him this pot (and should have), but in the end it saved you some money.As the reraiser preflop, I am at a disadvantage as I have defined my hand to not have a queen unless I turned 4 queens. Because of this, I am not folding KK or AA. I may fold TT/JJ against most players... but that's not the case here. If this particular villain has tt/jj he is going to raise me if I bet this flop. As I said, betting the flop IMO is basically saying that he doesn't have a Queen, I'm going to play this to the river (which may be the right line to take here). I really think it is impossible given the action, that I can represent a queen. As far as outplaying... maybe my check is outplaying him as it removes his line on me. Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Beal 0 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 As the reraiser preflop, I am at a disadvantage as I have defined my hand to not have a queen unless I turned 4 queens. Because of this, I am not folding KK or AA. I may fold TT/JJ against most players... but that's not the case here. If this particular villain has tt/jj he is going to raise me if I bet this flop. As I said, betting the flop IMO is basically saying that he doesn't have a Queen, I'm going to play this to the river (which may be the right line to take here). I really think it is impossible given the action, that I can represent a queen. As far as outplaying... maybe my check is outplaying him as it removes his line on me.Wow if you only reraise AA KK QQ, then now you see why you should reraise more than just those hands (with position). I'll reraise you with as low as AJ in that spot and take the pot away from you most of the time no matter what the flop is. Put the fear of God in them. Reraise with 83 and show it to them. Then do it again 10 minutes later. Then the game has begun. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted March 31, 2006 Author Share Posted March 31, 2006 Wow if you only reraise AA KK QQ, then now you see why you should reraise more than just those hands (with position). I'll reraise you with as low as AJ in that spot and take the pot away from you most of the time no matter what the flop is. Put the fear of God in them. Reraise with 83 and show it to them. Then do it again 10 minutes later. Then the game has begun. Yes, I only reraise an UTG raiser with AA-JJ when I don't have very favorable position (MP2). Against anything else except a rock, I am not taking an UTG raiser off a hand preflop unless I make a ridiculous overbet. Reraising an UTG raiser with anything less than big pairs is just asking to play a big pot with a marginal hand against some one with a big hand especially online w/ such short attention spans. Link to post Share on other sites
oceansize 0 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I once made a post of a similar situation I was in in a house tourney game, where I folded the unthinkable, and I never let it get past the flop. Early, like second or third hand dealt, we are all in for $20 and start with 2000 stacks and blinds up every 15 min with 25/50 blinds to start.The UTG folds, and then folded around to the button who raises to 100, I re-raise to 300 from the SB with KK, BB (my friend Errol who is the one that sticks it to me here) re-raises to 400 (odd raise, but that is his MO) button folds, I raise to 600, BB calls. Flop comes rainbowed with AT4. I check (having played with him, he checks if he has something here, he bets if he has nothing here), he bets 300 I raise 600 and he goes all-in. Now I pause and think this through. I now have 1200 of my starting stack stuck in the pot. On top of this I really had to give him credit for the Ace. He can get kind of crazy, and thats what disguises his hands so well. Whether he has K9 or AA, he does sometimes play them the same way.My only option here is to call all in or fold. And here I do think I am beat. He could have very well flopped top two. He could be playing with a naked ace and in that case his duece side card still has him way ahead of me. Long story short, I was certain he could not make plays like this without an ace and that made me a loser and I folded.I fought back that game from my 800 that I stuck myself with early and ended up taking about $160 for my 1st place win. As we are leaving, I pull Errol aside (who I eventually got every chip back from) and ask him about the hand and what he had. He said KT. Now in hind sight, I wanted to steam, but then again, steam about what? I made a bad read in one spot followed by a bunch of good reads, came back and won. Steam about what?So, in short (sorry this became a book), if you are ballzy enough to decide you are good enough to start making reads and plays, then you have to give yourself credit when you decide to lay down a monster hand. If you are dead certain that you are a big long shot and are losing than why is folding a big hand stupid? In talking to Errol afterwards, of course the entire table was relayed the hand, and everyone there had thought that I had some kind of big pocket pair and that Errol had either a set or a strong ace. They also all said that they would have gone all in pre-flop rather than make it 600 to go with KK. But then again, that night, I had still beaten all of them. Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Beal 0 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Yes, I only reraise an UTG raiser with AA-JJ when I don't have very favorable position (MP2). Against anything else except a rock, I am not taking an UTG raiser off a hand preflop unless I make a ridiculous overbet. Reraising an UTG raiser with anything less than big pairs is just asking to play a big pot with a marginal hand against some one with a big hand especially online w/ such short attention spans.I am a creative guy. Link to post Share on other sites
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