Bubba83 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I have been experience a ton of trouble with people I suspect trying to play back at me. For some odd reason, every tournament I play in I have some of the largest stacks in the tournament on my immediate or general left. If I ever get moved to a new table, all the short stacks are on my right, and the big stack on my left.In these situations I have felt like making continuation bets against people who have me covered, even in position, is ineffective. However, I don't see how else to play the hands since I think if I check behind, most people are firing at me on the turn if they have a comfortable stack.Here is a routine hand I have been coming across.Moved to this new table about 9 hands ago, haven't opened a pot yet, have limped with a PP from MP and that's it. No real reads on BB.Blinds are 50/100I have 2900 in chips, which is about average.BB has 6500 in chips.I am dealt Kh Qh in the cut-off.Folds to me, I raise to 270, folds to BB who calls.Flop: 9d 7h 2c (590 in the pot)BB checks, I bet 300, BB raises to 600 (min raise), I think, and call.Turn: 6d (1790 in pot)BB bets 800, I fold.These pots have just been killing me. It's impossible that they always flop something here and make this type of play, it's happening so often. It looks to me like he could be min-raising me to see where I'm at with any hand, If I just call, and no broadway card comes, He can now easily steal the pot. Should I ever re-raise his flop bet? Raise all-in on the turn? I'll come into this portion of the tournament at the end of the first hour or the beginning/middle of the 2nd hour with a healthy stack and be wittled away by hands exactly like this. How do I combat this? I'm tired of being a short stack come bubble tiime. Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 These pots have just been killing me. It's impossible that they always flop something here and make this type of play, it's happening so often. It looks to me like he could be min-raising me to see where I'm at with any hand, If I just call, and no broadway card comes, He can now easily steal the pot. Should I ever re-raise his flop bet? Raise all-in on the turn? I'll come into this portion of the tournament at the end of the first hour or the beginning/middle of the 2nd hour with a healthy stack and be wittled away by hands exactly like this. How do I combat this? I'm tired of being a short stack come bubble tiime.Without a good read, there's not much you can do in that situation. If you keep getting check-raised by the same guy, you obviously have to change something up, but you can't quit continuation betting in these types of pots.How big of a sample size are you basing this on? Variance works in strange ways. I don't think it's too out of line to suggest that you might not be doing anything wrong if you are basing this on 10-15 tournaments. Link to post Share on other sites
amarillotg 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 this is probably just variance. i notice the same thing sometimes, then i'll go a few touries where im scooping all of these pots.just be aware of your table image. if someone has come over the top and then you notice everyone starts doing it, you're probably going to have to switch things up or take a stand.on a side note im usually folding to these min-raises. even if you spike an over on the turn you could still be miles behind. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 It just feels like on certain boards like the one described above my opponents know it's unlikely I hit anything and could easily be making a play at me, which pretty much makes my continuation bet seem useless.What if I just checked on the flop every once in a while after making this type of raise with some made hands and some overcards to prevent opponents from thinking they can do this to me? Link to post Share on other sites
Rocketwadster 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I think it may be a case of people trying to counter Harrington. Over the past couple of months, I have seen far more continuation bets and probe bets than I can keep track of, and also seen way more raises to those bets than I would like to see. I personally haven't been able to adopt the Harrington-counter as of yet (usually due to not having enough chips to work with), but it is very effective. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Play outside the box and keep them guessing. If you have a decent sized stack heading into the second break or so, just lay low and wait for premium hands, don't get suckered into betting wars with larger stacks and take it one hand at a time. Most people have a habit of panicking when they feel they are short-stacked. This can be an advantage or disadvantage, dependant on your position. Remember to count your M's, mind your Q's and DON'T PANIC! Pick your spots and, hopefully, a hand will come your way and you'll double up.Don't forget that Harrington advises mixing things up a lot. Cont bet not working? Use another tool. People playing back at you? Change gears and hit them with a premium hand. No decent cards? Pick a hand and push it to the max to take a stand. BTW, your "situation" is mindful of how I feel a lot. I'm guessing we're not alone. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 I'm sure most of the players who have read HOH feel this way quite a bit. Does anyone have any counter to this? I play a great shortstack game as we approach the bubble but I do end up having to win 2-3 probable races to final table. I'd rather that not be the case.Would love to hear from Grinder/Zimmer on this issue and also Copern.If we do decide to make a play here...I think calling on the flop with the intention of raising all in on a turn that we don't improve on is probably less favorable than re-raising all-in on the flop. My reasoning would be that he could just move us in or over commit himself with the size of his turn bet so our play has no fold equity. If we run into a set then it obviously really sucks, but if he just has top pair and calls our flop all-in, and we catch a king or queen to double, then the bullshit will certainly stop there. I don't think people could possibly make that play if they know you're willing to come over the top without the overpair.Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Obviously you need to make adjustments as you gather more information about the players at your table, but the truth is that you are not going to run into a lot of players capable of thinking above level I in a $10 MTT. Unless the villain has given you reason to fear the check-raise, you should be continuation betting. Link to post Share on other sites
etip 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 It just feels like on certain boards like the one described above my opponents know it's unlikely I hit anything and could easily be making a play at me, which pretty much makes my continuation bet seem useless.What if I just checked on the flop every once in a while after making this type of raise with some made hands and some overcards to prevent opponents from thinking they can do this to me?bingo Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 It just feels like on certain boards like the one described above my opponents know it's unlikely I hit anything and could easily be making a play at me, which pretty much makes my continuation bet seem useless.What if I just checked on the flop every once in a while after making this type of raise with some made hands and some overcards to prevent opponents from thinking they can do this to me?I think you nailed it here.Continuation betting with KQ when you hit your hand is not likely to do much for you, since its a situation where you only get called when you are beaten. It does give weak Aces a draw against you, so throwing one out once in a while to mix it up is fine. Once youve mixed up your play with made hands they will tend to be more cautious when you do cb.With an A of my own I would be more inclined to cb when I dont hit since it may very well be good, and will get played at if you check it. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 Continuation betting with KQ when you don't hit your hand is not likely to do much for you, since its a situation where you only get called when you are beaten.FYP? Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 FYP?FIW (fixed it wrong).When you hit your hand and bet out lower pairs are likely to respect the overcards. As I said later in the post, because of naked Aces you need to probe occasionally. If there are draws on board then of course you want to bet when you make your hand. Otherwise let them bet into you. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 Okay, was confused a bit by the initial reply is all but you cleared it up. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Okay, was confused a bit by the initial reply is all but you cleared it up.NP..and BTW this was the situation I was recalling Edog talking about in another thread. I think in that one we missed the flop, which he doesnt directly address..at least not where I thought it was. Link to post Share on other sites
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