question regarding flipping over cards in nl

[corsonooga 0]

does anyone know what the rules say regarding flipping cards over before calling final bet? To get a read, I mean.Not sure where this is stated but I know Ive read of it happening before.

[Douglas333 0]

an exposed hand is a dead hand

[Azzy666 0]

If you flip over your cards BEFORE calling the bet, you have folded. At least, these are the rules at most major B&M tables - you cannot show your cards on purpose before the end of a hand.

[Emptyeye 0]

I believe Doyle Brunson actually talked about this as a tactic in the first Super/System.Having said that, most casino/tourneys now have a rule that if you show your hand at any point before a "final call", your hand is considered dead.

[Socrates 0]

Depends on the rules of the game you are playing. In our poker room, we have a rule that if a player is all in and it is heads up, you can announce that you are turning your cards over, but not folding.

[corsonooga 0]

thanks for the input. I know I read it and I thought it was in super systemI just didnt know whether he said it was legit or not. I thought it was unethical but still legal as long as they were exposed to everyone and not one person.

[Devilkin 0]

According to Robert's Rules of Poker:"6. If you show cards to another player during or after a deal, any player at the table has the right to see those exposed cards. Cards shown during a deal to a player not in the pot should only be shown to all players when the deal is finished."and . . "12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card."Source: http://www.diamondcs.net/~thecoach/RobsPkrRules3.htmDev

[dms26 3]

I believe it depends on whether its a tournament or cash game, some cash games will let you turn them over. Most tournies will not. Definately ask before you do it.

[ControlFreak 0]

From the 2005 WSOP Rules:

A player who exposes his or her cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his or her hand killed.

and ...

Penalties available for use by the Harrah's Tournament Director are verbal warnings - 10, 20, 30, and 40 minutes away from the table - and may be used with discretion. These may be used by Harrah's up to and including disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his or her chips removed from play.

From http://www.pokerpages.com/pokerinfo/tourna...5wsop-rules.htm

[UglyJimStudly 0]

does anyone know what the rules say regarding flipping cards over before calling final bet? To get a read, I mean.

It's against the house rules of many (probably most) cardrooms.

Not sure where this is stated but I know Ive read of it happening before.

It used to be very common, and still is in higher stakes games where cardroom rules are only loosely enforced (because the players prefer it that way). This and other forms of angle-shooting are discouraged in lower stakes games mostly because it slows the game down, and the cardroom wants fast games to get more rake.

[dead money 1]

flipping over ur cards does not fold ur hand. this is a common misconception. in cash games there is no penalty at all. in tournies the td will most likely give u a 15 minute penalty meaning u have to sit out for 15 mins. in the rules it states that there is no mandatory penalty for exposing hole cards. the decision rests solely on the td.

[VegasDreams 0]

an exposed hand is a dead hand

That would be incorrect, last time in Vegas played at the $500 min buy in N/L cash table at the Nugget. I am dealt KK UTG, raise it to $200 to go, folds around to the guy one off the button who goes all in. Folds to me, I turn to the dealer and tell him "My head is not being folded", I then flip them over to gauge the all in's reaction and ask him if he has them beat. Yes, a page from Doyle's SS book. The dealer said nothing, hand was not declared dead either. After a minute or so, the all in states "not folding as well" and flips over one of his, which is an A. I had a really good idea at this point I was ahead, for if he had AA, unless he was a total moron. He would not show any of his cards, so I called. The board did not improve me nor did he show his other before mucking at the end. Was a nice 1K plus improve for me, all that was conveyed to say "No your hand is not auto dead".

[justblaze 0]

flipping over ur cards does not fold ur hand. this is a common misconception. in cash games there is no penalty at all. in tournies the td will most likely give u a 15 minute penalty meaning u have to sit out for 15 mins. in the rules it states that there is no mandatory penalty for exposing hole cards. the decision rests solely on the td.

actually it is not a common misconception. exposing your card/s in tournament play is generally considered to make your hand dead. You may also incur time penalties, but the penalties are more subjective while the dead hand is almost always the case. In a cash game, you will likely be warned by the dealer, then by the floor, then have your hand killed or in an extreme case be removed from your seat. these rules can change from casino to casino, but this is the generally accepted norm.

[justblaze 0]

an exposed hand is a dead hand

That would be incorrect, last time in Vegas played at the $500 min buy in N/L cash table at the Nugget. I am dealt KK UTG, raise it to $200 to go, folds around to the guy one off the button who goes all in. Folds to me, I turn to the dealer and tell him "My head is not being folded", I then flip them over to gauge the all in's reaction and ask him if he has them beat. Yes, a page from Doyle's SS book. The dealer said nothing, hand was not declared dead either. After a minute or so, the all in states "not folding as well" and flips over one of his, which is an A. I had a really good idea at this point I was ahead, for if he had AA, unless he was a total moron. He would not show any of his cards, so I called. The board did not improve me nor did he show his other before mucking at the end. Was a nice 1K plus improve for me, all that was conveyed to say "No your hand is not auto dead".

just because the dealer failed to enforce a rule does not mean the rule isnt in play. I guarantee if you do that to me i will call the floor immediately and your hand will be killed. its called angle-shooting.

[PWetz00 0]

I had wondered about this as well.... as I have most years of the WSOP on DVD collection.... there were a few instances of this happening.... a player would be all-in..... another was pondering the call and would flip one card over at a time to get a sense of the other person's strength.... Only reason I have still wondered about this, is because in each case... the player who exposed their cards.... ended up folding anyway.I think the most recent case of this was in 1993 or 1994.... player flipped over K.... paired top card on board... but then showed weak kicker a few moments later...... then folded. Nothing was said then.... and I did read Doyle's advice that this was a useful tool..... which I understood as being a "legal" move. I suppose SS 1 was written quite some time ago, as was the instances of this happening on prior years WSOP main events.Thanks guys.

[sloshr 0]

I remember the final hand at the Commerce WPT last year, Vinnie bluffed all-in and Antonio stood up with one ace in each hand, showing them to everyone before finally saying I call. His hand was not declared dead and he won the tournament. If it was automatically dead, this could have been a huge controversy.

[justblaze 0]

I remember the final hand at the Commerce WPT last year, Vinnie bluffed all-in and Antonio stood up with one ace in each hand, showing them to everyone before finally saying I call. His hand was not declared dead and he won the tournament. If it was automatically dead, this could have been a huge controversy.

what angle was he shooting here? the rule is designed to prevent players from exposing their cards and gaging a reaction from players who are still in the hand.

[sloshr 0]

Obviously this was no angle, but that wouldn't stop some from calling the TD and asking to have the hand declared dead if that was the rule. Fortunately that didn't happen.I've seen people turning over the nuts on the river thinking their bet was called and had another player declare they raised and he didn't call; therefore his hand is dead. Any decent floorman would allow the winner to call the last bet, but this is why you shouldn't say that a hand is automatically dead if shown.

[snowbird 0]

Ive seen this happen alot. Only one time has anyone at my table said anything. It was duringa NL tourney in Vegas and the guy got raised all-in thought about it for around 30 seconds, said "can you beat this" and flipped over top pair, ace kicker. he looked at the guy and said call, then the other guy bitched to the dealer and the TD came over there and said his hand was not dead. He stated that because he did not push his cards toward the dealer, it was not dead. Wow that was bad writing...

[Guest XXEddie]

maybe they changed the rules but ESPN clasic shows a lot of poker from the early 90's I saw a couple times when someone was faced with an all in decision they showed their cards to try to get the others to react, they might have changed this rule

[snowbird 0]

maybe they changed the rules but ESPN clasic shows a lot of poker from the early 90's I saw a couple times when someone was faced with an all in decision they showed their cards to try to get the others to react, they might have changed this rule

yeah, i saw that on ESPN classic the other day also....can't remember who it was that did it...

[ElToasto 0]

It is always legal in a cash game to show your cards before the hand is over, as long as everyone sees them. Your hand is dead if you do it in tournaments.

[Socrates 0]

Come to think of it, I saw this at a bigger tourney in Vegas a few months ago. We were down to two tables and one guy moved all in, the other thought for sometime and then flipped his cards face up...the original player who went all in said "whew" and the other guy said "call". The original raiser freaked out when the dealer pushed the chips to the caller. The TD came over and recommened to the loser that he learn the rules of the game before playing again.

[RadGrad2005 0]

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