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Wrap-around Straight Draw


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Sorry no converter***** Hand History for Game 3779361107 *****0/0 Omaha Hi/Lo Game Table (PL) - Sun Mar 19 19:37:38 EST 2006Table Table 97230 (No DP) (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10Seat 1: strayjay ( $37.89)Seat 2: FrabjousDay ( $46.31)Seat 3: EASY_ONE ( $63.34)Seat 4: CallCleo ( $111.57)Seat 5: LoserMike ( $57.03)Seat 6: VILLAIN ( $50.27)Seat 7: mattspker ( $62.38)Seat 8: gaddyjr ( $50.25)Seat 9: rolandscot ( $36.13)Seat 10: Bigscooper ( $49.25)EASY_ONE posts small blind (0.25)CallCleo posts big blind (0.50)** Dealing down cards **Dealt to gaddyjr [ 5c, 9s, 8c, As ] LoserMike folds.VILLAIN calls (0.50)mattspker folds.gaddyjr calls (0.50)rolandscot calls (0.50)Bigscooper folds.strayjay folds.FrabjousDay folds.EASY_ONE calls (0.25)CallCleo checks.** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6s, 7d, Kh ] EASY_ONE checks.CallCleo bets (0.50)VILLAIN calls (0.50)gaddyjr raises (3) to 3rolandscot folds.EASY_ONE folds.CallCleo calls (2.50)VILLAIN raises (13.90) to 14.40While I have notes on about half of the table, I don't have anything on the Villain and can't remember ever playing with him before. Therefore, no read at all.My thinking:The preflop call was semi-loose, but I was double suited and had possible lows if opponents got counterfieted. On the flop I had a wrap-around straight draw, but not much of a low so I took a shot to see if I could win right there. When the villain came over the top, I figured the only hands he could possibly have were 77 or KK.Questions:1. Do you agree that the villain has defined his hand to a set? If not, what else could it be? Could he have a high and no low draw and be attempting to scoop? Low draw only?2. Do I have a good enough hand to call the raise? If I put him on the set is it profitable to call here? 3. What is my move and why?Thanks in advance.

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Not sure why you played the hand in the first place, as it isn't very good. This is a terrible flop for you, as you are basically only playing for half of the pot. Get out while you still can. Look at decisions, not results. :club:

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It sounds as if you could have seen the turn for .50 instead of raising.In any case, a 9 on the turn gives you a straight but not the nuts.Moral: don't play this hand pre-flop in MP unless you make better post-flop decisions.

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If you put him on the naked set here...which is definitely possible at these limits. You should jam here as long as you are heads up. The only way you are behind is if he has KK and a better low....and a lot of people will limp with any KK to hit a set. I even limp with KK quite a bit. I don't like the preflop call....not even sure about the flop raise....but after the reraise...it is a good opportunity to gamble here, I think.

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Thanks for the responses. I think the consensus is that first, I shouldn't have played the hand, and that second, it wasn't strong enough to deserve a flop raise.Reluctantly, I agree with both. One of the reasons I started playing PLO8 is b/c I got board folding tons of hands at NLHE. However, I still need to work on my PLO8 hand selection. Also, I think one thing this hand illustrates is how much you have to pay attention during a hand. When I saw the flop, all I could think was "wrap-around straight draw." It didn't even cross my mind that most of my outs created a low. FWIW, i ended up scooping a big pot, but the villain and a player I respect at the table berated my play for about the next 20 min. That's why I decided to post the hand.Thanks again.

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When I saw the flop, all I could think was "wrap-around straight draw." It didn't even cross my mind that most of my outs created a low.
Yeah, but if youre heads up with the guy...It's going to be tough for him to hold both ends if you think he has a set. If he does then I stick my money in with the worst of it I guess. At least you made the right decision after his push.
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i'm going to have to disagree rather strongly here, i think your hand is quite weak here. you are barely strong enough to call the minimum bet on the flop, since you have only 3 outs to a nut scoop, ignoring redraws.drawing to straights in O/8 is dangerous, since they are so easily counterfeitable. anyone with a naked low draw can easily make a running flush, full house, or the same/better straight.a naked KK here is not impossible, but its more likely they have some kind of low. your low is only 5-high, which is very weak.i'm used to playing at low limits, where the pots are usually multi-way, so a 5-high low draw is out of the question. in a 2 or 3-way pot, it is better.i hate this raise, since the worst thing you can do in PLO is give your opponent a chance to make a big raise while he currently has the best hand.depending on what you put him on, you can make this call, but I think it's a rather easy fold, though as I said, at very low limits, you don't have to worry as much about potentially missing marginal edges.its a cash game, so i don't think the fact that there are better opportunities to get your money in is a relevant argument, but I also don't think this is a particularly good spot. you may only be slightly ahead equity-wise, and more likely you are well behind, and you could be drawing very thin to a hand like A258, A289, A2KX, A3KX, 23KK, 24KK, etc.

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i'm going to have to disagree rather strongly here, i think your hand is quite weak here. you are barely strong enough to call the minimum bet on the flop, since you have only 3 outs to a nut scoop, ignoring redraws.drawing to straights in O/8 is dangerous, since they are so easily counterfeitable. anyone with a naked low draw can easily make a running flush, full house, or the same/better straight.a naked KK here is not impossible, but its more likely they have some kind of low. your low is only 5-high, which is very weak.i'm used to playing at low limits, where the pots are usually multi-way, so a 5-high low draw is out of the question. in a 2 or 3-way pot, it is better.i hate this raise, since the worst thing you can do in PLO is give your opponent a chance to make a big raise while he currently has the best hand.depending on what you put him on, you can make this call, but I think it's a rather easy fold, though as I said, at very low limits, you don't have to worry as much about potentially missing marginal edges.its a cash game, so i don't think the fact that there are better opportunities to get your money in is a relevant argument, but I also don't think this is a particularly good spot. you may only be slightly ahead equity-wise, and more likely you are well behind, and you could be drawing very thin to a hand like A258, A289, A2KX, A3KX, 23KK, 24KK, etc.
Sorry, Danny, but I think there is something significantly wrong with EVERY section of the above, which outweighs the occasional correct phrase.Vman is right on the money, IMO.I will see a flop in M or LP with this hand. I probably flat call the small flop bet and wait for the turn to hit before getting too excited. On the flop you need to be thinking about the potential bettability of your hand on the turn, and in this case there is plenty: you can get naked lows and sets to make a mistake and end up free-rolling them. Yes, occasionally you will run into a 4 card hand that spanks you, but that's life - and if you keep the pot small here, you can get away if there is significant action in front of you on the turn (if it was a significant bet and a re-raise before me on the flop, I am out of there). Or if the turn comes bad for you, you can go home.btw, flopped straights with no redraws and a one-way hand ARE dangerous, as are 8-out sraight draws with no back-up. Here you have 18 outs and back-up low (with cf protection). That's why getting it in here h/u against a set is not bad. He has to hit 2 cards from the 16 remaining 67JQK's - and dodge the backdoor flush if the board fails to pair - to scoop. I believe that you can discount the monster hands (set or 2 pair with low) as he would probably have raised the flop before it got to you.
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I didn't read the responses in details, but here's my thoughts.With so many players in the pot, I will just flat call. Why push others away when we are more likely drawing for half of the pot? Our outs are 4,5,8,9,T, two of them are not nut straights, any 4,5,8 can make a better low for the others, and we can be outdrawn. So why not just invite everyone in to see the river? If by the river our hands still hold it's not too late to raise for value (set holders are more likely to believe that you are jamming for the low, and some players just holding the low might just fold for not getting 1/4ed and hence you might scoop although the chance is low) . Anyway this hand is not a premium hand on the flop to raise to chase away potential customers.If 4,5,8 get there on the turn I will just flat call and hope for a 2 gets there on the river.If 9, T get there on the turn then I may or may not pot. It depends.I think the consensus is that first, I shouldn't have played the hand.You should if you can play post flop decently (you should be cautious playing those mediocre hands though, it's those hands that make you or break you). You can chase on the flop if you are comfortable folding your hand on the turn because of the implied odds. On the flop the pot is much smaller comparing to the pot on the turn and river.

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This is a tricky hand, with his massive re-raise, i think your assumption of top or middle set is correct. Another hand you may look at is he is open ended with the A2 nut low. In this situation i would put my opponent on a nut low draw with a good draw to the high, but that is a pretty bold play to make, but you def. need to see the turn.

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