.5/1 Qx S

[Actuary 3]

villan is 59/2/0.53 50 hands and plays like it, generallyHere I hit MP.And so my peel flop fold Turn UI mindset engagesI'm losing a lot, a WHOLE LOT of $$$ latelySo, I'll post some stuff i take for granted.Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Actuary is SB with 3 , Q . 2 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, Actuary completes, BB checks.Flop: (4 SB) 8 , A , Q (4 players)Actuary checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, Button folds, Actuary calls, BB folds.Turn: (3 BB) 4 (2 players)Actuary checks, MP1 bets, Actuary folds.Final Pot: 4 BB

[Zach6668 513]

Pretty standard, I think. I play it the same.- Zach

[doubleatrain 0]

I probably play it like you did. Pair and a backdoor flush draw is certainly enough to peel, but the pot is too small on the turn to keep drawing (which I would expect to be doing against someone this passive whose stats suggest he plays any ace) or call down.

[Zach6668 513]

I probably play it like you did. Pair and a backdoor flush draw is certainly enough to peel, but the pot is too small on the turn to keep drawing (which I would expect to be doing against someone this passive whose stats suggest he plays any ace) or call down.

Yeah

[bobbywithani 0]

Not a critique just a question. What do you do when you pick up a FD on the turn? Just Check/Call?

[Zach6668 513]

Not a critique just a question. What do you do when you pick up a FD on the turn? Just Check/Call?

In position, we can raise for a free showdown, potentially, but OOP, c/c is probably the best.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

crazy thing is, I once in awhile will call down , and those are the friggin pots I'm winningAny hand I have QQ, or TPtK on the flop, I lose.It like I forgot how to play.ok..So I figured this was ok.I'm just not improving on the turns ever, or I get a FD, then will sometimes call river with MP, which I think, is ok against non-passives, or retards that play 50%

[bobbywithani 0]

In position, we can raise for a free showdown, potentially, but OOP, c/c is probably the best.- Zach

Even in posistion raising for a free SD does not save us any BB. It's still two. Of course when our flush/two pair hit we would still bet the river anyway. Given that we are not in position and if, like mentioned earlier the FD hits and we do indeed check/call, what do we do when the river is a brick. I mean we have built the pot for ourselves and at that point we will be getting 7-1 to call. So do we call the river still after our draw misses? Sorry for the rambling a little drunk right now, but it seems like I am getting in situations like this all the time when trying to peel, and then I feel like I am getting decent odds when I don't hit and I call anyway.

[Zach6668 513]

Even in posistion raising for a free SD does not save us any BB. It's still two. Of course when our flush/two pair hit we would still bet the river anyway. Given that we are not in position and if, like mentioned earlier the FD hits and we do indeed check/call, what do we do when the river is a brick. I mean we have built the pot for ourselves and at that point we will be getting 7-1 to call. So do we call the river still after our draw misses? Sorry for the rambling a little drunk right now, but it seems like I am getting in situations like this all the time when trying to peel, and then I feel like I am getting decent odds when I don't hit and I call anyway.

Like Actuary said, depends on the villain.But the bold part is the reason for the free showdown raise. That's another thread though.

[Pancake407 0]

I play it the same, but im wondering if folding the flop isn't better.

[Zach6668 513]

I play it the same, but im wondering if folding the flop isn't better.

It's a small pot, that's a good option.- Zach

[doubleatrain 0]

I play it the same, but im wondering if folding the flop isn't better.

Agreed, though with some showdown value, I like to peel, hoping to improve on the turn, but if not, and the villain slows down, it's nice to have some winning chances.

[Actuary 3]

i'm as strong as a gutshot on the flop, no?accept if villan has AQ, not likely.peel is ok, imo

[Zach6668 513]

i'm as strong as a gutshot on the flop, no?accept if villan has AQ, not likely.peel is ok, imo

Honestly, I've been noticing a trend around here about making very loose flop peels. Maybe there is some math behind it, but we are only getting 5-1, on 5 outs... that doesn't add up to +ev. If you have a way of factoring implied odds, plus the change that YHIG, then convince me otherwise.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

can I make 9 SB profit calling here?I need 4.7 outs to call then.

[Zach6668 513]

can I make 9 SB profit calling here?I need 4.7 outs to call then.

Not heads up.

[Actuary 3]

Not heads up.

We already have 5SB,I just need 1 BB per streetIf I don't make that, with two pair, flush, trips, then it's because he folded and I was ahead already, no?edit to add: Plus, after losing QQ over and over and over again, garbage hands are so much less stressful to play. seriously. no, I'm serious.

[Zach6668 513]

I was thinking you needed 9 more after making the call. How do you come to that number?- Zach

[Actuary 3]

47 cards.Assume 5 outsso thats 8.4 : 1So, I rounded to 9 SB and If you rearrange the formula for Pot odds, to determine "Outs Required for a given Pot size", you'll end up with 47 / (9+1) = 4.7 outs.This ignores the bet I make on the turn with just a Flush draw, but at only 4.7 outs needed, the flush draw is mostly gravy.

[Pancake407 0]

How do you figure all these numbers out. I really want to learn the math end of this game at some point. Im like a caveman, UNGA BUNGA I call.

[Actuary 3]

I got a BS in MAth, I really can't teach you 4 yrs worth now.:)oh.. ok..just a little.which number in particular?Pot Odds?

[Pancake407 0]

I dont know, you all know how big the pot needs to be to make calling profitable, i dont know any of that. If i think im behind, I fold, im probably missing tons of value.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I see and understand the rationalization for flop peel/fold turn UI. I agree that the math says it's somewhat thin but still EV+. I just think it's a really weak way to play it.I think this is a flop fold if you're playing on autopilot. I think if you want to play with this guy, you're better off check/raising flop and leading turn than you are peeling flop and then check/folding or check/calling the turn.We're heads up, out of position, in a small pot, with an easily dominated hand (PF) that's made a sticky flopped 2nd pair. That just about sums up the reasons for folding, and I think folding is best.Button folded for MP's bet, and I see no reason to keep BB around. If he has any semi-coherent reason for calling, I think our 3-way flop equity is less than 33%. So if we think MP is just a moron, and we might be ahead, why not give him a chance to fold?And if we're behind, and drawing... for four small bets before the rake OOP.What's your flop AF these days? Insofar as stats mean anything, your flop AF is supposed to be higher than turn or river, comparitively.For what it's worth, I think autopilot check/calling OOP in small pots is a much greater leak than folding most small pots PERIOD, but occassionally becoming psycho-aggressive in some other small pots.