Bigd Mcgee: In Memorium

[BoBetter 0]

I'm definitely not calling with K2o here. Being suited makes an important difference: it gives us the chance to make a strong hand that other made hands will pay off. And we're getting good odds to flop a decent hand (top pair, pair and backdoor flush draw, four flush, or flush).

What am I missing? Is K3 soooted such a better hand? Your percentage o hitting a flush is like 6/7 percent right? But how many times are you going to miss, and or find yourself in a situation like this, where you may be dominated and find yourself lost, and spewing chips due to the difficult situation? If your king hits, it's very possible it's dominated. and is already behind any ace. Secondly, when your three hits.....well you have a pair of threes.Is it because you're getting 4 to 1 pre flop?Help me understand.

[Absolute 0]

Let's put the villain on a hand range. This won't be that hard to figure out if we can put him on a range.I'll go ahead and assert that an average villain would raise 15% of his hands in that spot, which is 77+,A7s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo. Of course we can modify this if people think he raises less (which is the dependant variable for check/raising. As his hand range increases, our equity lessens, so it becomes more correct to fold or call). I'll also assert that he will continu-bet with all of these holdings when checked to 100% of the time.This puts us at about 45.5% equity, but let's not forget our fold equity. Your average villain isn't going to stick around here with pocket 7s or the Ax hands that didn't connect, as well as some others. This boosts our equity when he folds the turn UI, or folds to the flop c/r.C/ring folds UTG as well a good percentage of the time. If we get this HU, I'm assuming we also have more than 50% equity (which I think is a safe assumption given given our pot equity + fold equity) making it correct to c/r.This is also NOT a hard hand to play on the turn or river, and we can make easy adjustments considering turn/river cards and our opponents reactions to those cards.As an aside, I'm 30/19/2.7, and this seemed like a glaringly easy flop c/r.

The average party villian's opening range shorthanded in middle position isn't this tight.Also, your equity calculations assume an UTG fold, and I am sure you have played Party 6max before, and I am sure you have also played with your equity calculator. Guess what happens when the UTG comes along for the ride? Guess what happens when the MP 3-bets? Guess what happens when UTG 3-bets? These situations destroy the SMALL equity we have in the situation we get heads up.In a raised multiway pot, we have to consider the reverse implied odds of playing bottom pair no draw. And so far, I am the only one who has.We can twist any situation that is a fold in to a call or raise if we modify the ranges to provide us equity on later streets granted a fold that hasnt come yet from a player we dont have a read on and against a player we have given an inappropriate range to.

[AlphaOmega 0]

What am I missing? Is K3 soooted such a better hand? Your percentage o hitting a flush is like 6/7 percent right? But how many times are you going to miss, and or find yourself in a situation like this, where you may be dominated and find yourself lost, and spewing chips due to the difficult situation? If your king hits, it's very possible it's dominated. and is already behind any ace. Secondly, when your three hits.....well you have a pair of threes.Is it because you're getting 4 to 1 pre flop?Help me understand.

Some people will fold this pre-flop, and that's ok. Not great, but ok. If you are a good post flop player, which is what everyone should strive to be, including these hands in your arsenal is important. You also don't want people stealing your blind often.Tim's point basically cover it, but I'll sum it up:-Yes, you only make a flush 6-7% of the time, but the time you do you usually get lots of mula when people make quality second best hands. With K2o, there will rarely be a quality hand to extract from that isn't beating you already. Being suited is VERY important when picking a hand to battle with.-Also, and I think screech posted this, our outs are likely more clean in a shorthanded game than they are in a full game because people will open isolate with a pretty broad range here. This means that we can often win with a K OR a 3 on the flop, on top of our flush capabilities.

[Absolute 0]

By the way the preflop call is pretty standard. Only from an MP I thought was a good player would I fold

[BoBetter 0]

Ok, thank you sir.I still don't know how the King is a "clean" out, but I'm going to take your word for it.

[Absolute 0]

Ok, thank you sir.I still don't know how the King is a "clean" out, but I'm going to take your word for it.

It's certainly not.You can give yourself 1.5 outs on the king. Maybe 2.

[AlphaOmega 0]

The average party villian's opening range shorthanded in middle position isn't this tight.Also, your equity calculations assume an UTG fold, and I am sure you have played Party 6max before, and I am sure you have also played with your equity calculator. Guess what happens when the UTG comes along for the ride? Guess what happens when the MP 3-bets? Guess what happens when UTG 3-bets? These situations destroy the SMALL equity we have in the situation we get heads up.In a raised multiway pot, we have to consider the reverse implied odds of playing bottom pair no draw. And so far, I am the only one who has.We can twist any situation that is a fold in to a call or raise if we modify the ranges to provide us equity on later streets granted a fold that hasnt come yet from a player we dont have a read on and against a player we have given an inappropriate range to.

I said I'd be open to suggestions as to whether the range is too loose. Obviously it makes it highly subjective because we probably all have different interpretations of what the average villain's opening standards are. It also depends on how often we think the average villain is aware of isolation, which will increase his opening standards even more if the limper is a live one.The fact is, though, that even if we shrink the opening range down even more from there, our fold equity after our flop c/r is pretty tremendous against a decent amount of an average villain's hand range.So yes, it's open to interpretation. With a 15% opening range, INEC. As we shrink it more, c/ring will obviously become less optimal, though not clearly a worse alternative til the opening range converges around 6-7%. Even then, it would still be pretty damn close.Edit: I think I caught you in the middle of an edit. UTG will not continue in this hand without a very decent hand, probably only ~5% of his hand range provided Tim doesn't have the best table selection known to man. RIOs aren't as bad as you are making them because this hand is easily played after the flop, and we have AK reverse dominated fairly often here. Other hands may have 6 outs against us, but again, we come back to fold equity and the Fundamental Theorum of Poker. This villain can't see our hole cards, so he won't be able to accurately discern how many outs he has, and may very well incorrectly discount some.

Ok, thank you sir.I still don't know how the King is a "clean" out, but I'm going to take your word for it.

Not entirely clean.Just more clean than in full ring.We're getting 4:1 here too. We don't need every out to be clean to call profitably.

[Absolute 0]

I said I'd be open to suggestions as to whether the range is too loose. Obviously it makes it highly subjective because we probably all have different interpretations of what the average villain's opening standards are. It also depends on how often we think the average villain is aware of isolation, which will increase his opening standards even more if the limper is a live one.The fact is, though, that even if we shrink the opening range down even more from there, our fold equity after our flop c/r is pretty tremendous against a decent amount of an average villain's hand range.So yes, it's open to interpretation. With a 15% opening range, INEC. As we shrink it more, c/ring will obviously become less optimal, though not clearly a worse alternative til the opening range converges around 6-7%.

Also I am assuming your equity calculations consider that bottom pair must be good once we get heads up? I don't think we can give 3 clean redraw outs to a king considering the reverse implied odds and how many bets we lose in the times we are dominated.My point in this thread is that no one plays as well as they think they do post-flop to get involved in marginal situations against opponents we don't have reads on.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I really don't get the advocation for CRing this flop at all. 1) this isn't a dry flop, this flop can have hit both of our opponents in several ways.2) we are doing this into two opponents being OOP and into the PFR along with an utg limper(which generally tells me that they like to call, which means that if they have something that they like they wil call regardless)its no2 that bothers me the most and doesn't take into account what the utg's range may be when calculating equity here, so that must be considered when doing something like that, and so far it hasn't been done. Also considering that the pot size is decent, it may get the villian to call down with a much better hand, thus negating any possible FE. We don't know what the villian's WtSD % is, which is a key stat here and we know nothing of the utg limper, so we can only say a *maybe* to getting the utg limper to fold, but we don't know their VPIP and what not. IMO, CRing this flop here is a losing play. If it was HU then I can see the rationale behind CRing the flop

[AlphaOmega 0]

I really don't get the advocation for CRing this flop at all. 1) this isn't a dry flop, this flop can have hit both of our opponents in several ways.2) we are doing this into two opponents being OOP and into the PFR along with an utg limper(which generally tells me that they like to call, which means that if they have something that they like they wil call regardless)its no2 that bothers me the most and doesn't take into account what the utg's range may be when calculating equity here, so that must be considered when doing something like that, and so far it hasn't been done. Also considering that the pot size is decent, it may get the villian to call down with a much better hand, thus negating any possible FE. We don't know what the villian's WtSD % is, which is a key stat here and we know nothing of the utg limper, so we can only say a *maybe* to getting the utg limper to fold, but we don't know their VPIP and what not. IMO, CRing this flop here is a losing play. If it was HU then I can see the rationale behind CRing the flop

This will be HU a great majority of the time. I think you are underestimating the fold equity that we have on UTG. Why assume that it works every other time we raise to protect our hand, but not here?

[Canada 0]

The weak-tight advice in this thread is really quite depressing.There is an extremely good chance that your hand is good here, and being marginal must be protected.The pot is worth continuing on for and given the number of times we are dominated here, we reverse dominate hands like AK,KJ,KT more often.As Alpha correctly pointed out, our fold equity is a big consideration as we will be put on a Q or flush draw, so quite often we will fold better hands, now or when another diamond hits. This is a huge bonus.The crucial point to this entire hand post flop is our position to the preflop raiser who has done nothing more than continuation bet

By the way the preflop call is pretty standard. Only from an MP I thought was a good player would I fold

This is so wrong and is a mentality that will keep you at small stake tables for a long time. If the MP was a good player, his range is a lot wider, especially given the UTG limp so folding preflop here getting over 5-1 is a huge mistake.

Also I am assuming your equity calculations consider that bottom pair must be good once we get heads up?

The equity calculations are done against the range of possible holidngs that MP has. It in no way assumes the bottom pair is good. This is very basic stuff.

Alpha Omega is always right, so I must be right .

Alpha, Screech and Tim are always right so I must be right too.

[KDawgCometh 2]

The weak-tight advice in this thread is really quite depressing.There is an extremely good chance that your hand is good here, and being marginal must be protected.The pot is worth continuing on for and given the number of times we are dominated here, we reverse dominate hands like AK,KJ,KT more often.As Alpha correctly pointed out, our fold equity is a big consideration as we will be put on a Q or flush draw, so quite often we will fold better hands, now or when another diamond hits. This is a huge bonus.The crucial point to this entire hand post flop is our position to the preflop raiser who has done nothing more than continuation bet

dude, I am the last person to give out weak tight advice, so even bother saying that is just retarded. THere are several problems that go with this board, 1) there is the obvious flush draw 2) there is a straight draw 3) both of the higher cards fit into many hands that both of our opponents have. So knowing that, how on earth is our hand looking good. We don't have reads on either player, so we don't know what the PFR will call down with or fold, and we don't know what utg will do, but since he limped PF, I think that its rather fair to assume that we are gonna have to show this hand down and put in two BBs being OOP. This is just common poker sense IMO, and putting in too much money OOP with very marginal holdings is a leak for many people. Sans reads, I don't want to continue with no redraws and on this drawy board against two players. People are over rating our true fold equity on this board and against two players

[greatwhite 0]

Fold preflop and check-raise the flop. If they call I would bet/fold the turn. I smell either overcards or a pocket pair. If they raise the flop I would check/fold the turn.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I still think folding and raising are not that far apart in terms of EV (with calling being the worst option).Say we check-raise. Suppose UTG folds on the flop 50% of the time, and calls or reraises the other 50% (without a read, I think that's close to right). Then half the time we invest 2-3 SB's and c/f the turn UI, and the other half he folds and we deal with MP.As somebody figured earlier, we should be ahead of MP around 50% of the time. So if MP just calls the flop bet, we bet again on the turn, and he "should" fold if we have the best hand. If he calls, then we have to decide how to handle the river.-So anyway, if we check-raise the pot, I think we can expect to win about 1/3 of the time (if UTG folds half the time and we're ahead of MP half the time, that's 25%, plus we will have some outs to improve).So if, we lose 4 SB's on average when we lose, and win 8 SB's on average when we win (that's what we get if MP calls the flop and fold the turn, I think that is likely to be about the average result), and we win 1/3 of the time, then raising and folding on the flop are equal in terms of EV.Obviously this is imprecise analysis, but I think it should be in the right ballpark. I honestly think you guys are debating a really close decision here, that should probably be based on metagame considerations (see my earlier post in this thread).

[AlphaOmega 0]

I agree that this is close, and that folding the flop wouldn't be a good definition of weak/tight.However, these close decisions are the best to discuss IMO. Even if we don't expect to win/lose much either way with folding or c/ring (though I still feel the latter is a better option), the discussion about these marginal situations - as well as what factors we need to consider to make these decisions - is extremely helpful and enlightening.

[BoBetter 0]

I'm really confused now.I've heard all sides of the argument, and one guy is still saying fold pre flop.....sigh.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I'm really confused now.I've heard all sides of the argument, and one guy is still saying fold pre flop.....sigh.

folding PF= bad, calling the flop=good, CRing teh flop= dumb spew IMO

[BoBetter 0]

Thanks KDawg..I could see how the Check raise could be used in the right situation against the right players.....Here's a question about pre flop play from the blinds. In this situation, where are you drawing the line as to what hands you're calling from the big blind? Would you call from the small blind with K3 suited?What if there's a raise UTG and no callers, do you call in the small blind with Ax suited? If the answer is no, do you call with a caller or two?I'm really confused on how to play from the blinds at this point.....I'm trying to be situational, but without reads I'm not sure what to difault to.

[mrdannyg 274]

folding PF= bad, calling the flop=good, CRing teh flop= dumb spew IMO

i really don't see how calling the flop is even an option. we really want to be out of position with a pair of threes with a good chance of two opponents?also - i saw you were at 9999 posts for awhile. just curious what you did with 10000. and also why i did not hear anything back about my jazz question.

[KDawgCometh 2]

i really don't see how calling the flop is even an option. we really want to be out of position with a pair of threes with a good chance of two opponents?also - i saw you were at 9999 posts for awhile. just curious what you did with 10000. and also why i did not hear anything back about my jazz question.

as far as calling teh flop, we have the proper odds on that to peel. I want my hand to be stronger and I want to see what the action is gonna be from the other players to make a full decision on how my hand is. Folding isn't a bad option eitheras far as teh jazz, I'm working on a list, and I've been drinking a lot recently along with doing a lot of playing, so I haven't had much time to get to stuff

[greatwhite 0]

Kdawg, what's wrong with folding this hand preflop? Domination could be a serious problem here. Give the guy credit, since he raised in MP and you don't know what UTG will do either. Check-raising is not a bad play on the flop. First of all it adds deception to your game. Secondly, it helps isolate MP. Thirdly, it allows you to take the lead in the hand. Finally, calling gives you no information.

[mrdannyg 274]

as far as calling teh flop, we have the proper odds on that to peel. I want my hand to be stronger and I want to see what the action is gonna be from the other players to make a full decision on how my hand is. Folding isn't a bad option eitheras far as teh jazz, I'm working on a list, and I've been drinking a lot recently along with doing a lot of playing, so I haven't had much time to get to stuff

didn't notice the odds were there, although its right on.if you call the flop, what's your turn play?i thought you were ignoring me on the jazz stuff - drinking and playing are far more pertinent than responding to me.

[Canada 0]

I agree. We have some reverse implied odds going on here with the flush draw and having the Queen out. If that queen was more like a 10 or a 9 then I can see a reason for CRing a lot more then right here. folding>calling>>>>>>>>>raising. also, I call this PF, I think not calling it makes you miss out on some profitable situations

Sans reads, I don't want to continue with no redraws and on this drawy board against two players. People are over rating our true fold equity on this board and against two players

folding PF= bad, calling the flop=good, CRing teh flop= dumb spew IMO

as far as calling teh flop, we have the proper odds on that to peel. I want my hand to be stronger and I want to see what the action is gonna be from the other players to make a full decision on how my hand is. Folding isn't a bad option either

If your going to give advice at lease be consistent Is it call or fold?