Bigd Mcgee: In Memorium

[econ_tim 0]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with 3 , K . UTG calls, MP raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.Flop: (6.33 SB) Q , 3 , 8 (3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.Turn: (4.16 BB) Q (2 players)Hero checks, MP checks.River: (4.16 BB) 2 (2 players)Hero . . .ok, not a true krablar but it is closebtw is the answer c/r the flop ainec?

[screech 0]

btw is the answer c/r the flop ainec?

Yes.And bet the river.

[Absolute 0]

Why should we check/raise the flop with bottom pair no draw OOP?

[pokerplayer24 0]

Why should we check/raise the flop with bottom pair no draw OOP?

Folds UTGGives us information.

[mrdannyg 274]

Why should we check/raise the flop with bottom pair no draw OOP?

because we might be ahead! screw position, implied odds, and playability!ok, i actually just bitched out a friend because he always CR's flops like that unconditionally. given the texture of the board here, i think it's ok, but i'd still prefer a read on the raiser, so we know how to interpret future actions. then again, i don't like to take a piss without a good read.

[Absolute 0]

Can't believe I am the only one who thinks folding is 10x better than raising.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Can't believe I am the only one who thinks folding is 10x better than raising.

I agree folding the flop is best. A check-raise would have to buy us the pot right away close to 1/3 of the time to be correct, and I doubt it would. Fold > raise > call, IMO.I'd actually fold this preflop; is that too tight? Seems to me that my K could easily be no good, and with only two opponents, I can't expect to make money when I flop a flush draw.

[screech 0]

Folds UTGGives us information.

Exactly.Plus there's only 1 card in the playing zone. If MP has overs (which he probably does based on card frequency), then he probably whiffed. So we are likely to be best right now.UTG may have a hand like JT, in which case he would have 10 outs against us. IF we raise, he may think he only has 4 and fold incorrectly. That's good for us. Also, if we just call, there's a chance UTG may check behind the turn. That's a huge mistake on our part.Basically, the chance we have the best hand on this board is way too high on the flop to give up. So we should continue with the hand. And it's clear that if we continue, we should raise for the reasons stated above.

I agree folding the flop is best. A check-raise would have to buy us the pot right away close to 1/3 of the time to be correct, and I doubt it would. Fold > raise > call, IMO.I'd actually fold this preflop; is that too tight? Seems to me that my K could easily be no good, and with only two opponents, I can't expect to make money when I flop a flush draw.

Yeah, it's a bit too tight. In a SH pot, the chance that your dominated isn't that much of a concern. Also, it's not that unlikely for you to pair you 3 and make the best hand.....

[BoBetter 0]

Yeah, I was thinking fold pre flop too.....Against a raise, any king hand AK, KQ, KJ, K10, all raising hands. You're paying off your oppoment big time....or not.Help me with this. I'm raising with K3 on the button, if everyone folds to me, and calling with it in the small blind. Other than that, I'm not playing this handScreech,Why do you advocate folding the flop in that 77 hand, in position with a board of JJ8, but advocate a chek raise with the measly five in this hand?

[Canada 0]

btw is the answer c/r the flop ainec?

You been drinking Tim? You know the c/r is standard here

[Pancake407 0]

Without reading replies:I fold PF.The other option is to reraise, because everybody knows that you have to raise with Krablar to win with it. I don't mind the flop call. When the turn pairs queens, I might be tempted to donkbet/fold. River, Check/call is good.Read replies:I still think its an easy fold PF.Im sold on c/r flop. I checked my PT stats, My AF is higher on the turn then on the flop. I guess I need to be a little more aggressive on the flop ay?

[Absolute 0]

OK.I ran this by a few very good and reliable 2+2 posters.I think it is agreed that at a typical loose aggressive party game, a c/r is pretty bad. Here is why.I was reading a Cardplayer article recently where the autho advocated dumping AK on flops like Q74 because a Q is the worst cared in the deck if you have an A or a K. My point is, we have no redraws when we are behind. No backdoor straight or flush draw, and often times when we are drawing to improve to two pair we are going to be in a dominated situation and lose a lot of bets.I am an aggressive SH player. Probably more aggressive than most players here. I show a line of 28/14/3.3 over thousands of hands in party 6max games. But I think I have made money avoiding check/raising bottom pair no draw in a raised multi-way pot.Backdoor draws would make a huge difference here.

Without reading replies:I fold PF.The other option is to reraise, because everybody knows that you have to raise with Krablar to win with it. I don't mind the flop call. When the turn pairs queens, I might be tempted to donkbet/fold. River, Check/call is good.Read replies:I still think its an easy fold PF.Im sold on c/r flop. I checked my PT stats, My AF is higher on the turn then on the flop. I guess I need to be a little more aggressive on the flop ay?

Not really. You want your turn AF to be high.

[mrdannyg 274]

well i don't think i can say anything Absolute has not already considered, but I think our big mistake is not CR'ing the flop, but CR'ing the flop and checking the turn, which is the scariest card the villain could see.we bet that turn and take the pot most of the time, even without the best hand, and there's no reason for us to think the turn hurt us.I C/R this flop against a loose preflop raiser with only one face card and no high straight draws, to isolate against someone who has probably whiffed with overs, or is looking at 1-2 overcards to his pair.if he 3-bets, i call and check/fold (well, maybe i bluff that exact turn, but i don't know what's coming). if he doesn't, i bet the turn and likely take it down there.im surprised 2+2'ers and others are not advocating isolating in a decently large part, while we likely have the best hand, but i guess the lack of redraws could relate a -ev play, though in my experience it has a relatively high playability (even OOP) against non-maniacs, and we take down the pot often, while losing an extra 2-3 bets maximum.

[Canada 0]

OK.I ran this by a few very good and reliable 2+2 posters.

Link?Did you mention we were on the relative left of a continuation bet and that the third player in the hand would be faced with 2 cold when we raised?Or that we would have 40-50% equity in the hand against a normal range if we could get it heads up?

[AlphaOmega 0]

Why do you advocate folding the flop in that 77 hand, in position with a board of JJ8, but advocate a chek raise with the measly five in this hand?

The opposition's hand range is much larger in this hand.Also, in the other hand, the action went bet/call on a not so favorable flop for us. Even if we had UTG's continuation bet beat, we have to wonder if we are ahead of the player who called the flop. The importance of position in that hand is that we have the perspective to know when we are beat. A c/r here is soooo standard because of the reasons others have alluded to, including folding UTG (him folding incorrectly is good for us according to the Fundamental Theorum of Poker, say if he has a mid pair or a draw with 9+ outs.), and the fact that we are fairly likely to be ahead of MP as a result of his fairly large hand range.The few times that we aren't ahead of MP, we set up pretty decent fold equity on later streets as well.

[Absolute 0]

Another big reason a c/r is bad here is because of the bets you are GOING to waste on further streets when you get 3-bet or get called.People assume they can play so well post-flop that they won't ever spew chips. Anyone C/Ring this flop will spew on later streets also.

[screech 0]

OK.I ran this by a few very good and reliable 2+2 posters.I guess that ends the arguement then...I was reading a Cardplayer article recently where the autho advocated dumping AK on flops like Q74 because a Q is the worst cared in the deck if you have an A or a K. Completely different situation. Cardplayer articles tend to be geared towards full games, where you can expect your opposition to hold something like KQ/AQ in this situation. This is party 3/6 sh. Our hand is a tiny bit stronger here, and we may have somehting like AK reverse dominated. Not only that, playing this hand aggressively may convince a pp < 8 to fold.My point is, we have no redraws when we are behind. No backdoor straight or flush draw, and often times when we are drawing to improve to two pair we are going to be in a dominated situation and lose a lot of bets.Valid point. But we are ahead here enough to continue in this hand. I've had tremendous success by playing bottom pair aggressively in situations when the board calls for it. Since the pfr will have unpaired overcards here around 50% of the time, we have an extremely good chance of being out in front. And it is not that often that we are going to be in a dominated position. It only happens when villian has 88/QQ/KQ. This is a rare minority. I am an aggressive SH player. Probably more aggressive than most players here. I show a line of 28/14/3.3 over thousands of hands in party 6max games. But I think I have made money avoiding check/raising bottom pair no draw in a raised multi-way pot.I'm much more passive then you. 27/19/2. But I think I have made money by recognizing when I have a small edge and being able to turn on the aggression in a 1+HU raised pot that has likely missed the pf raiser.Another big reason a c/r is bad here is because of the bets you are GOING to waste on further streets when you get 3-bet or get called.Another big reason why a c/r is good here is because you may extract bets from your opponents on future streets when he gets stubborn and calls down with Ace high because of the flush draw. Also, since our hand has no back up, it is very easy to release it when we get raised. People assume they can play so well post-flop that they won't ever spew chips. Anyone C/Ring this flop will spew on later streets also.LOL. I guess so. This hand becomes so difficult to play if we get played back at. ****. What to do. 3-bet the turn? Lucky for me, I am the greatest postflop player on Earth, and I can use my superior skills to recognize that if I get raised somewhere, a pair of 3's is probably no good.Screech,Why do you advocate folding the flop in that 77 hand, in position with a board of JJ8, but advocate a chek raise with the measly five in this hand?In the 77 hand, the pfr leads out and gets called. 77 is probably no good, and if it is, it has to dodge so much ****.In this hand, the only info we have is that the pfr bet out. He would do this with just about any 2 he raised pf. On card frequency alone, we are ahead of the pfr about 50% of the time. Since the other player checked the flop, it is likely he whiffed as well. Even if he never, he may fold something like middle pair or 77 to a c/r. Getting HU with close to 50% equity in this pot is a good thing. It's worth investing 2sb's in a 7sb pot.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Screech and absolute,I think you both make good points, and that raising and folding are probably pretty close in tems of immediate EV for this hand.Thinking about how we might play the hand after raising the flop depending on our opponents' actions and the turn card, I think on average we're committing to risk about 4 SB's in order to win about 8 SB's, so we'd be getting 2-1 to continue. I think that roughly corresponds to our chances of winning either on the flop or turn or at showdown. Without reads, I think it'd take an awful lot of math to try to determine which action is better on average.The tiebreaker might be metagame, and for this I could see a raise benefitting screech's table image, since in general his aggression will represent stronger hands, and if he ends up showing this down he might get paid off better in the future when he has stronger holdings.Whereas since Absolute is more aggressive, he might prefer to fold in this marginal spot, since he's generally making bets with more marginal hands, and as such will more often be hoping opponents will fold. If he winds up showing down this hand, it might run counterproductive to that purpose.Does that make sense, or am I babbling?

[mrdannyg 274]

Screech and absolute,I think you both make good points, and that raising and folding are probably pretty close in tems of immediate EV for this hand.Thinking about how we might play the hand after raising the flop depending on our opponents' actions and the turn card, I think on average we're committing to risk about 4 SB's in order to win about 8 SB's, so we'd be getting 2-1 to continue. I think that roughly corresponds to our chances of winning either on the flop or turn or at showdown. Without reads, I think it'd take an awful lot of math to try to determine which action is better on average.The tiebreaker might be metagame, and for this I could see a raise benefitting screech's table image, since in general his aggression will represent stronger hands, and if he ends up showing this down he might get paid off better in the future when he has stronger holdings.Whereas since Absolute is more aggressive, he might prefer to fold in this marginal spot, since he's generally making bets with more marginal hands, and as such will more often be hoping opponents will fold. If he winds up showing down this hand, it might run counterproductive to that purpose.Does that make sense, or am I babbling?

I think this might be one of my favourite strat posts of all time.

[Absolute 0]

Getting HU with close to 50% equity in this pot is a good thing. It's worth investing 2sb's in a 7sb pot. If only it were that easy.There is no way you will invest anything less than 2BB in this pot after the flop if you c/r it.

[KDawgCometh 2]

Can't believe I am the only one who thinks folding is 10x better than raising.

I agree. We have some reverse implied odds going on here with the flush draw and having the Queen out. If that queen was more like a 10 or a 9 then I can see a reason for CRing a lot more then right here. folding>calling>>>>>>>>>raising. also, I call this PF, I think not calling it makes you miss out on some profitable situations Tim, as u played it, I'd bet the river, the villian isn't gonna bluff that board

[AlphaOmega 0]

Let's put the villain on a hand range. This won't be that hard to figure out if we can put him on a range.I'll go ahead and assert that an average villain would raise 15% of his hands in that spot, which is 77+,A7s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo. Of course we can modify this if people think he raises less (which is the dependant variable for check/raising. As his hand range increases, our equity lessens, so it becomes more correct to fold or call). I'll also assert that he will continu-bet with all of these holdings when checked to 100% of the time.This puts us at about 45.5% equity, but let's not forget our fold equity. Your average villain isn't going to stick around here with pocket 7s or the Ax hands that didn't connect, as well as some others. This boosts our equity when he folds the turn UI, or folds to the flop c/r.C/ring folds UTG as well a good percentage of the time. If we get this HU, I'm assuming we also have more than 50% equity (which I think is a safe assumption given given our pot equity + fold equity) making it correct to c/r.This is also NOT a hard hand to play on the turn or river, and we can make easy adjustments considering turn/river cards and our opponents reactions to those cards.As an aside, I'm 30/19/2.7, and this seemed like a glaringly easy flop c/r.

[BoBetter 0]

Screech, thanks for the explanation of the 77 hand. That makes sense.I think I'm more inclined to check raise now, knowing all that I do. Plus I'm fairly aggressive pre flop, but not as much on later streets. When I do check raise people tend to think I have a big hand. DannyG's post on table image is huge. I think many of these close decisions in SH limit should be based on that kind of thought process.Two questions:What kind of flop is conducive to a bottom pair check raise to a pre flop raiser? Any rainbow flop with one high card? A coordinated board with no high cards? Elaborate please.Secondly, are we calling with K2 off suit in this spot? I don't see much of a difference between those two hands, since the flush is such a low possibility. I find it hard to believe that calling these hands pre flop is a good play over the long haul. Personally if I want to play this hand, I'm three betting pre flop.

[econ_tim 0]

Secondly, are we calling with K2 off suit in this spot? I don't see much of a difference between those two hands, since the flush is such a low possibility. I find it hard to believe that calling these hands pre flop is a good play over the long haul. Personally if I want to play this hand, I'm three betting pre flop.

I'm definitely not calling with K2o here. Being suited makes an important difference: it gives us the chance to make a strong hand that other made hands will pay off. And we're getting good odds to flop a decent hand (top pair, pair and backdoor flush draw, four flush, or flush).

[screech 0]

Getting HU with close to 50% equity in this pot is a good thing. It's worth investing 2sb's in a 7sb pot. If only it were that easy.There is no way you will invest anything less than 2BB in this pot after the flop if you c/r it.

If he 3-bets, I invest 1.5BB.But it's not as futile as you make it out to be. You make it seem like that 2BB investment is lost. But since we will frequently have the best hand, we may get villian to call down with AK, in which case he invests 2-3BB.This puts us at about 45.5% equity, but let's not forget our fold equity. Your average villain isn't going to stick around here with pocket 7s or the Ax hands that didn't connect, as well as some others. This boosts our equity when he folds the turn UI, or folds to the flop c/r.Alpha Omega is always right, so I must be right .