Katie Brought My Guitar Back (20/40 Lhe)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bodog 20/40 LHE (6-handed)Cobalt is CO w/ K T . MP has been running over the table. He's been playing super-LAG (raising every other hand) and getting decently lucky. He hasn't been getting challenged much.Pre-flop:1 fold, MP raises, Cobalt 3-bets, 3 folds, MP callsFlop (7.5 SB): K 9 T (2 players)MP checks, Cobalt bets, MP raises, Cobalt callsTurn (6 BB): 3 (2 players)MP bets, Cobalt raises, MP callsRiver (10 BB): 3 (2 players)MP checks, Cobalt bets, MP callsFinal Pot: 12 BB

[screech 0]

I guess the only real question is whether to 3-bet the flop and hope he goes 4, or whether to wait for the turn. It all depends on how laggy he is postflop, but your way is the default way I play it.

[Verdimme 0]

Seems standard.

[Pancake407 0]

Why not 3-bet the flop?

[Sysvr4 0]

Only if he routinely caps the flop with very little would I 3-bet this flop. I like very much more waiting for the turn if he doesn't since you have position.Oh, and way to practice good seat selection :)Jeff

[Absolute 0]

Honestly I am having trouble with the pre-flop play. Maybe no one else has been reading SSHE or HEFAP, but this isn't really "standard" play against a LAG.I put this in PokerStove and gave the villian an extremely generous opening range (probably a bigger range than he actually had) and our equity was 43%.I think often times we see LAG pre-flop plays like three-betting with KT and think it must be standard because its in a bigger game than most of us are used to. I think Cobalt is a good player, and I think he knows this is pretty laggy pre-flop play, even at those bigger levels where you have to mix it up a LOT more.That being said and given your read I am three-betting the flop. If he is a complete maniac, you don't need to get cute with him, just keep betting.

[screech 0]

Honestly I am having trouble with the pre-flop play. Maybe no one else has been reading SSHE or HEFAP, but this isn't really "standard" play against a LAG.I put this in PokerStove and gave the villian an extremely generous opening range (probably a bigger range than he actually had) and our equity was 43%.I think often times we see LAG pre-flop plays like three-betting with KT and think it must be standard because its in a bigger game than most of us are used to. I think Cobalt is a good player, and I think he knows this is pretty laggy pre-flop play, even at those bigger levels where you have to mix it up a LOT more.That being said and given your read I am three-betting the flop. If he is a complete maniac, you don't need to get cute with him, just keep betting.

Hey Absolute,I decided to download pokerstove, but I can't figure out how to get it to work. Do you use the monte carlo simulation? Do I have to enter anything in the board, or deal cards box?Anyway, I suspect that your range is too small. This guy is raising close to 50% of his hands. That means his range probably looks like:AA-22AK-A2KQs-K4sKQo-K7oQJs-Q7sQJo-Q8oJTs-J7sJTo-J7oT9s-T7sT9o-T8o98-9787s-86s87o76o76s-65sAgainst this range, I would think we have an equity edge.But again, hot and cold simulations don't tell the whole story. This guy is a maniac, so he will pay you off nicely when you hit. Position gives us more of an edge.SSHE doesn't have a section on how to deal with maniacs. It outlines basic pf strategies that should be used as guidelines. 3-betting is profitable here, and it should be done. Isolating bad players is a part of any good players game at any limit. You should be 3-betting KTo agianst this player at 1/2 or 1000/2000.

[screech 0]

Hey Absolute,I decided to download pokerstove, but I can't figure out how to get it to work. Do you use the monte carlo simulation? Do I have to enter anything in the board, or deal cards box?

Alright, I figured it out.I just stoved KTo against a someone who raises 45% of his hands pf. Turns out we have an equity advantage of 51/49.Couple this with postion, and the fact that the maniac will spew, and we have a profitable 3-bet.

[Absolute 0]

Isolating bad players is a part of any good players game at any limit.

Of course it is. Just not with bad hands.I ran this thru stove again, and I don't know what you are doing, but I loosened up his range even more than I had before and we aren't close to being 50% yet.

[Absolute 0]

I talked with wrto a bit about this hand. He agrees that this is a leak (and he plays this level). You are three-betting a hand that has zero showdown value against a player who is NOT going to slow down on any flop.You will be put to tough decisions on the flop when you do this. Everyone's ego wants to tell them that we can play so good post-flop that we will have value in situations like these.Even with a small equity edge and position (if there is one), its extremely doubtful that we are going to make enough right decisions to make this a profitable play.Chris(wrto)'s comments were"K high has no showdown value""AT would be a way better 3-bet because its actually ahead of A2"I agree with those sentiments.We just don't hit enough flops, get dominated too often when we get action, and don't make enough calldowns to justify making this play against a maniac.

[screech 0]

Of course it is. Just not with bad hands.I ran this thru stove again, and I don't know what you are doing, but I loosened up his range even more than I had before and we aren't close to being 50% yet.

I ran the monte carlo sim. I went to the pf part, and put it on 45% of the hands.

I talked with wrto a bit about this hand. He agrees that this is a leak (and he plays this level). You are three-betting a hand that has zero showdown value against a player who is NOT going to slow down on any flop.You will be put to tough decisions on the flop when you do this. Everyone's ego wants to tell them that we can play so good post-flop that we will have value in situations like these.Even with a small equity edge and position (if there is one), its extremely doubtful that we are going to make enough right decisions to make this a profitable play.Chris(wrto)'s comments were"K high has no showdown value""AT would be a way better 3-bet because its actually ahead of A2"I agree with those sentiments.We just don't hit enough flops, get dominated too often when we get action, and don't make enough calldowns to justify making this play against a maniac.

Again, it makes no difference what the limit is. The only difference is that LAGs tend to play better postflop at higher limits, but this guy is a full blown maniac. He's bad.I don't agree with chris' comments. For 1, KT does have showdown value. You bet the flop, get called, bet the turn, get called, and check behind the river. You will beat a fair number of hands in this case.Secondly, if he doesnt slow down postflop, that's great for us. We can play fit or fold on the flop (peeling if we have odds), and get huge action from this clown when we hit. Having position on a guy who spews is great. If we fold because we miss and he keeps pushing, that's fine too. We've sent him the message that he can push us around, so he'll be more inclined to spew at us in the future.And it's not an ego thing either. Anyone who plays decently postflop is bound to make money against these players in position with roughly 50/50 equity. BTW, KTo is as low as I'd go. I wouldn't 3-bet it if other people at the table had adjusted and where now calling/capping light.

[Absolute 0]

I ran the monte carlo sim. I went to the pf part, and put it on 45% of the hands.Again, it makes no difference what the limit is. The only difference is that LAGs tend to play better postflop at higher limits, but this guy is a full blown maniac. He's bad.I don't agree with chris' comments. For 1, KT does have showdown value. You bet the flop, get called, bet the turn, get called, and check behind the river. You will beat a fair number of hands in this case.Secondly, if he doesnt slow down postflop, that's great for us. We can play fit or fold on the flop (peeling if we have odds), and get huge action from this clown when we hit. Having position on a guy who spews is great. If we fold because we miss and he keeps pushing, that's fine too. We've sent him the message that he can push us around, so he'll be more inclined to spew at us in the future.And it's not an ego thing either. Anyone who plays decently postflop is bound to make money against these players in position with roughly 50/50 equity. BTW, KTo is as low as I'd go. I wouldn't 3-bet it if other people at the table had adjusted and where now calling/capping light.

I think there is a misconception about how easy it is to play a maniac post-flop. Maniacs generally play better post-flop than other players at a shorthanded table.I just don't understand why we would put ourselves in a situation where our hand barely has any equity at all against a maniac who is going to put us on tough decisions unless we hit the board.The reason loose aggressive players run over tables is because people get sick of it and three-bet them with KTo.If I knew that my playing too many hands would cause this, I'd play like a "maniac" too.EDIT: I realize the precariousness of this topic. Obviously if the hero had KJo or K9o there would be no argument or discussion. It's obviously close. I am simply of the belief that good players avoid situations against maniacs where they will have to play almost perfectly in order for the play to be valuable. It's just too hard to read a maniac.

[screech 0]

EDIT: I realize the precariousness of this topic. Obviously if the hero had KJo or K9o there would be no argument or discussion. It's obviously close. I am simply of the belief that good players avoid situations against maniacs where they will have to play almost perfectly in order for the play to be valuable. It's just too hard to read a maniac.

Close decisions always make for good discussion.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Fold preflop. Isolating vs maniacs good. Isolating vs one when we have a hand that has no showdown value and is easily dominated....not so good.Also I 3-bet the flop. If a Q or J hits that sure kills your action when he leads into you on the turn.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Honestly I am having trouble with the pre-flop play. Maybe no one else has been reading SSHE or HEFAP, but this isn't really "standard" play against a LAG.I put this in PokerStove and gave the villian an extremely generous opening range (probably a bigger range than he actually had) and our equity was 43%.I think often times we see LAG pre-flop plays like three-betting with KT and think it must be standard because its in a bigger game than most of us are used to. I think Cobalt is a good player, and I think he knows this is pretty laggy pre-flop play, even at those bigger levels where you have to mix it up a LOT more.

Yeah, I understand that the pre-flop play was somewhat questionable. That was actually my main reason for posting this.That said, I think I need to modify my "read" on the villain. When I said that no one's challenging him, what I meant was that he's either taking down most pots pre-flop or on the flop with a continuation bet. Basically, he's not showing down much. Therefore, I was of the belief that he would in fact slow down and fold if he missed the flop...particularly against someone who hadn't shown much aggression yet.As for actual equity, I do think that I'm around 50% against his range pre-flop.I will add this hand in for fun. I didn't notice it at the time, but when I went back through the hand histories, I thought it was interesting. He played K2o to multiple raises pre-flop from the blinds and called multiple raises on the flop with bottom pair to spike another 2 on the turn. He sucked out on KK and JJ, I believe. That said, he wasn't playing aggressively there, but it definitely played into my thoughts of him as loose.