ppc's (poker playing christians)

[scottrude 0]

BOTTOM LINE!A good god fearing Christian would not check raise. EVER! lolIt is obviously the work of the devil. Also, if god enjoyed poker he would not have my aces cracked twenty times this month. He is sending me a clear message. "DONT PLAY THE POKER!"

[DCWildcat 0]

Time for a philosophical argument. I want to address the quote that Nik gave us since no one seems to have responded, and to thank him for posting it.It's difficult to understand the KJV; a more readable and more accurate version of Romans 14:18-23 is at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index....8-23&version=31I assume the two points you are trying to make from this are1) The "it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble" bit--i.e., if someone undertakes an action that causes someone else to "stumble, it is a sin. 2) That "everything that does not come from faith is a sin."In response to 1, this has cannot be applied if taken literally, as you have taken it. Verbatim, it means that competition is inherently sinful, because it causes others to "stumble." Think of of the ramifications of that. No sports. No grades. No capitalism. The concept of "merit" is destroyed. Since we cannot take the passage literally, we must interpret it by some measure of degree. The pertinent question becomes: what, exactly, constitutes someone "stumbling?" I believe "stumbling" implies some sort of hardship (endured by the victim), inflicted by another (or others) which was undeserved. Because the victim voluntarily sat down, they are acting out of free will, and any losses they incur are deserved. Since they are deserved, there is no "causing another to stumble" by playing poker. Realize the consequences of this argument. If someone is forced[/] to play (say they need the money to feed their family), they are acting involuntarily. By removing the element of free will, it becomes sinful to cause them to stumble. Note that this also covers the case of addiction--which necessitates a lack of free will. A Christian should not, therefore, take an addicts money. Duh.I can't address the second one, because that would take much longer than this admittedly long but relatively miniscule post. And I have to think about that.

[GamblinLeaf 0]

3) People are justifying poker with all these stock-market analogies, etc.... you know what? I'm pretty sure Jesus was a socialist. In fact, I'm sure he is, because I spent about half a semester debating whether or not I wanted to write my thesis on it. I decided it had been done to death, so I didn't, but I don't think God (or Jesus) really likes ANY egregious pursuit of wealth. He definitely hates opulence, that's for sure. And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be a big fan of Wall Street. I've got more, but my hands hurt.Ice

Jesus wasn't a socialist, He is a monarchist . . . i.e. King of Kings. He even referred to Himself as such, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting ... " John 18:36 As King, what He says goes, for the christian (at least it should). If He didn't say it, it's just someone else's opinion (which they're entitled to).As for "He definitely hates opulence" ... ummm ... some of the great characters of the Bible were insanely rich, even by today's standards. Abraham was wealthy. King David. King Solomon was one of the wealthiest men of the ancient world. And oh yeah, there's this: "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: 'I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to PROFIT, who leads you by the way you should go.'"I'm sorry your hands hurt and, by the way, I enjoy your posts on various threads, I trust you won't take my comments on this discussion as anything other than hearty discourse.

[gadjet 11]

I happen to agree that God likely wouldn't judge poker as a virtuous activity, for the following reasons.1) Greed- The sole aim of a good poker player is to make money. ...2) Your time could be better spent. God does not smile on the lazy man, who fills his days with an empty activity. As much as I love poker, it's absolutely worthless in terms of any possible social ends. Just because you give 10% of your winnings to charity doesn't really change that.3) Poker is a zero-sum game. To be successful, SOMEONE ELSE MUST BE UNSUCCESSFUL. This is a problem, tantamount to rooting for the failure of others. This is not nice. This is not nice at all4) The people you assosciate with. Yes, Jesus did assosciate with some relatively shady characters, but this is mitigated by the followinga) he is the son of GodB) he was spreading peace and love on EarthPersonally, I'm not not religious at all, but if there is a God, he's probably "tsk tsk"ing you for being a poker player.

Your last quote says it all. "I'm not not religious at all". I sak that you refrain from making comments about the Christian religion. I get enough problems from people who do actively go to church. :wink: actually, no joke. But, let me make some brief answers. I disagree with you entirely on many levels.1) "Greed". You have effectively eliminated every captialist job out there.2) "Your time could be better spent". Again this can be levied against almost every job or hobby out there. 3) "Poker is a zero sum game". No, it is a huge industry which generates revenues, pays taxes and stimulates the economy (money cycle). Poker rooms and those jobs exist for a reason. Many people play for other value besides money.4) "The people you associate with". For this reason precisely, should Christians be involved with it (as long as they can handle it).Again, I'm just waiting to make my comments against anti-poker Christians who find nothing better to do than to post on this site.

Holy crap Elkang... you are a self-righteous Ba$tard... Iceman has more meaningful input about Christianity than most of the Christians I've seen. Your arguments and defence of poker is ridiculous. this thread is not about waiting for the anti-poker Christians, well as a strong believer here's my answers to your resoinses.1.) Don't make me tap the part where Jesus turns over the money changing tables in the temple…2.) Iceman already said just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right… well that applies here. The Bible consistantly speaks of offering your time in the same way that you offer money and your gifts to God, sitting at a poker table may/or may not be a valid use of free time. 3.) Absolutely ridiculous distortion of Iceman's point. Your by your argument the porn industry is ok in God's eyes because it employs so many people…4.) If you are telling me you feel called specifically to witness to the poker players of the world… I can't really argue with that because God could do anything… however I would be highly skeptical…And finally, this has been one of the most interesting and well-behaved threads that I've read thus far. Thank you everyone…

[ggriffin 0]

Personally i consider myself as a person who has a deep faith and commitment to the Lord. yes i struggle and stumble but every Christian does. i think, personally, its all about where your heart is.yes i do get mad sometimes and act how i shouldn't. which means one of two things: quit playing or play more responsibly.so i do think that poker can cause us to sin. but with your heart in the right place and prayer to God that you don't be overcome by evil things that are associated with poker you should be all right.I am church of christ by denomination, very conservative, so if my parents can live with it it can't be half bad. haha. jk

[JFarrell20 1]

I'm a Christian and I don't see a problem with it. If gambling is not allowed in Christianity then I need to get rid of my mutual fund, and 401(k) as well. I think the intent is that gambling can ruin a family. Like you said, as long as you can control your bankroll, it shouldn't be a problem. Overall, gambling is bad because it will produce degenerates who will blow their kids diaper money on a hand, or whatever, but on an individual level, I think it is your choice as to whether or not you can control it.

[JackTheCat 0]

Wow, all I can say is "God is Good"I want you all to know that this was my first new topic post and in fact I have only recently started reading and posting in forums of anykind.What a great variety of opinions here on my favourite subjects, Jesus Christ and poker (in that order).How nice to hear someone say Jesus Christ at the poker table without meaning it in a derogatory way.Based on the number of posts on here, it is obvious that people are truly interested in learning about what real Christianity is, and, to the one who wanted to know what was meant when we say Christian it is that Jesus is the one and only way to God and salvation which comes through His blood shed for us on the cross, in order that our sins may be forgiven. Salvation is a gift, it can not be bought or won at the table,, it can only be accepted, you can't earn it and not one of us deserves it, but God is God and this is how he chose to save us. When it comes to Jesus, it is better to humbly accept His gift than to be stubbornly prideful and reject it. This is also a very good trait to have at the poker table; true humility will let you know when to fold what started out as a premium hand, and give you the grace and composure to wait till the next opportunity (without feeling the need to berate the people you really want in your game anyway). How many times has a bit too much pride at the tables cost us a lot of chips in the end?Thanks again for all the input.JackTheCat"IT'S ALL GOOD!"

[troutsmart 0]

This is one of those topics I've usually avoided posting commentary on in the past, though I always am interested in the various opinions expressed by the poker community.I am a Christian who attends church on Sundays. My faith plays an enormous role in my life. That faith has shaped my life dramatically. I am human. I sin, and far more often than I should. It is for this reason that my faith in Christ is so vital to me.The religion to which I belong is well known for its conservative lifestyle. I am LDS or a Mormon as we are often called. We are taught to live lives free of addiction. Though many Mormons do by their own choice, we are taught not to drink alcohol, use tobacco, drink hot drinks (coffee), use harmful drugs, and gamble. I love poker. I was drawn to the game like the moth to the flame. It was the mathmatical portion of the game that first peaked my interest. However, I was soon enthrawled by the psychology, strategy, competion, along with the odds. Intially the money was a side thought, but over time I cannot deny that the money involved has taken a larger role in my love of the game. When I first started playing poker, I did so in private, my own personal affair that I didn't want those close to me to know of. Then I recieved a phone call one evening by a friend telling me that a group of my friends were on their way to my apartment. I asked, "what are we going to do?" He replied, "We're going to play poker." That night, I watched as several of my close friends played poker for the first time. I now had company in my little sinful indulgence. I no longer hid the fact that I liked to play poker. I've since played countless hours with friends, online, and the tables of the nicest poker rooms in Vegas. Like the Bible, which I've studied in depth, I've studied the game. My thoughts are never far from poker, as I replay hands in my head, talk with friends about strategy, post on forums, and even dream about such things as bluffing a guy off a straight with a busted flush draw, when the board paired. Am I hypocritical? Perhaps so. I knowingly go against what I've been taught. In addition, I disuade those close to me from playing poker. My younger brother has stood on the rails while I played at Bellagio, but I've tried to insure that was as close to a poker game as he would get. I don't take him to home games with friends, nor do I try to glamorize poker when talking with him. Why do I do this? Because I still believe it's in his best interest to never play the game. I suppose I see the time that I spend playing the game, and the thoughts continually passing through my head, and I want him to be "free" of such things. I want him to use his time to persue his many talents, and not get distracted. More than this, i don't want him to find himself in my situation. I don't want him to be at odds with himself. I don't want him lying in bed at night wondering if he'll ever be able to stop playing the game, while simultaneously wondering if he could have folded his flopped straight when he was sure his opponent turned the flush. I could talk at great length about poker and how it contadicts my own personal beliefs and values. I could continually agonize over these thoughts. Instead, I play the game. I raise when I believe an opponent is weak, check the turn into the raiser and make it two bets to go when I'm strong, and I fold A T to a raise though I'd really like to see a flop. It isn't my place to judge whether another is wrong to play poker. However, I suppose I do this when I "protect" my brother from the game. I am only allowed to judge myself. What is my judgement? I'm troutsmart, an avid poker player, whose learned to consistently win in a game I love. I'm David, a twentysomething thats life would not be the same without the Christian principles I've been taught. I love both. I have been taught not to gamble, and believe it to the extent that I would hope others didn't follow my path. Does poker negatively affect my faith? I believe it does. One day, it may be soon or mybe down the road a bit, I'll have to make a decision. Do I love poker more than I love my faith? I'll have to make a decision. A decision for me, not for you. For me.

[gadjet 11]

This is one of those topics I've usually avoided posting commentary on in the past, though I always am interested in the various opinions expressed by the poker community.I am a Christian who attends church on Sundays. My faith plays an enormous role in my life. That faith has shaped my life dramatically. I am human. I sin, and far more often than I should. It is for this reason that my faith in Christ is so vital to me.The religion to which I belong is well known for its conservative lifestyle. I am LDS or a Mormon as we are often called. We are taught to live lives free of addiction. Though many Mormons do by their own choice, we are taught not to drink alcohol, use tobacco, drink hot drinks (coffee), use harmful drugs, and gamble. I love poker. I was drawn to the game like the moth to the flame. It was the mathmatical portion of the game that first peaked my interest. However, I was soon enthrawled by the psychology, strategy, competion, along with the odds. Intially the money was a side thought, but over time I cannot deny that the money involved has taken a larger role in my love of the game. When I first started playing poker, I did so in private, my own personal affair that I didn't want those close to me to know of. Then I recieved a phone call one evening by a friend telling me that a group of my friends were on their way to my apartment. I asked, "what are we going to do?" He replied, "We're going to play poker." That night, I watched as several of my close friends played poker for the first time. I now had company in my little sinful indulgence. I no longer hid the fact that I liked to play poker. I've since played countless hours with friends, online, and the tables of the nicest poker rooms in Vegas. Like the Bible, which I've studied in depth, I've studied the game. My thoughts are never far from poker, as I replay hands in my head, talk with friends about strategy, post on forums, and even dream about such things as bluffing a guy off a straight with a busted flush draw, when the board paired. Am I hypocritical? Perhaps so. I knowingly go against what I've been taught. In addition, I disuade those close to me from playing poker. My younger brother has stood on the rails while I played at Bellagio, but I've tried to insure that was as close to a poker game as he would get. I don't take him to home games with friends, nor do I try to glamorize poker when talking with him. Why do I do this? Because I still believe it's in his best interest to never play the game. I suppose I see the time that I spend playing the game, and the thoughts continually passing through my head, and I want him to be "free" of such things. I want him to use his time to persue his many talents, and not get distracted. More than this, i don't want him to find himself in my situation. I don't want him to be at odds with himself. I don't want him lying in bed at night wondering if he'll ever be able to stop playing the game, while simultaneously wondering if he could have folded his flopped straight when he was sure his opponent turned the flush. I could talk at great length about poker and how it contadicts my own personal beliefs and values. I could continually agonize over these thoughts. Instead, I play the game. I raise when I believe an opponent is weak, check the turn into the raiser and make it two bets to go when I'm strong, and I fold A T to a raise though I'd really like to see a flop. It isn't my place to judge whether another is wrong to play poker. However, I suppose I do this when I "protect" my brother from the game. I am only allowed to judge myself. What is my judgement? I'm troutsmart, an avid poker player, whose learned to consistently win in a game I love. I'm David, a twentysomething thats life would not be the same without the Christian principles I've been taught. I love both. I have been taught not to gamble, and believe it to the extent that I would hope others didn't follow my path. Does poker negatively affect my faith? I believe it does. One day, it may be soon or mybe down the road a bit, I'll have to make a decision. Do I love poker more than I love my faith? I'll have to make a decision. A decision for me, not for you. For me.

Yes you are a hypocrite if that's the way you view it. I think this explains pretty well the difference between Mormonism and Christianity, it is less about a personal freedom found in the love of God.

[JackTheCat 0]

I THINK IT'S TIME TO GET T-SHIRTS MADE, WITH PPC ON IT, and I don't mean this in a mocking way, I mean that I am not ashamed to be a Poker Playing Christian!!PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR DESIGNS FOR THE SHIRTS TO: magnumo12@yahoo.caJackTheCat"IT'S ALL GOOD!"

[A_Real_Fish 0]

Good Stuff as I have been debating with my wife over the same issues.

[elkang 0]

Holy crap Elkang... you are a self-righteous Ba$tard... Iceman has more meaningful input about Christianity than most of the Christians I've seen. Your arguments and defence of poker is ridiculous.

I disagree strongly again. With Iceman's answers and yours. I'd be glad to continue when I have time. I don't feel I am self-righteous here... no claims were made to righteousness -- I just expressed my difference and reasons why. I did note that non-Christians do have to earn a bit more respect to post, but also noted that many Christians are quite off as well (a point which Ice agreed to).But, to summarize, poker in itself is not bad. I would put it analogous to someone working on Wall street. I stand by my posts and reasons given and fail to see any argument made against them, only new points brought up which I also disagree with.

[elkang 0]

Personally, I'm not not religious at all, but if there is a God, he's probably "tsk tsk"ing you for being a poker player.Ice

Or better yet, this is probably the core of the argument that I am disagreeing with. I say, (IMHO) that God cares about a lot of things before your status as a poker player or not. He is going to "tsk tsk" you for something other than poker.I have a story regarding Zacchaeus the tax collector who is declared a righteous man by Jesus. Poker players are viewed like tax collectors by many religious folk. I also charge that many non-Christians have misformed opinions about what Christianity is all about. I will also admit that many Christians will have problems with my beliefs, but that many others will be on my side. There is a wide gulf within Christianity - as I noted before - and as I predicted I would be spending time dealing with that.We can disagree but I won't throw around any labels of who is righteous or self-righteous. I do suggest you should really understand what it means to be self-righteous, i.e. claiming oneself or one's acts as the source for righteousness.My point is that generalist statements like "poker is bad" are pretty weak and indefensible under any system. These comments are common and make "sense" but are really foolishness.

[elkang 0]

For those who are involved in conversations with Christians about the validity of playing poker....you have an uphill battle, because many of your actions (short of stopping play) makes its hard to justify your play. You are "addicted" and obviously are playing for ungodly reasons like "mammon" and the dark lifestyle. Just by playing, you are open to attack. There's not much you can do about it.These can be legitimate arguments to make, and maybe you should indeed stop playing poker. But, I found the best way to deal with these is to politely ask for evidence where it is impacting your life and values in a -EV way and address those concerns.I think any sane unbiased person can see that there are "good" and "bad" poker players just like with EVERY hobby or profession out there.

[elkang 0]

The religion to which I belong is well known for its conservative lifestyle. I am LDS or a Mormon as we are often called. We are taught to live lives free of addiction. Though many Mormons do by their own choice, we are taught not to drink alcohol, use tobacco, drink hot drinks (coffee), use harmful drugs, and gamble.

I'm sorry, but according to your well established faith - you cannot gamble. Poker is a form of gambling under just about every observation the Church of LDS will apply. You know this. I have not spoken with a Mormon Elder in over 10 years... but you cannot reconcile these two "faiths". The Mormon faith is quite specific on this.You might as well drink tea and Coca-Cola.It;s easier for "Christians" because the flavors of faith there are as wide as there are sodas.

[elkang 0]

1.) Don't make me tap the part where Jesus turns over the money changing tables in the temple…2.) Iceman already said just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right… well that applies here. The Bible consistantly speaks of offering your time in the same way that you offer money and your gifts to God, sitting at a poker table may/or may not be a valid use of free time. 3.) Absolutely ridiculous distortion of Iceman's point. Your by your argument the porn industry is ok in God's eyes because it employs so many people…4.) If you are telling me you feel called specifically to witness to the poker players of the world… I can't really argue with that because God could do anything… however I would be highly skeptical…And finally, this has been one of the most interesting and well-behaved threads that I've read thus far. Thank you everyone…

I find this is well behaved except for some name-calling at me. :wink: I will answer your points and actually bring up what I would consider a good counters to my points.1) If people start playing poker at church and preventing Gentiles from praying I will be concerned. Meanwhile, I think Bingo is an easier target. 2) I agreed with you. I only argued against the fallacy of applying it universally. The argument against me should be "poker" is a waste of time for x, y and z reasons.3) I am only arguing against "zero-sum gain" here. To make your point you need to concentrate on the negative effects of poker (addictions, debt, lies etc) not bring up an unrelated business. You have set up a false strawman here.4) Again, I am only saying that being around "bad people" is not a reason to be away from something, and if anything should be a reason for Christians to be involved with it. I do not trust most American Christians to handle any kind of evangelism or sharing of faith. The anti would be that the poker scene is not a place for evangelism and PPC are not qualified to do so.You should keep the context in mind and not make big picture assumptions. I claim It speaks volumes about your mindset, reading comprehension and argumentation abilities, while falsely depicting mine. That may be harsh but try to prove me wrong. In general, I can answer all your objections by saying "if your principle is true, then apply it to the rest of your life, and see how it goes". It will lead to a hypocrisy or a endless list of exceptions and at become a form of legalism.I can go much longer on this but I will close since that's all I need to invest in this. Many out there will disagree with my points, and many will agree. That's life and I accept it.

[troutsmart 0]

Yes you are a hypocrite if that's the way you view it. I think this explains pretty well the difference between Mormonism and Christianity, it is less about a personal freedom found in the love of God.I didn't intend to bring up an arguement regarding Mormonism. I readily admit that I'm hypotcritical in regard to the conflict in me playing poker and my conviction that I should not. First off, I consider myself a Christian, being a believer in Christ. The difference in Mormonism and traditional Christianity is not about personal freedom, but rather in doctrine regarding revelation from God to prophets. I don't have a personal mentality of us against them when it comes to Christianity and Mormonism. I have a mentality of being together.I will argue the point of personal freedom. I'm free to chose to do whatever I like to do. I play poker, because I have that choice. I am not contained by rigid laws that make me feel confined. Yes, as a Mormon, things are fairly black and white, but I have the right to live in the grey if I so chose, or any shade in the spectrum. Honestly, I've found great enjoyment in the white area, and great sorrow in the black. If I chose to live in the white it is because of a Love of God and belief in Christ, not because of pressure from a "Mormon" restriction of freedom.I'm sorry, but according to your well established faith - you cannot gamble. Poker is a form of gambling under just about every observation the Church of LDS will apply. You know this. I have not spoken with a Mormon Elder in over 10 years... but you cannot reconcile these two "faiths". The Mormon faith is quite specific on this. You might as well drink tea and Coca-Cola. It;s easier for "Christians" because the flavors of faith there are as wide as there are sodas. I always enjoy your posts elkang. According to my well established faith-- I can gamble --- though there is a consequence for doing so. Not a punishment from the church, but a spiritual consequence.I understand your point though. I'm definitely in the minority where I specifically know and believe gambling to be something that I should not do. Therefore, I'm a far greater sinner than those where things aren't so defined, if gambling is indeed a sin. I will concede that. My original point deals largely with this. The separtation of Gambling and Christian belief occurs on a personal basis. Truth is truth, but lives are personal. We make personal decisions according to understanding and belief. Therefore, everybody is not on the same page.

[jack24bauer24 0]

I don't think God is immune to the recent poker craze. He's probably playing no-limit hold'em against elvis, JFK, ghandi, jimi hendrix, etc.I mean, talk about the 'BIG GAME'!!!

Lol at that. I might have to change my mind about the funnist post ever on FCP.

[TheIceman05 0]

Elkang-I've calmly refuted your points as well as I can. I disagree with your logic; that is to say, much of what you say may be true, but the logical conclusions you draw are invalid.In any case, I think what bothers me most about your postings is the implication that since I am NOT a devout Christian, my interpretations (well-founded, at that) of the Christian faith are somehow less weighty. Also, saying, "you're a hypocrite!" isn't really a valid or logical argument. Just because someone takes a (passive or active) "do as I say, not as I do" stance, it doesn't make what he says any less correct. And, by the way, about my "tsk tsk"ing comment... You claim that God cares a LOT more about so much else before he considers your poker-playing status. Exactly my point. Hence my choice of words. He's not smiting you. He's not sitting angrily in judgment, damning you to hell, whispering in St. Peter's ear. Tsk tsk. Mild disapproval, but not "closing the pearly gates" stuff. Ice

[Pupsta 0]

parents and teachers for the first 18 years of your life tell you what you can and can't do, and bosses and spouses do it for the rest of your life. I'm not about to let a book tell me that I can't sit down at a poker table and have some fun or have a shot of whiskey or bet 20 bucks on the pats. any god that disapproves me having fun in a lawful manner isn't a god for me.

[gadjet 11]

Your last quote says it all. "I'm not not religious at all". I sak that you refrain from making comments about the Christian religion. I get enough problems from people who do actively go to church. :wink: actually, no joke.

Elkang, this comment is why you are a self righteous ba$terd.You said:I do suggest you should really understand what it means to be self-righteous, i.e. claiming oneself or one's acts as the source for righteousness. You believe that you as a Christian have the right to tell Iceman not to post here because he isn't a Christian like you. You feel that only Christians have the knowledge to post here. This comment reflects a perfect example of self-righteousness... and now I'll move onto to your next jacka$$ post.

[gadjet 11]

I find this is well behaved except for some name-calling at me.  :wink:  I will answer your points and actually bring up what I would consider a good counters to my points.1) If people start playing poker at church and preventing Gentiles from praying I will be concerned. Meanwhile, I think Bingo is an easier target.  2) I agreed with you. I only argued against the fallacy of applying it universally. The argument against me should be "poker" is a waste of time for x, y and z reasons.3) I am only arguing against "zero-sum gain" here. To make your point you need to concentrate on the negative effects of poker (addictions, debt, lies etc) not bring up an unrelated business. You have set up a false strawman here.4) Again, I am only saying that being around "bad people" is not a reason to be away from something, and if anything should be a reason for Christians to be involved with it.  I do not trust most American Christians to handle any kind of evangelism or sharing of faith. The anti would be that the poker scene is not a place for evangelism and PPC are not qualified to do so.You should keep the context in mind and not make big picture assumptions. I claim It speaks volumes about your mindset, reading comprehension and argumentation abilities, while falsely depicting mine. That may be harsh but try to prove me wrong.  In general, I can answer all your objections by saying "if your principle is true, then apply it to the rest of your life, and see how it goes". It will lead to a hypocrisy or a endless list of exceptions and at become a form of legalism.I can go much longer on this but I will close since that's all I need to invest in this. Many out there will disagree with my points, and many will agree. That's life and I accept it.

Oh man, you are a prime example of why I feel people like Iceman have a closer handle on the real Truth behind the Bible and God's teachings than the majority of "Christians" out there... The stance you take as a "fellow" Christian makes my stomach turn. Now that that's off my chest...You say to keep context in mind, yet you yourself took each one of Iceman's comments out of perspective, my responses were a direct response to your arguments against Iceman's original post. You conveniently left those off of your quote which distorts my comments and they lose their context. So I suggest you reread once and respond. Start with Iceman's post then your response and then mine... then you will see the full context.You then move on to self-righteously downtalk my arguing ability when you are more guilty of your own accusations yourself. Finally you take your little self-righteous (Wow it applies all three times I use it for you… interesting…) pot-shots at my mindset, reading compreshension and argumentation abilities… I called you a bastard and I could keep going on about this but I feel that's all I need to invest in this… I await your response.

[JackTheCat 0]

To Iceman05Thanks Ice for clearing up what you meant by the tsk, tsking you thought God might be doing regarding my poker playing. It's good to know you don't think I'll be smitten, or smited, or smote down (not sure which is grammatically correct) LOLI really do appreciate your comments on the topic, even if I don't fully agree with them. The thing about tolerance is that we can agree to disagree without the relativism of all answers or truths being right.The truth I hold to is Jesus Christ, and I hope that you come to know Him in a personal way, as He has only brought more joy and understanding to my life.That being said, Keep flopping Aces, and enjoy the game 8) JackTheCat "IT'S ALL GOOD!"

[JistTheFist 0]

this is an interesting thread. I am a christian. and this is the way I see certain aspects of the game...The money aspect:Ok... first of all, God is not mad at you for having money... so you can't say this is a form of greed. He says a fool and his 'gold' are soon parted so I guess you could take this as a gambler WILL go broke sometime... but I don't really think so... It's good that you tithe your winnings... I'm sure He'll bless you for it. the 'sin' aspectI'm just gonna say.. I don't think Texas Hold'em is gambling. If you really study the game and play it well... you WILL win eventually. you just need to know pot odds, etc etc... It's a game where you can give yourself an edge just by studying the game and use that to your advantage to take the noobies money... Is it unethical or (sinful) to take another person's money? no, they put that money there to lose. It isn't a sin for you... they would have lost it anyway to another person. If you do magic tricks for $5 is it a sin to collect when a perosn sees one? it's the same thing... they know very well what they're doing and that they have the potential to lose the money. so collecting it when you win isn't wrong at all.Also, even though you people will most definitely say "anytime you put money on the line when you could use it is gambling"... fine... go by the definition... but it doesn't say in the bible anywhere that gambling is a sin... once you get an addiction or start to love Poker more than God.. than yeah, but when it's just a recreational thing to do or a great way to socialize with friends... no it is not a sin... even if it was God would forgive it... that's what He does.[/b]

[elkang 0]

Since, I've been asked for responses, I'll bite, but this is all I've got. I made my points (that poker should not be defined as "bad" or non-Christian), and I'd be glad to discuss this in person sometime. Sorry, I don't have more time or energy online for this. And I do hope the conversation continues at a productive level. Feel free to have the last word, as this was mine.I would request that someone dig up some of recent countless posts, articles written about this by professional teachers, writers and seminarians. The ones I read long ago would list about every viewpoint here and then some.