Bobby Bring-in 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Full Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $3/$67 playersConverterPre-flop: (7 players) Hero is BB with UTG raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.Flop: (6.5SB, 3 players)Hero checks, UTG bets, Button calls, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Button Caps, Hero...Upon UTG's 3 bet..i was 100% sure he had AK and was quite upset that he decided to reraise to get rid of the button as it was the only money we would make off the hand. Then the button caps it!As far as the buttons range...the only hand that crossed my mind was 99, i suppose a smooth called AA is possible, but unlikely and it would have me in just as bad of shape.Anyway, how sure of the button's hand do i have to be to just fold right there to the flop given that im positive UTG has the exact same hand as myself? With the action and the dry flop i was in the 80% range which makes it an easy fold but say i was only 30% that he had a set and his range could have been bigger...still a fold knowing that you are sharing someone else's hand? Link to post Share on other sites
Pancake407 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 3-bet PreflopCall flopget to showdown.IMO.I cant fold TPTK on a board like that. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 3-bet PreflopCall flopget to showdown.IMO.I cant fold TPTK on a board like that.Yup.As played, call the cap and call down.- ZachEDIT - I just realized the button call/capped it. He's either a retard or he has a set... Link to post Share on other sites
sche0576 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 This would be a difficult fold but I think it may be correct. It does seem like the button has 99...but are you really that sure utg has ak?? Its definitely not aa?? I think this is a tough fold as the pot is now getting pretty big. I probably call the 2 bets and hope utg checks to the button on the turn and we are able to call it down for 2 bets. If utg leads out and button raises I think it is now time to fold. 3-bet PreflopCall flopget to showdown.IMO.I cant fold TPTK on a board like that.The more I think about this....doesn't the call/reraise by the button really seem like a set??? I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to lay it down but maybe it's the right move...thoughts??edit--zach beat me to it Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 you don't know UTG's handplease 3-bet preflopplease dont' quote me anything about not raising out of the blinds.you equity is too strong not to with AK. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 you don't know UTG's handplease 3-bet preflopplease dont' quote me anything about not raising out of the blinds.you equity is too strong not to with AK.Yup. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 ****************at 3/6 Buttons don't 3-bet 99?well BB's don't 3-bet AK..so ya know..there you go...maybe Button has a set. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 ****************at 3/6 Button don't 3-bet 99?well BB's don't 3-bet AK..so ya know..there you go...maybe Button has a set.You see the same players as 2/4, Actuary. Some people are still retards who don't 3-bet 99... etc...- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 You see the same players as 2/4, Actuary. Some people are still retards who don't 3-bet 99... etc...- Zachor open limp from CO.... Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 or open limp from CO.... I don't get it.... Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I don't get it....99 vs AK vs 77Board: 9AK....bringing back memories? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 99 vs AK vs 77Board: 9AK....bringing back memories? I thought so... but I was thinking you meant at 3/6... lol Link to post Share on other sites
Bobby Bring-in 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 I decided not to raise in this spot as i was going to let UTG lead and i was going to C/R the flop...however this was probably incorrect especially since another player came along inbetween us.As far as UTG's range, i had seen him limp EP with KQo/KQs so for him to 3 bet my C/R he had to have AK or AA or 99.The real point i was trying to draw from this hand was knowing you share someone else's hand and getting alot of action from a 3rd party....how far do you take it? THEORETICAL HAND!!!Pre-FlopUTG (super rock) open raises with a tiny range of AA-QQ AKs/AKo AQsButton(very loose and passive PF) calls with a range of AQ AJ AT KQ KJ QTs any pair 22-77 and for some reason just calls with JJ-88 We are the BB and this time we 3 bet our As Kh :)Everyone just calls!FLOP Ks Js 2hUTG bets, Button calls, Hero raises, UTG 3 bets, Button caps, Hero calls(after the flop we narrow UTG's range to exactly AK as he caps AA/KK PF and he cant have AQs as we have the As)(now we put the Button range to 22 JJ KQ KJ QTo QsTs)Basically what we have is 2 players sharing the same hand vs22 or JJ - we are screwed and given the action is quite possibleKQ - doesn't make alot of sense with the cap but we are way ahead if its trueKJ - we are both drawing to the same hand to beat him (only 2 outs)QTo - we are ahead and he has 6 outs to scoopQsTs - we are still ahead but this time he has 13 outs against us How involved do we want to get here??? With us either splitting or losing the whole pot and a rake working against us i would really like to chuck it on the flop. I can get percentage possibility of each hand for the button if you would like. Or i can stop making up fake hands and we can forget about all this if you'd like that better. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 as much of a math guy that I am, I'm not big on gonig crazy with specific hands because the uncertainty of the read always makes it less exact than the calculations pretend to be.If UTG continues to pound the pot with Button raisng to, letting go is not hard when splitting is your best hope.But if you can face UTG with 2 cold on the turn, and possibly be HU vs a oesd, sure. The fact you are likely splitting reduces your impied odds (1/2)So if he can be made to fold (given the same read of your hand) you can try that.I don't have much to offer hereAs I'm not that experienced really. Link to post Share on other sites
tylerc 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 i love hypothetical hands. so i guess the preflop 3bet is to get info out of the ug to see if he caps. since he doesnt you have to think either ak or aq. when he three bets the flop its an easy fold. who wants half a pot at best when you are putting in a third of it, especially if it gets really ugly on the turn. i think folding is hard mentally but definately the way to go. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 We're three betting preflop for value. Plain and simple. Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 We're three betting preflop for value. Plain and simple.Agreed. You've (theoretically) got an edge and make money every time anybody puts in a bet against you preflop, but when you close the action, they can't put anymore money in with an equity deficit if you don't raise there. Link to post Share on other sites
jayboogie 0 Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I'm 3 betting pre-flop unless I'm up against the tightest rock, which in that case I'll just call and hope to spike an A or K, against an unknown this is a 3-bet for value purposes as well as a chance to see the strength of UTG's hand, whether it's good enough to cap or not. If he caps, it's a lot easier playing AK here than it is if he doesn't. In this case, I'm showing the hand down expecting to be beat or chopping. I'm only calling 1 bet on the latter streets and folding facing 2 cold or maybe even a turn raise. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerplayer24 0 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 I'm 3 betting pre-flop unless I'm up against the tightest rock, which in that case I'll just call and hope to spike an A or K, against an unknown this is a 3-bet for value purposes as well as a chance to see the strength of UTG's hand, whether it's good enough to cap or not. If he caps, it's a lot easier playing AK here than it is if he doesn't. In this case, I'm showing the hand down expecting to be beat or chopping. I'm only calling 1 bet on the latter streets and folding facing 2 cold or maybe even a turn raise.Bad mindset. Against any player when its going to be multi way if its worth calling with AK its worth 3-betting. Link to post Share on other sites
jayboogie 0 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Bad mindset. Against any player when its going to be multi way if its worth calling with AK its worth 3-betting.There's no definites and it's pretty foolish to look at 3-betting AK as something that you definitely have to do, because it's not. If your opponents hand ranges from AA, KK, QQ which is likely for a super rock, why are you 3-betting AK for? Link to post Share on other sites
tylerc 0 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 There's no definites and it's pretty foolish to look at 3-betting AK as something that you definitely have to do, because it's not. If your opponents hand ranges from AA, KK, QQ which is likely for a super rock, why are you 3-betting AK for?this is exactly what i was thinking. if you are so sure about this player, folding might be the best move in this situation and raising is strictly for information. if the only possible hand you are ahead of is aq and you are killed by his other hands (except qq) why would you ever even want to be in this pot? Link to post Share on other sites
jayboogie 0 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 this is exactly what i was thinking. if you are so sure about this player, folding might be the best move in this situation and raising is strictly for information. if the only possible hand you are ahead of is aq and you are killed by his other hands (except qq) why would you ever even want to be in this pot?Well AK is pretty much unfoldable in the blinds, but putting in more money when you already have a grasp of your opponents hand range is pointless. If you know he's a rock, I don't see the benefit in putting in more money when he almost certainly has a better hand than you. Link to post Share on other sites
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