Mockerman1 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Maybe this is a bit of a whining post, but honestly my question is sincere.I'm not talking about losing a hand or two here on suckouts but how to deal with continued losses in tourneys when getting your money in with the best of it. Now some background, I'm not a big money player yet, and I'll be the first to admit that although I've had mixed results at cash games primarily 1-2NL in the casinos, I haven't played enough to gain a real idea of what my expected return is. I do however play in a good deal of tourneys, and as you can tell from above I'm not a highroller so I'm talking Party Freerolls (the $500 ones), I mention this only because of field sizes here. I'll multi-table these tourneys, and it feels like recently I've been busting out on suckouts every night all the time. For instance tonight I was playing in 3 and had my money in with the best of it in all situations and ended up losing all three hands and getting knocked out. The last one, which I remember was my pocket nines in post-flop, against K-7o with him hitting top pair on the flop and me holding the overpair. Anyway, he backdoors a spade flush to the king and knocks me out. The point of all this is, I know I'm playing in large tourneys but I feel I usually outlast the first hour and get deep into the tourney, but when I end up in the money I'm about 40-70 spots in, netting me like a buck or two, and recently I've been getting these hands prior to hitting the money. Again, long post, silly question/discussion, but my question is will I just get used to this, being able to better walk away from a tourney where I feel I played well and still got nowhere? If not, what's the best way to deal with this?Anyway again, sorry for the long rambling and somewhat whiney post but I just a)had to vent, and b)feel that possibly some MTT players out there can help me here or maybe discuss something I'm missing, maybe a focus point in my play (which I haven't obviously discussed in detail) that I'm missing or something.Thanks for listening. Link to post Share on other sites
gouldjr27 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Maybe this is a bit of a whining post, but honestly my question is sincere.I'm not talking about losing a hand or two here on suckouts but how to deal with continued losses in tourneys when getting your money in with the best of it. Now some background, I'm not a big money player yet, and I'll be the first to admit that although I've had mixed results at cash games primarily 1-2NL in the casinos, I haven't played enough to gain a real idea of what my expected return is. I do however play in a good deal of tourneys, and as you can tell from above I'm not a highroller so I'm talking Party Freerolls (the $500 ones), I mention this only because of field sizes here. I'll multi-table these tourneys, and it feels like recently I've been busting out on suckouts every night all the time. For instance tonight I was playing in 3 and had my money in with the best of it in all situations and ended up losing all three hands and getting knocked out. The last one, which I remember was my pocket nines in post-flop, against K-7o with him hitting top pair on the flop and me holding the overpair. Anyway, he backdoors a spade flush to the king and knocks me out. The point of all this is, I know I'm playing in large tourneys but I feel I usually outlast the first hour and get deep into the tourney, but when I end up in the money I'm about 40-70 spots in, netting me like a buck or two, and recently I've been getting these hands prior to hitting the money. Again, long post, silly question/discussion, but my question is will I just get used to this, being able to better walk away from a tourney where I feel I played well and still got nowhere? If not, what's the best way to deal with this?Anyway again, sorry for the long rambling and somewhat whiney post but I just a)had to vent, and b)feel that possibly some MTT players out there can help me here or maybe discuss something I'm missing, maybe a focus point in my play (which I haven't obviously discussed in detail) that I'm missing or something.Thanks for listening.I hate to tell you this but there is a good chance this post gets ragged on.I will tell you that I play alot of $1 tournies on Stars and Freerolls on FullTilt for extra practice. You pretty much have to play tight because 99% of the people in those tournies are fish. I actually have fun in them. I surf the net and just play tight, and cash occasionally. I make some bad plays and do get sucked out on a ton. But I think it is mainly the poor play you are up against. I also find that I get sucked out on more on PokerStars. Something you might be interested in is the FullTilt freeroll every night at 1:30. Ferguson plays in them almost everynight. Just make sure you sign up right at 12:30. Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 1) Even the best players have to get rediculously lucky to beat that size of afield. If you go all in 3 consecutive times as a 2-1 favorite you're only about 4-1 dog to win them all. If your opponent has you covered each time that means slim chances to still be alive. Think about how many times youll have to race off in a field of over 8000.2) Try to keep the pots small unless you hold a big edge. Try to outplay people after the flop which is tough in freeroll/play money events where people love to get in preflop and gamble. Avoid racing for your whole stack if you dont have to.So basically don't get your hopes up when facing a huge field and practice small ball baby. Link to post Share on other sites
pckt10s 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 nothing you can do.... I just brush it off most of the time... it isn't the first or the last time you'll get beat on the river... It prolly happens more times in a day than there are seconds in a day... Just make sure you stay within your means and don't end up broke... Link to post Share on other sites
Mockerman1 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 I hate to tell you this but there is a good chance this post gets ragged on.I will tell you that I play alot of $1 tournies on Stars and Freerolls on FullTilt for extra practice. You pretty much have to play tight because 99% of the people in those tournies are fish. I actually have fun in them. I surf the net and just play tight, and cash occasionally. I make some bad plays and do get sucked out on a ton. But I think it is mainly the poor play you are up against. I also find that I get sucked out on more on PokerStars. Something you might be interested in is the FullTilt freeroll every night at 1:30. Ferguson plays in them almost everynight. Just make sure you sign up right at 12:30.Thanks for the response, I know that I'll get flamed a ton here, my question wasn't so much how do I improve my chances of winning - I guess maybe your point is just I shouldn't even enter with the mindset that playing well will get me anywhere. That's true. I guess what I was trying to ask was more how do I overcome the fact that I know I played well, and yeah I do play pretty tight here and I feel like even when I make moves they work out. Anyway, yeah I'm freerolling everywhere - just don't have the cash yet to be able to play for money online. Really I guess I don't play nearly as often as I should if I want to get better or get that cash but oh well.Anyway again thanks for the honest and thoughtful response, don't worry I've been lurking here long enough to know that a post about freerolls will likely get flamed, ah well. I'm just frustrated and needed to put this out there, and this was the first place I thought of. Link to post Share on other sites
FIREonICE 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Just make sure you stay within your means and don't end up broke...going broke playing freerolls...classic! Link to post Share on other sites
Mockerman1 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 Thanks for the response, I know that I'll get flamed a ton here, my question wasn't so much how do I improve my chances of winning - I guess maybe your point is just I shouldn't even enter with the mindset that playing well will get me anywhere. That's true. I guess what I was trying to ask was more how do I overcome the fact that I know I played well, and yeah I do play pretty tight here and I feel like even when I make moves they work out. Anyway, yeah I'm freerolling everywhere - just don't have the cash yet to be able to play for money online. Really I guess I don't play nearly as often as I should if I want to get better or get that cash but oh well.Anyway again thanks for the honest and thoughtful response, don't worry I've been lurking here long enough to know that a post about freerolls will likely get flamed, ah well. I'm just frustrated and needed to put this out there, and this was the first place I thought of.wow thanks everyone for the info, I appreciate it. I know that I guess playing against fields of this size is basically a major disadvantage in terms of any skill edge, but thanks again for the info. Link to post Share on other sites
gouldjr27 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Thanks for the response, I know that I'll get flamed a ton here, my question wasn't so much how do I improve my chances of winning - I guess maybe your point is just I shouldn't even enter with the mindset that playing well will get me anywhere. That's true. I guess what I was trying to ask was more how do I overcome the fact that I know I played well, and yeah I do play pretty tight here and I feel like even when I make moves they work out. Anyway, yeah I'm freerolling everywhere - just don't have the cash yet to be able to play for money online. Really I guess I don't play nearly as often as I should if I want to get better or get that cash but oh well.Anyway again thanks for the honest and thoughtful response, don't worry I've been lurking here long enough to know that a post about freerolls will likely get flamed, ah well. I'm just frustrated and needed to put this out there, and this was the first place I thought of.I am currently in your boat. I started off with $100 in FCP and lost it in about 3 months. I really cannot afford to put anything online myself.The way I see it is you have to ask yourself if you played well. Did you get your money in with the best hand. That goes for any tournament. There would be times when I would get sucked out on and I pushed in with garbage the next hand. Or a weak ace or whatever. That wasn't my best. Poker is about making good decisions. But there is a luck factor as well. And the only thing you can control are your decisions. Link to post Share on other sites
pckt10s 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 going broke playing freerolls...classic! ****_YOU PUTO... Link to post Share on other sites
anselm 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Learn to play a short stack really, really well. When the beats start rolling in and you just want to punch a wall you can then be glad that you get the chance to play STP. It's fun, crazy, and often very profitable. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Maybe this is a bit of a whining post, but honestly my question is sincere.I'm not talking about losing a hand or two here on suckouts but how to deal with continued losses in tourneys when getting your money in with the best of it. Now some background, I'm not a big money player yet, and I'll be the first to admit that although I've had mixed results at cash games primarily 1-2NL in the casinos, I haven't played enough to gain a real idea of what my expected return is. I do however play in a good deal of tourneys, and as you can tell from above I'm not a highroller so I'm talking Party Freerolls (the $500 ones), I mention this only because of field sizes here. I'll multi-table these tourneys, and it feels like recently I've been busting out on suckouts every night all the time. For instance tonight I was playing in 3 and had my money in with the best of it in all situations and ended up losing all three hands and getting knocked out. The last one, which I remember was my pocket nines in post-flop, against K-7o with him hitting top pair on the flop and me holding the overpair. Anyway, he backdoors a spade flush to the king and knocks me out. The point of all this is, I know I'm playing in large tourneys but I feel I usually outlast the first hour and get deep into the tourney, but when I end up in the money I'm about 40-70 spots in, netting me like a buck or two, and recently I've been getting these hands prior to hitting the money. Again, long post, silly question/discussion, but my question is will I just get used to this, being able to better walk away from a tourney where I feel I played well and still got nowhere? If not, what's the best way to deal with this?Anyway again, sorry for the long rambling and somewhat whiney post but I just a)had to vent, and b)feel that possibly some MTT players out there can help me here or maybe discuss something I'm missing, maybe a focus point in my play (which I haven't obviously discussed in detail) that I'm missing or something.Thanks for listening.Give any hand the entire board, and it's got a shot. That's why I don't like preflop all-ins with stacks that can hurt you. Link to post Share on other sites
majorleag 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Bottomline you just have to be patient, and if you are confident that you are making the right moves it will all come together.Just make sure that you make an honest evaluation of the moves you make, are you taking position, the type of player you are playing against etc. etc. in to consideration when making your plays?Whether online or in a B&M you will suffer plenty of bad beats, but long term good solid poker will prevail.This weekend I went to Atlantic City and played in a $200 NL tourney and got all the money in with the best of it and got out drawn, I left knowing that next time my hand hopefully holds up.With about $2,300 left of my original $5k and with almost $2k already in the pot I moved all in with Aces fully expecting/hoping to at least double up and maybe more if the original big stack pre-flop raiser calls. He calls with Ace, 7 of hearts and you can guess the rest, 2 hearts on the flop and one on the river and I am on the rail. No big deal, it happens.Hang in there, do plenty of reading and practice, practice practice.GL Link to post Share on other sites
chipchow 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Bottomline you just have to be patient, and if you are confident that you are making the right moves it will all come together.Just make sure that you make an honest evaluation of the moves you make, are you taking position, the type of player you are playing against etc. etc. in to consideration when making your plays?Whether online or in a B&M you will suffer plenty of bad beats, but long term good solid poker will prevail.This weekend I went to Atlantic City and played in a $200 NL tourney and got all the money in with the best of it and got out drawn, I left knowing that next time my hand hopefully holds up.With about $2,300 left of my original $5k and with almost $2k already in the pot I moved all in with Aces fully expecting/hoping to at least double up and maybe more if the original big stack pre-flop raiser calls. He calls with Ace, 7 of hearts and you can guess the rest, 2 hearts on the flop and one on the river and I am on the rail. No big deal, it happens.Hang in there, do plenty of reading and practice, practice practice.GLThis is a quality post by someone who has been there done that and gotten the t-shirt. You exhibit the grace of one who has suffered the bad beats of life with patience. Really, this sounds like fatherly advice. nh. Link to post Share on other sites
hank213 1,823 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 It's frustrating as hell to repeatedly get all your chips in with best of it and then your opponent hits some redonkulously lucky runner runner bs. Such is the nature of the beast. I've seen this a lot around the strategy forum: Focus on correct decisions and not results. For instance, if you knew the guy had K7 with a backdoor flush draw in the hand you discussed can you honestly answer to yourself that you played it correctly? If yes, then there is no shame...It's cold comfort to know that you played the hand correct and still wound up on the losing side of it, but sometimes that's all there is. Keep your chin up, make correct decisions and eventually the winning will take care of itself, or so I've heard hehe. Link to post Share on other sites
yourboygsarida 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 freeroll wise, i would try to build a stack early and not be afraid to gamble with fairly good hands, b/c people push a lot with stuff that you have beat early. I have won a couple and built my bankroll off of that, I find especially in the 1000+ people freerolls, you have to build a fat stack early then tighten up. As for like the 1 dollar tournies, I had the same problem as you for a couple months I would get pretty deep, then run into a sick beat. Try and not get all your money in pre unless you have a hand like aces or kings, and rely more on small pots to build you up. Eventually, you won't get that bad beat and you will have a nice cash, just keep making good plays. Link to post Share on other sites
phlegm 6 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 ****_YOU PUTO... guess that about somes up your feelings. Link to post Share on other sites
majorleag 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 This is one of the better threads I have seen in awhile with some good constructive advice. I also would like to add that for anyone that plays online and hears that it's rigged or maybe you yourself have thought/said that, the same crazy beats happen in a live game as they do online.It is just that you play/see so many more hands online that you end up remembering them more. Also when you have Aces cracked you remember that much more then when you make a desperate move because you are short stacked and win with some crap hand.We always remember the beats more then the lucky wins. The best thing you can do is to play your best, in an attempt to always get your money in the pot with the best of it.You will still make mistakes and when you do, you need to figure out what you did wrong and then make the adjustment the next time you are presented with the same or similar circumstances.The best thing that I have learned over time is to realize that Poker is a life long game if you choose to continue with it, so one or two bad beats are not the end of the world.Yes it is tough when you lose, when you "should" win but that is where long term playing good solid poker will pay off.Also last night in the $10 PS Rebuy I was in a pretty good position with about $19k in chips after the break with the average stack at about $10k. I end up with Ace, King and after having lost 2 other hands previously where I was the favorite going all the way to the river, that had hit my stack pretty hard, the flop comes with 2,3 Ace so not wanting to mess around and having a pot of a few thousand out there I pushed all in. Doing so because I felt that one guy who had been pretty aggressive playing middle strength Aces and weak pairs and calling with them would pay me off. Well he had Ace, Queen and of course hit his 3 outer on the turn knocking me out.I could have been upset but the reality is that I played the hand properly and had my money in, when I was pretty confident that I had the best hand. And I am not sure that I can really blame him after the flop for calling either. Although I can tell you that I am making some pretty good laydowns now and I believe I could have gotten away from Ace, Queen myself knowing the way that I had been playing.You can control how you play a hand, but you cannot control luck. This was a tourney where I played very well but was out drawn in almost every single large pot I was in, that's the way it goes sometimes. You can do most things right and still come out on the short end of it.The other thing I have finally learned the hard way is knowing when you are beat, or most likely beat and making big laydowns even if it is very tough or painful. I made the biggest laydown that I have ever made in this live tourney on Friday, laying down a set of queens. I did so because I was sure I was beat and it turns out my read was right. In order to survive in a tournament and especially in one with many participants is knowing how to make a tough/big laydown. I can't say that I feel I can do it all the time but just doing it once felt about as good as it does to win a huge pot. I can't remember who said it originally to give them proper credit and I am paraphrasing a little here but "chips saved are chips won". How true! Even if your read is wrong and you layed down the best hand, you still have chips, but if you make the wrong read for all your chips, you are on the rail.I won't bore you with all the details here, but I posted it in my blog. It is funny too because while it was very painful I didn't think it was a difficult laydown after I took the time to analyze the situation.In any event, the longer you play the more you mature as a player and then you can better evaluate what is going on. I can tell you that my game is improving dramatically, mainly because I broke my game down to the basics and most importantly was honest with myself regarding mistakes I was making. Link to post Share on other sites
spintwisted 0 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 I found myself with the same problem as the OP. I'd try and play a solid game looking to get deep in a tourney... and usually wound up playing too tight. I found myself having to gamble around the money just to stay alive, or squeaking into the money without enough chips to make a run at some serious money. Many great tourney players, including Ivey, DN, Erick Lindgren etc. use the philosophy of gambling to accumulate chips early, as that is the only way you have a realistic shot at winning the whole thing. The idea is to take risks early and try and get a lot of chips, or go home. You might not make it into the money as consistently, but when you get there you'll be getting deeper and will have a better shot at hitting big. Taking up that philosophy might help you get over that hump and make the big score you are looking for. Link to post Share on other sites
hudday48 0 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Tourneys are high variance no matter how good you are.I read this whenever I wonder if I want to play a tourney. Then I stick with lhe cash games.http://walterzuey.livejournal.com/25968.htmlAnother quote "Every player will eventually run worse then he ever thought possible" that may be scott fishman.So stay strong and learn from your mistakes. You can do it just be patient.You will get used to losing, it dulls your senses. Link to post Share on other sites
Demonde 0 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I was all in with AA vs. KK and a K came on the river. Link to post Share on other sites
zimmer4141 0 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 OK, let's make a couple random assumptions here. Let's assume that you need to double up 6 times to reach a final table. Now let's assume that you get your money in every time as an 80% favorite, which is astronomically unrealistic.4/5=.8 .8^6 = .26, so if you can get your money in as an 80% favorite every single time you go all in, you will only win all of them 26% of the time. Now you will never get your money in everytime as an 80% favorite. Now understand that you will get it in with worse than that almost every time. So don't expect to hold up your hands everytime. Link to post Share on other sites
Tiltinagain 973 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I was all in with AA vs. KK and a K came on the river. Your parents must be so proud! Link to post Share on other sites
baritonick 0 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Yeah, it's funny; until very recently, I had only been playing at a home game once a week or so, as well as a few online tourneys. When would take a bad beat, I would get SERIOUSLY tilted. Especially at my home games, where there are one or two players that have gone on runs of hitting HIGHLY improbable cards for weeks on end. I almost got frustrated enough to quit. Then, I bought in here, and with some of the extra free time I've had, played a LOT of cash games. I'm talking 3 days in a row of 8+ hours/day playing, for the past couple weeks. In that time, I have seen so many hands that I must have seen every possible suck out statistically possible. This experience has afforded me a great amount of perspective when it comes to getting the worst of it when I've had the best of it. In my opinion, this is the best education that you can give yourself. It's still disappointing when I get sucked out on, but it doesn't tilt me anymore, 'cause Lord knows, I've seen worse, lol. Anyway. that's the advice that I can give. It may not help your game, but it'll probably help your brain (and at least give you the right frame of mind to play your best game!)GL Link to post Share on other sites
arerad 0 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Poker is a game of skill and luck.If you get your money in with the best hand, never second guess the results. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 like a man. Link to post Share on other sites
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