Anyone On Here Raised As A Catholic?

[Flack_attack 0]

Sure- which one again?

Luke 11:1-4 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven,[a] Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.” [c]

[Loismustdie 0]

Luke 11:1-4 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven,[a] Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.” [c]

Very good. That is an example of prayer. To God, the father, in heaven. This in no way proves penance, or why a priest is reffered to as father. All this is is an example of how to pray.

[Flack_attack 0]

Well then, why should we refer to our own biological fathers as fathers? Isnt this a-biblical??The Bible says call only God your father. ONLY God. No man. Don't say that this this is supposed to refer to other false Gods.

[Loismustdie 0]

Well then, why should we refer to our own biological fathers as fathers? Isnt this a-biblical??The Bible says call only God your father. ONLY God. No man. Don't say that this this is supposed to refer to other false Gods.

The scripture is talking of giving names in reverence to men that don't deserve them- call no man father, for one is you father. Honour thy father and mother- obviously we have a physical father on earth, everybody does. How in the world would it be reffering to false Gods?

[Flack_attack 0]

The scripture is talking of giving names in reverence to men that don't deserve them

Why are you interpreting it to say this? It doesn't say: don't give reverence to men who don't deserve it. It says: Call no man your father.If you can interpret a phrase as simple and straightfoward as "call no man your father" to actually mean something different, then why can't you do the same for genesis, and interpret seven days to be 4 billion years?

[Loismustdie 0]

Why are you interpreting it to say this? It doesn't say: don't give reverence to men who don't deserve it. It says: Call no man your father.If you can interpret a phrase as simple and straightfoward as "call no man your father" to actually mean something different, then why can't you do the same for genesis, and interpret seven days to be 4 billion years?

First of all, look at the context of what was being talked about in the call no man father scripture:5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,[6] And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,[7] And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.[9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.[10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.[11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. It is quite obvious what he is talking about- men in high perceieved high places that don't deserve to be there- by reading above and below I can see what he is talking about. As far as 7 days being 7 million years- who know? Whats a day to God? If my lifetime to him is a drop in the bucket, 7 days very well could be 7 million years.

[theresa113 0]

Admitedly you haven't read the bible in twenty years and don't go to church. Why even have an opinion?

I don't get an oppinion because I have not done the things you have done. Wow. Just for the record, I have my own truth which I strongly believe is the right relationship for me and God. I pray often, not just everyday but throughout the day. I am a very spiritual person. And remember... this was a thread for people who were raised Catholic. I am still confused why you hijacked this thread. To me, it appears it is out of malice. Which, in my oppionion, is a very un-Christian like thing to do.

[Loismustdie 0]

I don't get an oppinion because I have not done the things you have done. Wow. Just for the record, I have my own truth which I strongly believe is the right relationship for me and God. I pray often, not just everyday but throughout the day. I am a very spiritual person. And remember... this was a thread for people who were raised Catholic. I am still confused why you hijacked this thread. To me, it appears it is out of malice. Which, in my oppionion, is a very un-Christian like thing to do.

Christians tell the truth. What is malicious about that? Not one thing I have said is not true. You want to get to know God? You should know your bible, period. Being spiritual is not neccesarily being Godly, you can be a well- balanced, centered person tottaly in tune with yourself and master of your domain, and still not be Godly. " There is no salvation in any other."

[brvheart 1,752]

In your "I'm tired of fighting thread" you mention that you need to be a better Christian... you could start be not turning people off of what you're saying by being such a huge jerk. You have clearly been a huge condescending jerk to Theresa, basically the entire thread... and I think she and everyone else deserves better. Even crow.

[Loismustdie 0]

In your "I'm tired of fighting thread" you mention that you need to be a better Christian... you could start be not turning people off of what you're saying by being such a huge jerk. You have clearly been a huge condescending jerk to Theresa, basically the entire thread... and I think she and everyone else deserves better. Even crow.

At no point was I condescending to Theresa- when I stated that I believed she was smarter that that, that is exactly what I meant. That's not being condescending, and in no way was it meant to be. The problem isn't my tone, or the way I word things, it's what I say. That's what christianity does- it, by neccesity, divides. It will even divide you, in the constant inner battle within, and hopefully good prevails. This is where religion fails, in that there has been in the last 20-30 years a push to a sort of "It's all good" mentality, and it most definitely not all good biblically speaking. So, where I see a failure when it comes to these subjects I state it, and I am just as hard on myself- and have been so openly in statements on this site about my own struggles. If I catch a little flack for it, so be it.

[dapokerbum 0]

How about a chapter in Revelation that specifically foretells of Catholocism and calls her the Mother of Harlots? That you will actually find, although I would bet that only Matt could do it.

What chapter states this?

[theresa113 0]

At no point was I condescending to Theresa- when I stated that I believed she was smarter that that, that is exactly what I meant. That's not being condescending, and in no way was it meant to be. The problem isn't my tone, or the way I word things, it's what I say. That's what christianity does- it, by neccesity, divides. It will even divide you, in the constant inner battle within, and hopefully good prevails. This is where religion fails, in that there has been in the last 20-30 years a push to a sort of "It's all good" mentality, and it most definitely not all good biblically speaking. So, where I see a failure when it comes to these subjects I state it, and I am just as hard on myself- and have been so openly in statements on this site about my own struggles. If I catch a little flack for it, so be it.

This is the first time I have ever heard someone actually say that the teachings of God should divide. I am totally blown away that anyone could claim to know God and say something like this. Fear divides. Love unites. You do not have to read the bible to know this universal truth.

[crowTrobot 2]

This is the first time I have ever heard someone actually say that the teachings of God should divide.

you mean other than every prophet in the OT, jesus, muhammad (and george bush)? fundamentalism is all about division.

[theresa113 0]

The division that I always heard was God's judgement after death, who goes to heaven and hell. Not division on earth or because of belief. At least this was my intepretation. To actually say God wants us to divide apears to be in complete contrast of the defination of God. And if God wanted us to divide, than why would there be prophets? Anyway... I am never going to change anyone's mind. I am too lazy to find bibical quotes and all of that stuff. At the same time, no one will change what I believe even if they tell me it is in the bible. The bible in my opinion, is a book that uses lots of literary language, not to be taken literal. The point is the story, not the sentence. You don't use metaphors and expect them to be the message, metaphors are used to delve into your own personal experience.

[crowTrobot 2]

The division that I always heard was God's judgement after death, who goes to heaven and hell. Not division on earth or because of belief. At least this was my intepretation. To actually say God wants us to divide apears to be in complete contrast of the defination of God.

definition of god? you mean the god that slaughtered millions of people in the OT because they weren't jews?

And if God wanted us to divide, than why would there be prophets?

the main function of OT prophets was to preach to the jews - telling them to stay divided as god's chosen people and leading them to conquer infidels. see also muhammad. jesus also implied christians should remain separatist (although not judging those you were separate from).

The bible in my opinion, is a book that uses lots of literary language, not to be taken literal. The point is the story, not the sentence. You don't use metaphors and expect them to be the message, metaphors are used to delve into your own personal experience.

cool, but good luck getting any fundamentalists to agree.

[semaj550 0]

Please provide scripture that suggests God wishes His people to be divided.Our purpose is to love God. But to love God we must love one another. We cannot do that if we seek to separate ourselves from one another.

[crowTrobot 2]

Please provide scripture that suggests God wishes His people to be divided.

in the NT 2nd corinthians 6:14-16 comes to mind. i was mainly referring to the violent, separatist history of the jewish nation as god's chosen people in the OT, though. fundamentalism by nature is divisive. you may think it shouldn't be, but it always will be.

[semaj550 0]

in the NT 2nd corinthians 6:14-16 comes to mind. i was mainly referring to the violent, separatist history of the jewish nation as god's chosen people in the OT, though. fundamentalism by nature is divisive. you may think it shouldn't be, but it always will be.

In 2 Corinthians 6 Paul is telling us to not be like those that do not believe. His letter doesn't create division, it merely acknowledges that those who do not believe have divided themselves from God and from His people. In the beginning man was created to love and serve the Lord, however, along the way there became those who chose a different path. Scripture did not divide them, their own decision to not believe did.You know, if you read the Gospels, Jesus tells us to love those same people. He teaches us that they are no less children of God than we are.

[crowTrobot 2]

In 2 Corinthians 6 Paul is telling us to not be like those that do not believe.

ok i'll take your word for it that "be not yoked with them" & "have no fellowship with them" or whatever it says just means don't be like them lol.

In the beginning man was created to love and serve the Lord, however, along the way there became those who chose a different path. Scripture did not divide them, their own decision to not believe did.

somehow i don't think most non-jews in the OT were given much opportunity to believe in the jewish god.

You know, if you read the Gospels, Jesus tells us to love those same people. He teaches us that they are no less children of God than we are.

yes i said that, but his teachings have still ultimately always lead to separatism and social boundaries, now more so than ever. if you take out all the heaven/hell, saved/infidel stuff and stick with love your neighbor as yourself everything would be fine. unfortunately fundamentalists tend to focus on the former.

[semaj550 0]

ok i'll take your word for it that "be not yoked with them" & "have no fellowship with them" or whatever it says just means don't be like them lol.

First off, you are misquoting any of the editions of the Bible with which I am familiar. In the Revised Standard Version (the closest I have to that used in Catholic services) Paul tells us, "Do not be mismatched with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Be'lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, 'I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.'" (2 Corinthians 6:14-16). That's the passage you pointed me to.Being "yoked" with them has very different meaning that having "fellowship" with them. To be yoked with someone would mean to be burdened by the same things by which they are burdened. Paul only asks us what fellowship good and evil have, he doesn't tell us to have no fellowship with those who are evil, only to avoid they same yoke they carry.

somehow i don't think most non-jews in the OT were given much opportunity to believe in the jewish god.

Man, by his very nature has free will (see Deuteronomy 30:11 for an OT reference). The way to believe in the "jewish god" [sic] was within the hearts of all non-jews who had only but to act upon it. It may have been difficult but as Jesus teaches us, loving God is not always easy, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake with will find it." (Matthew 16:24-25). They had every opportunity to choose to believe.

yes i said that, but his teachings have still ultimately always lead to separatism and social boundaries, now more so than ever. if you take out all the heaven/hell, saved/infidel stuff and stick with love your neighbor as yourself everything would be fine. unfortunately fundamentalists tend to focus on the former.

How does people blatently ignoring or misunderstanding the Word of God support the position that the Word is itself the cause of division?

[crowTrobot 2]

First off, you are misquoting any of the editions of the Bible with which I am familiar.

king james is pretty obscure i guess. it reads very different than what you wrote. but whatever - interpret however you want since that's not the point. obviously the bible as a whole is pretty obscure and wide open to interpretation, and everyone who uses it molds it to fit their preconceptions and/or pre-existing agendas. otherwise christians would not be so divided on virtually every point.

Man, by his very nature has free will (see Deuteronomy 30:11 for an OT reference). The way to believe in the "jewish god" [sic] was within the hearts of all non-jews who had only but to act upon it. It may have been difficult but as Jesus teaches us, loving God is not always easy, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake with will find it." (Matthew 16:24-25). They had every opportunity to choose to believe.

OT gentiles had every opportunity to believe? where does it even come close to implying that in the bible?

How does people blatently ignoring or misunderstanding the Word of God support the position that the Word is itself the cause of division?

ok then, it's not the bible's fault that people "misunderstanding" it have caused so much social division. it's their fault

[semaj550 0]

king james is pretty obscure i guess. it reads very different than what you wrote. but whatever - interpret however you want since that's not the point. obviously the bible as a whole is pretty obscure and wide open to interpretation, and everyone who uses it molds it to fit their preconceptions and/or pre-existing agendas. otherwise christians would not be so divided on virtually every point.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."Sounds a lot like I wrote.

OT gentiles had every opportunity to believe? where does it even come close to implying that in the bible?

Sorry, but everyone is born equally free to believe. Where it the Bible does it even come close to discouraging gentiles from believing?

ok then, it's not the bible's fault that people "misunderstanding" it have caused so much social division. it's their fault

Is it the Koran to blame for terrorism?One of the most important messages in the Bible is very simple, "'This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12)Anyone who creates social division in the name of God is misunderstanding this very clear commandment.

[crowTrobot 2]

Sorry, but everyone is born equally free to believe.

that's just ludicrous on many levels. not only is it an overly simplistic view of the extremely complex issue of free will that is far from reality, but certain passages in the bible (used by calvinists) can be interpreted to imply the exact opposite.

Is it the Koran to blame for terrorism

yes, in part.

One of the most important messages in the Bible is very simple, "'This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12)

god did not give gentiles much love in the OT, so even that verse is irrelevant to the overall picture.

[Flack_attack 0]

Even though I am Catholic, I tend to agree with Crow about non-jews in the Old Testament. There are instances where God commands the annhilation of entire cities (slaughter all men, women, and children, that is) and enslavement of peoples. He also commands his prophets to murder other prophets, and he forbids physically disabled and retarted people from approaching his altar. The contradictions of God from the OT to the NT is one of the things that I struggle hardest with in my faith.

[Loismustdie 0]

Even though I am Catholic, I tend to agree with Crow about non-jews in the Old Testament. There are instances where God commands the annhilation of entire cities (slaughter all men, women, and children, that is) and enslavement of peoples. He also commands his prophets to murder other prophets, and he forbids physically disabled and retarted people from approaching his altar. The contradictions of God from the OT to the NT is one of the things that I struggle hardest with in my faith.

Don't. It's not worth it. If you look at the big picture, and what was allowed then vs. what was allowed now biblical wise what you see is God just allowing humans to be a lesser brand of human- you and I look at a retarded person and we see a retarded person, but a person no less- people back then were not quite as insightful. I had never heard that before, and would love to see that scripture but it wouldn't suprise me. Alot of things God allowed, asked for was more tailored to a more barbaric being. Anyone agree with that assesment?And about division- 2 scriptures come to mind:1Cor.110] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.Luke.12[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:[52] For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.[53] The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. I'm done telling people what things mean, so let's play this hand different. You tell me what you think it means and we will figure it out together.