Anyone On Here Raised As A Catholic?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I had very different experience, I remember absolutely nothing about the classes we took before confirmation( must have really had an impact on me ) I just got dressed up, and met my sponser at the church with the rest of my classmates. It meant nothing to me, or if it did I don't remember now. In fact, if I rejoin the church I will probably request to go thru confirmation again( if possible)I don't understand about the annulment, did the church do something wrong?I definately think you are onto something about the chants. I think you could even use the Rosery as a way of getting close to and meditating on God and his will for you. As I said before, I still have questions about the Catholic faith. It just doesnt' seem to be turning out good strong Christians. At least not around here.

[Braveheart91 0]

Zealous Donkey, Welcome.I am but a dwarf standing on the shoulders of giants, I've used many resources to research Catholicism (in my futile attempts to disprove it), Scott Hahn's work being invaluable (especially since he as a former protestant, spoke my "language") but there are other great resources to look to: Anything from Catholic Answers, Mark Shea, Karl Keating, the Coming Home Network, EWTN, etc. (For Protestants, converts tend to be able to communicate the faith better simply because of the sensitivity to the "language" gap) There is also some great classical resources available online such Newman's Development of Christian Doctrine, Apologia Pro Vita Sua, the Patristic writings, etc. Kreeft's (Peter Kreeft, philosopher and Catholic convert) Catholic Christianity was also useful. Also useful (particularly for identifying with the emotional side of conversion for a Protestant) was Chesterton's essay Conversion and the Catholic ChurchAs to your concern about the Church turning out good christians, I suspect the Church is still coming out of a period where the faithful received the "Upper levels of the Catholic skyscraper, but not its foundation" I think the turbulence of the Post-Vatican II era is at the root of much this(liturgical and catechetical abuses).As to best discern, on an intellectual level, the truth of Catholic claims is to read the Anti-Catholic apologetical work after you have learned what the Church teaches and claims, you will see the profound absurdity of the arguments against the Church. Claims that Constantine brought in all the pagan practices with his conversion, referring to rites such as the Eucharist (which are plainly in the earliest writings of the Church predating Constantine). The Revelation passage you mention, hadn't thought of that, could very well be. The best argument I have heard/read is that Christ being fully God and fully Man had to derive his perfect humanity from Mary, and that she being the New Eve (and simultaneously the New Ark of the Convenant) it would stand to reason that she would be saved from original sin as a special charism to fulfill God's plan.Lois,I thought you were going to try to answer my point (like your reply indicated) so is it that you have lost interest or that you can't adequately answer it?

[WrongWay 0]

theresa, do you wonder why so many Catholics abandon the faith when they come of age. It appears to be an epidemic, an epidemic hopefully the church will try and correct.

2 words... Birth Control.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

2 words... Birth Control.

You are probably right. However, As I stated earlier, a study of the early church supports this. And most all the early protastant churches had same beliefs until relatively recently. I will try to get you some sources to back this up when I have time. Thank You Braveheart, for your response. Many of those mentioned in you post are what has sent me down the path I now follow. I work the midnight shift, and watch tv most of my shift. As I was clicking through the channels one night I happened to see Jeff Suppan (Pitcher for the ST. Louis Cardinals baseball team) being interviewed on Life on the Rock on EWTN. Being a huge Cardinal fan, I listened to Jeff's story. After that was over "Coming Home" came on and had 4 people talk about there conversion to Catholicism. Two of the people on that show mentioned Scott Hahn. The next show happened to have an interview with Scott Hahn. When i got home I listened to Scotts Conversion Story over the internet and from there have been reading alot of Catholic literature. I guess you could say Jeff Suppan or EWTN started me on my journy home. I still have alot of studying to do but I already have a much greater appreciation for the Catholic faith than ever before.

[TenaciousMe 0]

What truly deeply saddens me is someone with your lack of reasoning and writing skills has the gall to be condescending to anyone.

Where did you come from?I like you.

[WrongWay 0]

You are probably right. However, As I stated earlier, a study of the early church supports this. And most all the early protastant churches had same beliefs until relatively recently. I will try to get you some sources to back this up when I have time.

I'm not arguing that the church should change its policy. The question was why so many young people leave the Catholic Church.And, it isn't just because they want to be able to have sex without a huge risk of unwanted pregnancy. The ban on birth control is just the "high spot" in showing how out of touch the Catholic Church is with modern sociatal values..... again, I'm not advocating the church change.... just stating why people leave.If the church were to suddenly start allowing non-abortive birth control such as condom and diaphram, then there would be another "high spot" that would show young people that the church teachings are out of whack with their personal values.... Once upon a time, it was divorce... which the church still "officially" bans but anyone that works hard enough on their annulment gets one... so in practice, they now allow divorce. Once upon a time, it was other things, like indulgences... give the church enough cash and you can be forgiven for anything.What will it be next that drives people away when the church backs off on the "no birth control"? Will it be abortion? Gay rights? Priest marriage? The BORING, impersonal, ancient rituals? What it really comes down to is that morals don't come to people from God as most religious people believe. In fact, morals come from people, and if a church refuses to change its teachings of "God's Will" to match the morals of the people, then the people will move to a new religion.Evolutionary survival of the fittest, but applied to belief rather than genitics.The Catholic Church has two choices... 1) change its teaching. 2) continue to experience a large number of young followers defecting to other religions.BTW: I was raised without religion, and am a strong agnostic. I was married for 15 years to a wandering Catholic who returned to her faith after I had a vascectomy. Our children were raised Catholic. The eldest is a "wandering Catholic" after experiencing an unwanted pregnancy. The middle is an ardent agnostic. The youngest is still "in the faith", but she's still not old enough to be concerned with birth control...and how the chruch's stance on that puts it SOOOOO out of whack with the values of our society.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I'm not arguing that the church should change its policy. The question was why so many young people leave the Catholic Church.And, it isn't just because they want to be able to have sex without a huge risk of unwanted pregnancy. The ban on birth control is just the "high spot" in showing how out of touch the Catholic Church is with modern sociatal values..... again, I'm not advocating the church change.... just stating why people leave.If the church were to suddenly start allowing non-abortive birth control such as condom and diaphram, then there would be another "high spot" that would show young people that the church teachings are out of whack with their personal values.... Once upon a time, it was divorce... which the church still "officially" bans but anyone that works hard enough on their annulment gets one... so in practice, they now allow divorce. Once upon a time, it was other things, like indulgences... give the church enough cash and you can be forgiven for anything.What will it be next that drives people away when the church backs off on the "no birth control"? Will it be abortion? Gay rights? Priest marriage? The BORING, impersonal, ancient rituals? What it really comes down to is that morals don't come to people from God as most religious people believe. In fact, morals come from people, and if a church refuses to change its teachings of "God's Will" to match the morals of the people, then the people will move to a new religion.Evolutionary survival of the fittest, but applied to belief rather than genitics.The Catholic Church has two choices... 1) change its teaching. 2) continue to experience a large number of young followers defecting to other religions.BTW: I was raised without religion, and am a strong agnostic. I was married for 15 years to a wandering Catholic who returned to her faith after I had a vascectomy. Our children were raised Catholic. The eldest is a "wandering Catholic" after experiencing an unwanted pregnancy. The middle is an ardent agnostic. The youngest is still "in the faith", but she's still not old enough to be concerned with birth control...and how the chruch's stance on that puts it SOOOOO out of whack with the values of our society.

Well, the values of our society have gotten worse, possibly because they have abandoned teachings of Christianity. The quality of life for the average American is much higher than it was years ago yet do you think people are generally happier. Violence, mistrust, fear, hedonism, neglect and abuse abound in our society as much now, (probably more) as anytime. The abuses and corruption of the church is part of the problem, but that doesn't mean the teachings of Christianity are to blame for societies ills, in fact the opposite is true.

[Flack_attack 0]

What it really comes down to is that morals don't come to people from God as most religious people believe. In fact, morals come from people, and if a church refuses to change its teachings of "God's Will" to match the morals of the people, then the people will move to a new religion.

This is so; our natural morality is byproduct of natural selection. However, who is to say that this didn't come from God?

[Loismustdie 0]

This is so; our natural morality is byproduct of natural selection. However, who is to say that this didn't come from God?

Actually, Flack, look at how true what he said is- if the Church doesn't change it's teachings to reflect the moral standards of society- which is undoubtedly gettting worse- than the people will find a new religion. That was true 2000 years ago- preach unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits. I'm not a fan of wrong way but he is right on with that statement, and guess what? This is a major reason for hell getting fuller and fuller, because most churches would rather bend and preach the smooth, then say forget it and lose revenue. Good point, wrong way.

[Braveheart91 0]

Interesting points. Also interesting is that prior to 1930 all churches (read denominations) were opposed to contraception, now only the Catholic Church maintains that contraception is always wrong.

[Loismustdie 0]

Interesting points. Also interesting is that prior to 1930 all churches (read denominations) were opposed to contraception, now only the Catholic Church maintains that contraception is always wrong.

That's not true. Church of Christ supports that idea as well, within reason. Meaning, if the mother would be forced into a life threatening situation by a pregnancy, or if say one of the partners has a sexually transmitable disease, then contraception would be fine. The idea is to not interfere with nature, while not being stupid in following that line of thinking. God commands you to love your spouse, he doesn't require that you get his VD as well. We should use our beans.

[Braveheart91 0]

Like I said, the only one that teaches contraception is always wrong.

[WrongWay 0]

The quality of life for the average American is much higher than it was years ago yet do you think people are generally happier. Violence, mistrust, fear, hedonism, neglect and abuse abound in our society as much now, (probably more) as anytime. The abuses and corruption of the church is part of the problem, but that doesn't mean the teachings of Christianity are to blame for societies ills, in fact the opposite is true.

Happiness is all relative to expectaions. The people that live through the significant improvement, are happier. For example, the people that lived through the great depresion we're much happier when it was over. They were excedding their expectations.Baby boomerd, us GenXers (I'm technically a GebXer, but only by 1 year), and later generations have MUCH higher expectations. Therefore, it is MUCH harder for us to be happy.Some people are able to acheive happiness by using self and group hypnosis to acheive belief in a silly mythology to convince themselves that they have the key to happiness. I'd have no problem with that if they'd be content in their warm pile of fecies. Unfortunatly, they seem to want to lure us all into the crap. The mental death of hypnosis invoked mytholigical belief is about the worst form of hell I can imagine.

This is so; our natural morality is byproduct of natural selection. However, who is to say that this didn't come from God?

If others have pointed out, if he created it for us, then he also created it for a large number of primates. Chimps, Gorillas, Oragutans, and other apes have shown to understand and become unhappy when they are being treated unfairly, or when the behavior of som e individuals is not in the best interest of the group.

I'm not a fan of wrong way but he is right on with that statement, and guess what? This is a major reason for hell getting fuller and fuller, because most churches would rather bend and preach the smooth, then say forget it and lose revenue. Good point, wrong way.

I'm almost always right. Why, becuase when I'm wrong, I change my opinion so that I'm more right. After many decades of many changes in opinion, I've gotten much closer than those that start with one belief, that elevate that belief onto a pedistal where it is above question.All of my points are good. Most, you just don't like because they challenge the opinion that you have place high upon a pedistal above question.Finally.... Christianity is just the new Judaism/Peganism. It is't some rock that has always been and always will be. It was the reformation of its time. It was the pop-culture religion that taught what people wanted to hear. It attracted followers, not because it was TRUTH, but because it told people what they wanted to hear.Then, once it had enough converts, it became the hammer of the elite, used as justification for subjigating the populace to the will of the few through appeal to unqualified authority... (divine right).With the Renanisance and Enlightenment, we through off many of the shacklesof religion. Now we face a fundamentalist movement which seeks to hold onto the last shards of the binds. No, not just hold onto, but replace many of the shackles of the past.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Finally.... Christianity is just the new Judaism/Peganism. It is't some rock that has always been and always will be. It was the reformation of its time. It was the pop-culture religion that taught what people wanted to hear. It attracted followers, not because it was TRUTH, but because it told people what they wanted to hear.What was it about Christianity, that made it so appealing to the "pop-culture" what was Christianity teaching that "people wanted to hear." Did they want to hear that they were allowed to have sex with one partner, they weren't allowed to divorce or, except on rare occasions, remarry. If you mean the living forever thing-- well of the thousands of other religions many if not most had similar promises. Why did Christianity stick? Why did the whole of the Roman empire convert in an extremely short period of time? What was it about Christianity that distinguished it from the thousands of other religions practiced at the time? Were the early teachers just exceptionally charismatic? Why did these teachers die horrible deaths for what they knew to be a scam. Please " Enlighten" me.

[WrongWay 0]

Christianity offered a kind, caring, loving God. Other God's fo the time were MUCH, MUCH bigger jerks than the God of Christianity. For example, the God of the Old Testiment... NO, it is NOT the same God as the New Testiment. The God of the Old Testiment is a uncaring Jerk that demand obedience, and tortures and kills anyone that does not obey. He furns with fire, drowns in floods, and destroy's lives just to demonstrate a point.The Greek Gods, the Roman Gods, the Egyptian Gods, Babylonian Gods, etc, were all uncaring jerks. Humans were their play things, to screw with (figurative and literal). Christianity offered a caring God that looked out for you, cared about you, etc.More importantly, Christianity offered hope to people that were being oppressed. The Roman Empire was an abusive, corrupt dictatorship. There was an elite class that had a very good life, but most Europeans were slaves, under the boot of the Romans. Christianity was a religion of the people, telling them that they, the meek, not the lords of the Roman Empire, were the "good" people. A poor person, teaching love and understanding, standing up to the Romans, performing miracles, looking out for "the people". VERY pop culture.300 years later, as the empire was crumbling, the "elite" decided that they needed the people on their side, rather then working against them, so they choose to adopt the pop culture religion. But first, to bring the thousands of versions together into a single "official" version. After the fall of the Roman Empire, Christianity stuck because the new "lords" could use it to control and motivate the people. Religion works much more effectivly than the sword. With the sword, you know you're being controlled.... With religion, you're happy about being a puppet to the power elite.

[Flack_attack 0]

Happiness is all relative to expectaions. If others have pointed out, if he created it for us, then he also created it for a large number of primates. Chimps, Gorillas, Oragutans, and other apes have shown to understand and become unhappy when they are being treated unfairly, or when the behavior of som e individuals is not in the best interest of the group.

What are you getting at about Chimps, etc? First of all, happiness comes from natural selection, like all emotions and feelings. Therefore, our close relatvies on the evolutionary scale should have some inklings of emotions like "happiness" (when they are engaging in an action that is profitable in the evolutionary sense) and "sadness" (when something happens negative in the evolutionary sense, such as death of offspring).

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Christianity offered a kind, caring, loving God. Other God's fo the time were MUCH, MUCH bigger jerks than the God of Christianity. For example, the God of the Old Testiment... NO, it is NOT the same God as the New Testiment. The God of the Old Testiment is a uncaring Jerk that demand obedience, and tortures and kills anyone that does not obey. He furns with fire, drowns in floods, and destroy's lives just to demonstrate a point.The Greek Gods, the Roman Gods, the Egyptian Gods, Babylonian Gods, etc, were all uncaring jerks. Humans were their play things, to screw with (figurative and literal). Christianity offered a caring God that looked out for you, cared about you, etc.More importantly, Christianity offered hope to people that were being oppressed. The Roman Empire was an abusive, corrupt dictatorship. There was an elite class that had a very good life, but most Europeans were slaves, under the boot of the Romans. Christianity was a religion of the people, telling them that they, the meek, not the lords of the Roman Empire, were the "good" people. A poor person, teaching love and understanding, standing up to the Romans, performing miracles, looking out for "the people". VERY pop culture.300 years later, as the empire was crumbling, the "elite" decided that they needed the people on their side, rather then working against them, so they choose to adopt the pop culture religion. But first, to bring the thousands of versions together into a single "official" version. After the fall of the Roman Empire, Christianity stuck because the new "lords" could use it to control and motivate the people. Religion works much more effectivly than the sword. With the sword, you know you're being controlled.... With religion, you're happy about being a puppet to the power elite.

First, a question, how would I reply to several snippits of a post with out having to quote the whole post? I have seen several others do this but I can't figure it out So in your view, how did this progress? Was there a meeting of a bunch of scammers, who got together and conspired to create a false god for the good of the "people" . And not one of those mean gods either, but a nicer, kinder god, that will destroy our enemies for us ( though not really because we are just making this up) and protect us from the dangers of society, like crucifixion, boiling in oil, and burning at the stake ( which is how most of these "scammers" ended up dying). Your explanation was too scattered, generel and hard to follow, ( at least for me, I am fairly simple ) could you provide a more detailed progression as to how this evolved.

[WrongWay 0]

What are you getting at about Chimps, etc?

Chimps, gorillas, and other apes have shown a basic sense of "morality" and "fairness".One particular expirament all chimps were given cucumber. All were content. All were given grapes. All were content. Then, half were given cucumber and half given grapes. It would seem they much prefer the grapes as the ones given cucumber threw a fit, while the ones given grapes chose to share with the others. They were able to realize that some were being treated unfairly. This expirament has been repeated many times, with many different items and many different groups of apes. They apply the Golden Rule that members of the group shoud be treated fairly. Apes show morality.In another experament, chimps were it gets cold at night were given access to a warm building to stay warm, but the doors to the building were not closed and the heat was not turned on until all individuals had entered the building. Once one got cold and entered the build, the majority of the group would move. Some would rebel and remain outside.. usually young men. These individuals were yelled at and punished by the rest of the group... even those that weren't cold, but were just going along for the good of the group. Eventually, the straglers get the message and start to conform to group norms.This experiment, and many others like it, have been repeated with many groups and many sepcies of apes. They all show the ability to put the good of the group ahead of personal good. They show basic understanding of morality.

First, a question, how would I reply to several snippits of a post with out having to quote the whole post? I have seen several others do this but I can't figure it out

I do it by copying and pasting the quote and /quote tags to the appropriate locations.

So in your view, how did this progress? Was there a meeting of a bunch of scammers, who got together and conspired to create a false god for the good of the "people" . And not one of those mean gods either, but a nicer, kinder god, that will destroy our enemies for us ( though not really because we are just making this up) and protect us from the dangers of society, like crucifixion, boiling in oil, and burning at the stake ( which is how most of these "scammers" ended up dying). Your explanation was too scattered, generel and hard to follow, ( at least for me, I am fairly simple ) could you provide a more detailed progression as to how this evolved.

The general way a religion gets started is that someone comes up with a philosophy. He attracts others with similar opinions to him. If it is a philosophy that resonates with a lot of people's own feelings, then this group attracts more and more followers. Sometimes the philosophy is at odds with the desires of those in power of the government, and the followers are persecuted. If the religion is very popular with people, eventually they'll get enough followers to reach critical mass where the philosophy is formalized into a religion. They may even get strong enough that they are able to take up arms and force their opinion on others.This is the pattern of Daoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, scientology, neo-paganism(Wicca), and just about every other religion....... I see no reason to think that Christianity was founded any differently.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

They were able to realize that some were being treated unfairly.

Isn't it possible that the others shared in order to keep from getting the **** kicked out of them.

[WrongWay 0]

Isn't it possible that the others shared in order to keep from getting the **** kicked out of them.

Not if they were kept in separate cages, which they were in the case fo this study. The cages touched, so items could be passed between them, but there was no risk of getting the **** kicked out of them... tossed at them, maybe. Another thing the only do to outsiders or individuals that have violated the groups moral code.

[Flack_attack 0]

Chimps, gorillas, and other apes have shown a basic sense of "morality" and "fairness".One particular expirament all chimps were given cucumber. All were content. All were given grapes. All were content. Then, half were given cucumber and half given grapes. It would seem they much prefer the grapes as the ones given cucumber threw a fit, while the ones given grapes chose to share with the others. They were able to realize that some were being treated unfairly. This expirament has been repeated many times, with many different items and many different groups of apes. They apply the Golden Rule that members of the group shoud be treated fairly. Apes show morality.In another experament, chimps were it gets cold at night were given access to a warm building to stay warm, but the doors to the building were not closed and the heat was not turned on until all individuals had entered the building. Once one got cold and entered the build, the majority of the group would move. Some would rebel and remain outside.. usually young men. These individuals were yelled at and punished by the rest of the group... even those that weren't cold, but were just going along for the good of the group. Eventually, the straglers get the message and start to conform to group norms.This experiment, and many others like it, have been repeated with many groups and many sepcies of apes. They all show the ability to put the good of the group ahead of personal good. They show basic understanding of morality.I do it by copying and pasting the quote and /quote tags to the appropriate locations.

Did you not read my post? I agreed with you about the feasibility of apes showing fairness and even explained the source of what we know as morality. I still don't understand what you're trying to prove by using these animals to make a point. What are you getting at?

[Loismustdie 0]

Did you not read my post? I agreed with you about the feasibility of apes showing fairness and even explained the source of what we know as morality. I still don't understand what you're trying to prove by using these animals to make a point. What are you getting at?

He's not getting at anything. It's an observation that apparently chimps can share, and they like grapes. Why that is suprising I have no idea- cucumbers ****, grapes good. Whoopie.

[WrongWay 0]

Heck, even i had to review to figure out how we got here.quick recap:1) Why do people leave Catholic religion as young adults.2) Birth Control: People leave because their morals don't match the church. Church can change, or continue to lose people. Morality comes from people to religion, not from religion to people. People will find a religion whose teachings match thier morals.3) But poeple are less happy now. Is that from lowering morals?4) No, it is not from falling morals. It is from rising expectations. Chimps and other apes are plenty happy with what they have, until the see others having more. Since we're just apes, it is no surprise that we are unhappy despite our very high standard of living since our expectations are even higher.

[Loismustdie 0]

Happiness is all relative to expectaions. The people that live through the significant improvement, are happier. For example, the people that lived through the great depresion we're much happier when it was over. They were excedding their expectations.Baby boomerd, us GenXers (I'm technically a GebXer, but only by 1 year), and later generations have MUCH higher expectations. Therefore, it is MUCH harder for us to be happy.Some people are able to acheive happiness by using self and group hypnosis to acheive belief in a silly mythology to convince themselves that they have the key to happiness. I'd have no problem with that if they'd be content in their warm pile of fecies. Unfortunatly, they seem to want to lure us all into the crap. The mental death of hypnosis invoked mytholigical belief is about the worst form of hell I can imagine.If others have pointed out, if he created it for us, then he also created it for a large number of primates. Chimps, Gorillas, Oragutans, and other apes have shown to understand and become unhappy when they are being treated unfairly, or when the behavior of som e individuals is not in the best interest of the group.I'm almost always right. Why, becuase when I'm wrong, I change my opinion so that I'm more right. After many decades of many changes in opinion, I've gotten much closer than those that start with one belief, that elevate that belief onto a pedistal where it is above question.All of my points are good. Most, you just don't like because they challenge the opinion that you have place high upon a pedistal above question.Finally.... Christianity is just the new Judaism/Peganism. It is't some rock that has always been and always will be. It was the reformation of its time. It was the pop-culture religion that taught what people wanted to hear. It attracted followers, not because it was TRUTH, but because it told people what they wanted to hear.Then, once it had enough converts, it became the hammer of the elite, used as justification for subjigating the populace to the will of the few through appeal to unqualified authority... (divine right).With the Renanisance and Enlightenment, we through off many of the shacklesof religion. Now we face a fundamentalist movement which seeks to hold onto the last shards of the binds. No, not just hold onto, but replace many of the shackles of the past.

You were right on one pouint- I still maintain your general idiocy. As far as christianity lacking staying power, you and what army? Not even Satan can bring down the one true God. Christianity will never go away, it will always be a thorn in your side and a daily reminder of your sin. So, while atheists can believe whatever they want and it's no skin off of my back, it grinds at you daily because what I believe condemns you. Which, if you were actually in the right should just roll off your back, but it doesn't- it eats at you until you feel the need to spew regurgitated liberal rhetoric that doesn't even come close to qualifying as original thought. Good luck, my friend.

Heck, even i had to review to figure out how we got here.quick recap:1) Why do people leave Catholic religion as young adults.2) Birth Control: People leave because their morals don't match the church. Church can change, or continue to lose people. Morality comes from people to religion, not from religion to people. People will find a religion whose teachings match thier morals.3) But poeple are less happy now. Is that from lowering morals?4) No, it is not from falling morals. It is from rising expectations. Chimps and other apes are plenty happy with what they have, until the see others having more. Since we're just apes, it is no surprise that we are unhappy despite our very high standard of living since our expectations are even higher.

True morality comes straight from God, and you won't find it in the mainstream as evident by the mainstreams willingness to bend to sin and the reprecussions that occur. Few will be saved, and the reminder of that is all around us, everyday.

[WrongWay 0]

As far as christianity lacking staying power, you and what army? Not even Satan can bring down the one true God. Christianity will never go away, it will always be a thorn in your side and a daily reminder of your sin.

Well, we were having a somewhat intelligent conversatin.... I must have touched at least one nerve to get you to wrap yourself this tightly in your dogma.2000 years and counting...Christiainity is not a thorn in my side because it reminds me of my sin... blah, blah, blah.It is a thorn in my side because it prevents us from having reasonable conversations:Why should we deny rights to someone just because they fell in love with someone that has the same reproductive organs as them? Because God says homosexuality is wrong.What is so magical about the moment of conception that defines that particular point in the reproductive process as the start of "person-hood"? Because God hates abortion.What is so wrong with masterbation or birth control? God is against it.Why abstainance until marriage? God demands it.Why not use human stem cells harvested from unwanted fetuses for scientific research? God is against it.Intelligent Design is not a scientificly supported theory, and therefore does not belong in science class. Too bad, you have to teach it.The war on drugs is destructive to our society and actually increases drug use by increasing the profits that pushers are making off of getting people addicted. Too bad, we must continue the war of drugs because God hates sin.Invading Iraq is just going to destabilize the middle east, creating new breading grounds for terrorists. God is on our side and wants Saddam Hussein out of power.

spew regurgitated liberal rhetoric that doesn't even come close to qualifying as original thought.

Oddly, 10 years ago I was considered a flaming conservative. I'm against gun control, favor limiting abortions to only the first 6-8 weeks after conception (before the heart starts beating), and hate the idea of affermative action. I think there are too many taxes, that we need serious Social Security reform, and I'm against socialized healthcare. I think environmentalism is largly a pile of crap... not that we need to change our ways, I just know that most of the rhetoric spewed by the "greens" is to rally the troops and collect donations.The fact that in the last 10 years, I've been changed from ultra conservative to untra liberal (without significant change in many of my opinions) shows just how far the evangelical movement has moved the border between the two sides.

True morality comes straight from God, and you won't find it in the mainstream as evident by the mainstreams willingness to bend to sin and the reprecussions that occur. Few will be saved, and the reminder of that is all around us, everyday.

Scottsman Fallacy..... Morality is morality. None is the "true" morality. Morality comes to religion from people, not the other way around....as evidenced by the large number of young adults that leave the Catholic Church and end up in a different religion that more closely matched their own morals.