Canadian Poker Players

[quixotic 0]

Hello everyone.Well the article I wrote on taxation is due to come out in the March issue of Canadian Poker Player. I am still waiting for my copies so to be honest I haven't seen it once I get it I will post the article for sure.Now I interviewed Time Cestnick for my article he writes regularly for the Globe and Mail. Tim is one of the most respected tax experts in Canada. Tim did a less compressive article than mine in Saturdays Globe I am posting a link I hope it works…https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/Art...04/STCESTNICK04Canadian Poker Player article should be released this week. So here it is.“In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.” Benjamin Franklin.Well Mr. Franklin you may be right about the first part, but when it comes to poker earnings, the certainty of taxes is well, not so certain. 2005 was a banner year for me; I turned a profit in my first year of play. Faced with the prospect of my 2005 tax preparation I found myself wondering if my profit was taxable. I know many Canadian poker players are wondering the same thing. I went to great lengths to find sound answers to my questions so I want to share what I have come across with all of you. Over the next five articles, I will look at a facet of poker that is important but most of us neglect, that is the business side of poker playing. In this article I will be looking solely at the tax implications attached to poker winnings, regardless of the amount you have won or lost I think you will find this a relevant read.After a few searches on Google and poker forums, I decided to go to the source and clicked my way to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) website. The bulletin that deals with gambling profits is named 334R2 (sounds like a riveting read I know) there are three sections that seemed relevant; windfalls, gambling profits, and profit from hobbies. After sifting through a plethora of legal tax jargon and thoroughly confusing, myself I decided to enlist the help of some great tax minds. Working in the financial services industry, I had no shortage of people to call. I managed to get Tim Cestnick on the phone. Tim is one of Canada’s most respected experts and public speakers in the area of tax and personal finance, his articles appear regularly in the Globe and Mail.The first and most obvious question I posed was how does Revenue Canada view poker winnings? “Revenue Canada has written some information; you might want to get a copy of interpretation bulletin 334R2,” Tim pointed out. With out knowing I had already read it. I really was hoping he could bring this down to a level I could understand. “334R2 talks about various sources of income and one of those sources it talks about is gambling profits. What it does say is that ‘an individual may be subject to tax.’ Normally the general rule of gambling and what we call windfall amounts (lottery winnings) are not normally taxable. But,” Cestnick explained, “that an individual may be subject to tax on income they get from gambling if the gambling activities constitute carrying on the business of gambling.” Finally I felt like I was getting somewhere!Cestnick argues that, “if you are considered to be in the business of gambling, then you are stuck, you have a problem.” (Now remember, don’t shoot the messenger.) If I am indeed in the ‘business of gambling’ then the profits are considered business income. Business income in Canada is of course taxable. So how would Revenue Canada determine if my poker playing is the business of gambling? A question Revenue Canada says ‘can only be determined when they look at all of the facts of the individual’s situation.’ No one factor is conclusive by itself but Revenue Canada considers; the degree of organization in pursuit of the activity (poker,) the existence of special knowledge, intention (are you playing poker merely for fun, or to gain your livelihood) and the extent of your poker activities including the number as well as frequency of your bets. This is not looking good, as I have been multi-tabling online for the better part of 2005. Number and frequency of bets, is the CRA serious? When Mr. Cestnick looks at those four criteria the thing that becomes obvious is that, anybody who is gambling regularly, is good at it, is making money and is trying to make money, could be argued that they are carrying on a business. So winnings will not be tax-free. Tim appeared to contradict the general sentiment among poker players, the chatter that I had come across. Among recreational poker players was that poker earnings were the same as lottery winnings. Tim asserts, “Basically you buy a lottery ticket and you win, that’s tax free, that’s a windfall. Gambling is almost more of a job, more of a business.” Ok Tim, that is clear. What I hear him saying is that if you win any amount the size of the dollar amount doesn’t matter so much. Tim went on to make things even more clear, “If you are winning any amount regularly, because you play regularly, that is really going to be considered a business.”So as a recreational player with a full time profession what are the chances that Revenue Canada would audit me? Tim’s words of caution are very resonating. “The reality is its still early in the game, so we haven’t seen how Revenue Canada will respond, yet. There are a few areas where Revenue Canada has in fact stepped up their audit procedures in recent years; jewelry stores, restaurants especially when it comes to the earnings servers as a lot of them in the past never reported their tips, so they are audited a lot. This could very well be the next industry that Revenue Canada decides they want to target, if the dollars are big enough and they think it is justified.” The reality is the chances of facing an audit might be slim now, but the possibility is there. With seven years to revisit your income tax filing that chance is greatly compounded.Although Mr. Cestnick provides a compelling argument, it is not the only opinion out there. I also contacted a much-respected local tax attorney. The attorney was of the ideology that an argument could be made in court that poker winnings should be considered a windfall and therefore not taxable. What I think is essential for all of us to do is to consult with a chartered accountant (CA). Be prepared to visit more than one CA to find a like-minded professional. You will want someone to defend your position, should it need defending. Make sure the CA can clearly explain the consequences of your actions and will put their name to your income tax submission. Keep in mind Revenue Canada has seven years to audit you. The last thing anyone would want to face is an audit you are ill prepared for. Tim Cestnick holds the following designations, CA, CPA, CFP, and TEP. I have to extend my utmost appreciation and respect for Tim’s time and wealth of knowledge. More information can be found on Tim at www.timcestnick.com.

[quixotic 0]

Can anyone confirm the link works?I linked a Globe Advisor site and am not sure it is public access.

[Vatche 0]

ya, the link works fine.

[quixotic 0]

cool thanks

[quixotic 0]

edited origional post with copy of CPP article

[chrozzo 19]

its too cold in Canada

[nritchi3 0]

Thanks for the article. Not too happy with the contents though.

[quixotic 0]

Thanks for the article. Not too happy with the contents though.

The contents or the implications?

[nritchi3 0]

The article was well written and informative. I just don't like to hear that the government can take a chunk of my winnings.

[quixotic 0]

The article was well written and informative. I just don't like to hear that the government can take a chunk of my winnings.

Haha ya thanks, and I wouldnt be too worried yet. The next article I am doing is hopefully going to help with what records too keep, that way should you get audited you can be armed with as many deductible expeneses as possible.

[bmwmcoupe 0]

I live in montreal and i play online poker for a living. I pay taxes on my earning but it is so hard for them to trace or to find out exactly how much i make. Neteller offers cashouts with a neteller debit card , so u are basically getting the money in cash. I payed taxes on 60k this year, basically the min to explain my lifestyle, condo, car, etc.. If i get audited they will never have access to poker accounts or my neteller accounts. Because poker is my only source of income my accountant says i dont have much choice but to pay .

[blueodum 0]

Just pay your taxes - what's the big deal.

[quixotic 0]

I live in montreal and i play online poker for a living. I pay taxes on my earning but it is so hard for them to trace or to find out exactly how much i make. Neteller offers cashouts with a neteller debit card , so u are basically getting the money in cash. I payed taxes on 60k this year, basically the min to explain my lifestyle, condo, car, etc.. If i get audited they will never have access to poker accounts or my neteller accounts. Because poker is my only source of income my accountant says i dont have much choice but to pay .

Kudos to you my friend you are far ahead of the curve. If the CRA really wanted access to your neteller information they could get it.

[bmwmcoupe 0]

Kudos to you my friend you are far ahead of the curve. If the CRA really wanted access to your neteller information they could get it.

WHat i do is that i deposit to my bank 1,100 a week annd the rest in cash, how would they have acess to neteller? how would they know i use neteller? and neteller is in no way obligated to give up my info?

[quixotic 0]

WHat i do is that i deposit to my bank 1,100 a week annd the rest in cash, how would they have acess to neteller? how would they know i use neteller? and neteller is in no way obligated to give up my info?

Maybe you are correct I really dont know, but neteller is linked to either your bank account or credit card...I am pretty certian that the CRA if preforming an audit can get access to this information. I am not saying an audit is likely I am just sayin

[bmwmcoupe 0]

Maybe you are correct I really dont know, but neteller is linked to either your bank account or credit card...I am pretty certian that the CRA if preforming an audit can get access to this information. I am not saying an audit is likely I am just sayin

i dont think neteller as any obligation to give out any of there clients information to the cra i mite be wrong tho

[Beerfly 0]

i dont think neteller as any obligation to give out any of there clients information to the cra i mite be wrong tho

I have a friend at the CRA and I called her to run this scenario by her....."They can get anything they want from anywhere". In a nutshell, they would have no problem getting your transaction history from Neteller. If they think you're avoiding taxes they have the rights to whatever they want. Be afraid.....

[blueodum 0]

Not saying beer fly is worng, but doesn't it depend on the tax treaty between Canada and Isle of Man? Not sure what the status of that is.

[Beerfly 0]

Not saying beer fly is worng, but doesn't it depend on the tax treaty between Canada and Isle of Man? Not sure what the status of that is.

Disclosure to Third Parties Other Than NETELLER Customers NETELLER will not sell or rent any of your personally identifiable information to third parties. NETELLER will not share any of your personally identifiable information with third parties except in the limited circumstances described below, or with your express permission. These third parties are limited by law or by contract from using the information for secondary purposes beyond the purposes for which the information is shared. We share information with companies that help us process the transactions you request and protect our customers' transactions from fraud, such as sharing your credit card number with a service that screens for lost and stolen card numbers. Additionally, if you go into a negative balance and owe us money, we may share information with processing companies including collection agencies. We disclose information that we in good faith believe is appropriate to cooperate in investigations of fraud or other illegal activity, or to conduct investigations of violations of our User Agreement. Specifically, this means that if we conduct a fraud investigation and conclude that one side has engaged in deceptive practices, we can give that person or entity's contact information (but not bank account or credit card information) to victims who request it. We disclose information in response to a subpoena, warrant, court order, levy, attachment, order of a court-appointed receiver or other comparable legal process, including subpoenas from private parties in a civil action. We disclose information to your agent or legal representative (such as the holder of a power of attorney that you grant, or a guardian appointed for you). As with any other business, it is possible that NETELLER in the future could merge with or be acquired by another company. If such an acquisition occurs, the successor company would have access to the information maintained by NETELLER, including customer account information, but would continue to be bound by this Privacy Policy unless and until it is amended as described in Section A above. We share your information with our parent, subsidiaries and joint ventures to help coordinate the services we provide to you, enforce our terms and conditions, and promote trust and safety.

[bmwmcoupe 0]

Disclosure to Third Parties Other Than NETELLER Customers NETELLER will not sell or rent any of your personally identifiable information to third parties. NETELLER will not share any of your personally identifiable information with third parties except in the limited circumstances described below, or with your express permission. These third parties are limited by law or by contract from using the information for secondary purposes beyond the purposes for which the information is shared. We share information with companies that help us process the transactions you request and protect our customers' transactions from fraud, such as sharing your credit card number with a service that screens for lost and stolen card numbers. Additionally, if you go into a negative balance and owe us money, we may share information with processing companies including collection agencies. We disclose information that we in good faith believe is appropriate to cooperate in investigations of fraud or other illegal activity, or to conduct investigations of violations of our User Agreement. Specifically, this means that if we conduct a fraud investigation and conclude that one side has engaged in deceptive practices, we can give that person or entity's contact information (but not bank account or credit card information) to victims who request it. We disclose information in response to a subpoena, warrant, court order, levy, attachment, order of a court-appointed receiver or other comparable legal process, including subpoenas from private parties in a civil action. We disclose information to your agent or legal representative (such as the holder of a power of attorney that you grant, or a guardian appointed for you). As with any other business, it is possible that NETELLER in the future could merge with or be acquired by another company. If such an acquisition occurs, the successor company would have access to the information maintained by NETELLER, including customer account information, but would continue to be bound by this Privacy Policy unless and until it is amended as described in Section A above. We share your information with our parent, subsidiaries and joint ventures to help coordinate the services we provide to you, enforce our terms and conditions, and promote trust and safety.

You have got me worried i will try and speak to my accountant i mite wanna declare more this year

[quixotic 0]

[tallguy 0]

currently doing my taxes. wasnt sure if my winnings are considered taxable income or not. decided to call canada revenue agency (1-800-959-8281). i explained i play on the internet and that poker is just a past time for me. also brought up the fact that lottery winnings do not have to be claimed as income. this person had to go and confer with others, assuming his supervisor, and came back to tell me that because i invest time to win this money it is considered work and therefore is taxable income which i would have to enter into line 130(other income).

[ff7bigfan 0]

Good article. It really is such a vague subject still, and one where there is a lack of knowledge, because like you said, they would have to look at your specific case to make a decision. I myself have called up technical interpretations, and not really got much more info than this.I look forward to reading your future articles.

[ff7bigfan 0]

currently doing my taxes. wasnt sure if my winnings are considered taxable income or not. decided to call canada revenue agency (1-800-959-8281). i explained i play on the internet and that poker is just a past time for me. also brought up the fact that lottery winnings do not have to be claimed as income. this person had to go and confer with others, assuming his supervisor, and came back to tell me that because i invest time to win this money it is considered work and therefore is taxable income which i would have to enter into line 130(other income).

I would take this advice with a grain of salt. The number you called up is general enquiries, and poker winnings are an area which do not necessarily have concrete set in stone rules to say yes they are, or no they are not, if you meet this specific bullet point. I would not expect your average person at general enquiries to know the correct answer for you as to whether or not it is taxable. I wouldn't expect a number of accountants to know. I'm a CA myself, and have had this discussion with many acquaintances and heard various answers. I would suggest visiting a CA that is knowledgeable about this, and discussing your situation first. If it is taxable, they can also give you an idea on what deductions would be appropriate to claim.

[gruven 530]

The article was well written and informative. I just don't like to hear that the government can take a chunk of my winnings.

The article was informative, and very timely and relevant subject matter. However, if you have any inkling to write professionally, or semi-professionally, even for a crappy rag like the CPT mag, then I suggest you invest some time into some grammar and structure lessons. There are numerous grammatical errors in the text, and the sentence structure is all over the map. Of course, the responsibility for this isn't all yours: the editor and copy editor should have caught most of that. Of course, it IS kelly kellner, so the fact that it's poorly managed is no surprise. On the whole though, very informative. It would have been interesting to add a legal perspective on it, perhaps someone knowledgeable with Canadian gaming law such as Michael Lipton. But kudos on doing some good research and providing some insight...