The Christian Poker Player

[anselm 0]

Can we get a mod to take care of this poker1.com troll please? Thanks.

[blueodum 0]

I'm going to chime in as someone who was raised a Christian and gave it up as a teenager.My impression, from everything I learned in school and from reading the Bible, was that a true Christian would have to live a simple life. In a sense, taking a vow of poverty would be a quintessentially Christian thing to do.Going to expensive restaurants, driving expensive cars, having expensive homes are all based on the pursuit of material pleasure. All that stuff seems to me to be against the spirit of Christianity, as it is hard to imagine Jesus doing all of these things or not commenting negatively if he saw his disciples doing these things.Sure it's possible for a good Christian to be wealthy, but I would think he/she would have to give away nearly all of his/her wealth to do good works. He/she would keep only what he/she needed to maintain a simple life, but no more.Now, of course, other people might interpret Christianity in a different way, but the "theme" that flows throughout the New Testament as I perceive it is to do good for those less fortunate and never to use wealth to pursue material pleasure.Sorry if this comes across as overly harsh. But this discord between some self-professed Christians and their lifestyle is one reason why I personally rejected organized religion. It seems to me that almost all religious people I've met twist their religion so that it fits into whatever lifestyle they've already chosen and are accustomed to.

[blackntan06 0]

Can we get a mod to take care of this poker1.com troll please? Thanks.

[Mercury69 3]

HiI'm not a "religious" person, per se. I do have a pretty good sense of spirituality and what kind of morals and ethics it takes to be, what I consider, a "good" person. That being said, I think it's important to point out that it's all about interpretation and application. As some have said, if poker is screwing up some important aspect of your life, you need to make adjustments. As in all things, moderation and compromise go a long way towards solving issues that affect us. There are far worse things than poker, so if OP's girlfriend cannot reconcile his poker playing, clearly a choice must be made. It's important to avoid making decisions that are good for others, but not good for you. It's important to resist being manipulated into making a decision for any reason. One must remember that you are not God's puppet. You are in control of your own actions and you will be accountable for them, somehow, good and bad. Do not be blinded by faith. Rather, let it illuminate your way so that you can clearly see and understand the decisions you must make.This response is much more serious than I thought it would be.

[DunkinDonuts 0]

Daniel's reply was well-thought-out, and it's clear that he's given the matter thought, which I think is the ultimate point of turning to the text.Just to clarify, I'm a loosely practicing Roman Catholic. Sometime in high school, I decided the tension between my faith and academics was too great to rely solely on text to justify my actions. This is why I have a hard time taking a definitive moral stance on issues. There are too many subjects on which I have limited information to make any conclusive judgments, but I don't view this as a bad thing.Anyway, the overarching theme that you can take from the selected verses and Daniel's response is that the Bible is subject to interpretation. My intention in playing devil's advocate is to address my concern that some people interpret the Bible with varying degrees of liberalness depending on what interpretation goes furthest in justifying conclusions that they have already reached. I think it is perfectly acceptable to use the Bible as a personal guide, as Daniel and the OP rightfully do. When the Bible is used as a moral compass, it serves as a steadying handrail, if you will, to keep a person focused on ideals that will generally allow him or her to peacefully coexist with others. Issues surrounding God aside, few would deny that the commands (or guidelines) set forth in the Bible lay the groundwork for order in society. In that respect, gambling, when done as a matter of personal choice with knowledge of the consequences, does not directly fly in the face of that groundwork for peaceful coexistence -- it is just another form of reasoned interaction.Where the conflict generally arises is whether one adopts the old-school approach that gambling emphasizes personal achievement over the quest to serve God. My primary concern in this debate is the disingenuousness of focusing on the early notions of a vengeful God to speak out against gays, abortion, and the like, while taking a more loosey-goosey approach to topics such as drinking, premarital sex, and gambling. That said, I do not believe that gambling is wrong ... not because I've found textual support that I can preach from my Biblical soapbox, but because it doesn't seem to contradict the broader lessons that I've taken from the Bible.DN + OP: You may feel differently, but to my mind you do not need to search through verses to determine whether gambling is O.K. in the eyes of God. The Bible seems to serve more purpose for all parties concerned when you take from it the basic Judeo-Christian principles of love and respect for your neighbors, and measure the wisdom of your actions by whether they can exist in line with those principles. I believe that a literal interpretation of early verse would leave little room for poker as a matter of individual achievement for the sake of individual achievement, in the face of much text diverting all personal motivations to the service of God and only God. However, I don't think the Bible was meant to be taken quite so literally. And quite frankly, I prefer to think of my God as accommodating enough to allow for the exercise of personal desires when they do not directly conflict with the more general concepts underlying the Bible. The key to my comfort-level with this liberal interpretation of the Bible is that I am consistent with it. In the same way that I do not flog myself for questionable sins that have little bearing on others, such as silently coveting my neighbor's ass (she has a nice one), I do not condemn those who live their lives in pursuit of activities on which the Bible is more ambiguous.I only ask that those who interpret the Bible to leave room for gambling also extend the same latitude for other gray areas. If gambling is gray, then perhaps there is much more than meets the eye that does not fall neatly on the side of black or white.

[Mattnxtc 0]

A common theme I have seen so far is that a good christian cannot be wealthy. Also there seemed to be some controversy over what it means to covet as you see that most of the verses shown in some way used covet. Coveting is not the same as enjoying money and making money. Coveting is more about worshipping/idolizing something. Thats why the same word, covet, is used in the 10 commandments when talkin about "coveting your neighbors wife"You can make money, you can enjoy money but there is a line when you start obsessing over money. When you are willing to do anything for money such as "sacrificing your life" to fulfill all those wants that we have. Those peopel who make 150k-200k a year but complain about now having enough money and so forth. Often youll see that as people begin to covet money they will start doing questionable business deals.As for a christians all being poor and what not. Yes we see that many in the bible didnt have money but we also see those who did. In Philippians, Paul thanks them for their donations towards his legal fees and living expenses and so forth. A christian can have money but he should also be willing to use it for good which i think we all woudl agree DN has done. Finally, look at what DN being a christian has done for this website. We have running threads in off topic specifically for christianity, We have discussions often in here about it and both sides usually can come together peacefully to discuss something that often you wouldnt think about when it comes to poker. From this aspect God is using DN for the purpose of spreading His Word and that is a very good thing

[Loismustdie 0]

Hey there. The answer to this one is easy: Nowhere in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is gambling forbidden. If your girlfriend can find one verse, just one, that clearly states that gambling and/or wagering is a sin (she won't be able to), then she would have a reason to be upset over your playing. As it is, she is falling into the trap that many Christians fall into of accepting man-made rules (the Catholic church, not the Bible, declared gambling sinful sometime in the 13th or 14th century) as scripture, rather than consulting the scriptures themselves.All the best, and I hope things work out with your girl.Leaf -

It's not that gambling is a sin. It's that it is an area where even the best,most well managed gambler has little control, meaning this- once you win some, you want to win more. You- and I- are driven to play at higher levels, and for bigger stakes and the smaller stakes are no longer enough. Then, when we lose we get angry, some times emotional and sometimes extremely, not balanced at all, these things uncontrolled can be devastating to a christians walk with God. When we win, we are on a high that few things in life can replace and I can say this- nothing I ever did involving church made me feel like that, ever, and the recapturing of that feeling, the feeling of being the best, the luckiest, that day, that tournament, whatever, the recapturing of that feeling becomes the number one drive in your life, and God no longer is. Not to mention, what is the number one reason we gamble? Money. We love it, we love winning it and just flat out aggressively jacking it from people that usually have no buisness doing what they are doing vs. us. That in itself becomes a drive all in itself, the drive for money. If money wasn't involved we wouldn't play. Gambling can very easily ruin your life and capture you heart, and that is what gives it the potential to be sinful. God put's it very simply- put anything before him, and it becomes a sin. That could be a woman, a car, a sports team, a job- it's not just exclusive to quote on quote bad things.

Actually there are a couple of references to homosexuality.One i forgot but i think it is in the old testiment somewhere....Corinthians 6Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

That's a new translation- there are very few places where God direclty addresses honosexuals, and it aint in that scripture. The term " homosexual offenders" was never in the original text but your churches think that you are all too stupid to comprehend, so they put that in there instead of what is really said. Offhand I can think of one scripture where he addresses homosexuals explicitly" Men with men, working that which is unseemly in the yes of God ." Got to be honest, though, this is one argument where I think Extreme Christians have gone too far- sin is sin, and it's as simple as that- it's not a reason in Jesus eyes to treat a person differently or with the hatred that some treat homosexuals.

If poker or gambling hurts ur own personal walk then its time to stop. If you begin to "live for poker" and its taken all ur time away from what u feel is more important then just walk away. I quit playin a little while ago b/c it was taking to much of my time up when i had much more important things to do. Its not a sin. What so many christians get caught up in are the varying forms of legalism. The forget that we are free from the Law. Its God's grace that set us free... just remember that and ull be fine. There are lines of course but for the most part dont let somebody tell u what u can and cant do...only God can do that

Free from the old law, bound to a new law. Don't forget that part.

[nutzbuster 7]

Hey poker.1Hi.Get a grip on your typing skills.Over the top shout out posts like yours only diminish your credibility.The irony is that you have now turned your very own message into one that is HYPO-CRY-TI-CAL, HOLI-ER, THAN, THOU, CON-DEMMING, & CON-DESC-END-INGIsn't it said that the meek shall inherit the earth?Peace.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Free from the old law, bound to a new law. Don't forget that part.

Yes but this new law is one centered around grace which is the freedom from the Old Laws. The Law purpose was to show everyone how to be righteous until the coming of Jesus. Galatians is a great read as we can see just how Paul reacts to the Judiazers that have come. They claim salvation through Jesus PLUS sticking to the law. Galatians is Pauls rebuttal to that situation in which he overemphasizes that the Law has used up its purpose now that Jesus has come

[HOUSTONRAISE 0]

I'm going to chime in as someone who was raised a Christian and gave it up as a teenager.My impression, from everything I learned in school and from reading the Bible, was that a true Christian would have to live a simple life. In a sense, taking a vow of poverty would be a quintessentially Christian thing to do.Going to expensive restaurants, driving expensive cars, having expensive homes are all based on the pursuit of material pleasure. All that stuff seems to me to be against the spirit of Christianity, as it is hard to imagine Jesus doing all of these things or not commenting negatively if he saw his disciples doing these things.Sure it's possible for a good Christian to be wealthy, but I would think he/she would have to give away nearly all of his/her wealth to do good works. He/she would keep only what he/she needed to maintain a simple life, but no more.Now, of course, other people might interpret Christianity in a different way, but the "theme" that flows throughout the New Testament as I perceive it is to do good for those less fortunate and never to use wealth to pursue material pleasure.Sorry if this comes across as overly harsh. But this discord between some self-professed Christians and their lifestyle is one reason why I personally rejected organized religion. It seems to me that almost all religious people I've met twist their religion so that it fits into whatever lifestyle they've already chosen and are accustomed to.

If as Christians we are the children of God and He loves us like His dear children, would not He want us to enjoy all the good things He has placed on this earth for us to enjoy. God wants us to have nice things. Think about heaven, the streets are made of gold and gates of pearls in Heaven. God is RICH God and we are His offspring. It is in our blood to desire to live as royalty. Embrace it, don't be scared of it. Do you not want your children to be successful, and live a full life, lacking no good thing? Does God love us any less? God owns everything, and it His pleasure to bless us. The key is that we must not seek these things directly. He must be first. His will must be first. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these other things shall be added unto you." How is the gospel going to be preached throughout all the world if Christians have no money? How we are going to be a blessing if we are not blessed? The Bible says that the "love of money is the root of all evil", not money. Money only magnifies what we already are, for good or for bad. Make no mistake about it, the devil wants you poor. He doesn't want to be of any use to the kingdom of God. Why would God only want the wicked to have the money, that just doesn't make sense. We are here to rule and to reign. Jesus Christ set us free from the power of death and darkness. He said He came so what we could have life and have it in abundance. We are called to use this freedom to love and serve others being a witness for Jesus and what He has done for us. We can have all want, as long as these "things" don't have us, and we are using all for God's glory and to expand His kingdom.

[nutzbuster 7]

I am a deeply private believer. I am repulsed by the loud, in your face types who do nothing but turn people off.While I am completely flawed in many ways (sarcastic, sick sense of humor, etc.), I always remember one of the most powerful things I'd ever heard many years ago. Some may find it overly simple, but there is no denying it's profound and pure meaning.It happened to the Dali Lama, not sure which one or even when, but it doesn't matter. And I'm not sure about the accuracy of the story really but it is the message that matters most. This is how I remember itThe interviewer asked him "what exactly is your base of belief, what is your religion?".The Dali Lama respopnded with"Religion? Kindness is my religion. Life is Gods gift to me. How I live it is my gift to him".This blew me away, so simple yet so very powerful, and a mental note that I've had with me ever since.Not sure if this post is relevant to this thread but I thought I'd share anyway.Peace!

[Balloon guy 158]

In regards to the original poster I would refer you to Romans.Two very important points I feel are central for a personal walk with God.one: IF a man considers something to be sin, then to him it is sin ( roughly quoted )Your cultural, personal and world view can make something sinful for you, that may not be sinful to others. ie drinking beer after church, common in Europe, not so in USAtwo: All things are lawful, but I will not be made a slave to anything, tied in with, I will not do anything that causes my brother to stumble.Both these points remind us that there is great freedom in Christ, but that freedom isn't liberty to flaunt things upon 'weaker' brothers. I smoke Cigars, alot. But I recocnize others sometimes think it's wrong, so I don't smoke in front of them. I tell them I do, and never hide it, but I don't shove it in their face when we are golfin etc.If you're GF feels poker is a sin, you need to decide if you are right in continueing in a practise that is causing your sister to stumble? or is she just being judgmental? Have an adult conversation and find out where she is coming from.Incedently, if you are not able to give up poker for God, then poker is your god.

[Loismustdie 0]

Yes but this new law is one centered around grace which is the freedom from the Old Laws. The Law purpose was to show everyone how to be righteous until the coming of Jesus. Galatians is a great read as we can see just how Paul reacts to the Judiazers that have come. They claim salvation through Jesus PLUS sticking to the law. Galatians is Pauls rebuttal to that situation in which he overemphasizes that the Law has used up its purpose now that Jesus has come

New law still has rules and guidlines which need to followed, saved by grace or not. It's purpose? Show people how to be right with God until Jesus comes back. Thi fight to live as close to christlike as possible does not stop when you are saved- it's only a starting point, and you can fall from grace. How easily? That's up to God. Paul was speaking of the Old law, Jesus brought wiyth him a New Law, legalities and all. You know what I think of when I think of of the term legalistic? That's just a person who chooses not to listen to ALL of God's laws, just what they believe applies. Which is not a the way of Christian at all.

I am a deeply private believer. I am repulsed by the loud, in your face types who do nothing but turn people off.While I am completely flawed in many ways (sarcastic, sick sense of humor, etc.), I always remember one of the most powerful things I'd ever heard many years ago. Some may find it overly simple, but there is no denying it's profound and pure meaning.It happened to the Dali Lama, not sure which one or even when, but it doesn't matter. And I'm not sure about the accuracy of the story really but it is the message that matters most. This is how I remember itThe interviewer asked him "what exactly is your base of belief, what is your religion?".The Dali Lama respopnded with"Religion? Kindness is my religion. Life is Gods gift to me. How I live it is my gift to him".This blew me away, so simple yet so very powerful, and a mental note that I've had with me ever since.Not sure if this post is relevant to this thread but I thought I'd share anyway.Peace!

For the record once again, I cannot stand religion.

If as Christians we are the children of God and He loves us like His dear children, would not He want us to enjoy all the good things He has placed on this earth for us to enjoy. God wants us to have nice things. Think about heaven, the streets are made of gold and gates of pearls in Heaven. God is RICH God and we are His offspring. It is in our blood to desire to live as royalty. Embrace it, don't be scared of it. Do you not want your children to be successful, and live a full life, lacking no good thing? Does God love us any less? God owns everything, and it His pleasure to bless us. The key is that we must not seek these things directly. He must be first. His will must be first. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these other things shall be added unto you." How is the gospel going to be preached throughout all the world if Christians have no money? How we are going to be a blessing if we are not blessed? The Bible says that the "love of money is the root of all evil", not money. Money only magnifies what we already are, for good or for bad. Make no mistake about it, the devil wants you poor. He doesn't want to be of any use to the kingdom of God. Why would God only want the wicked to have the money, that just doesn't make sense. We are here to rule and to reign. Jesus Christ set us free from the power of death and darkness. He said He came so what we could have life and have it in abundance. We are called to use this freedom to love and serve others being a witness for Jesus and what He has done for us. We can have all want, as long as these "things" don't have us, and we are using all for God's glory and to expand His kingdom.

The devil wants you to be whatever it is that would keep you from God. To say the devil wantes you poor is just as blind as can possibly be. See the las sttement that I made about religion. Jesus did say he wanted us to have life and in abundance- life here or in heaven? Hmmmm.... gee, let me think, what would he have been talkimng about?

[turd ferguson 1]

You guys need to relax. I'm sure God doesn't care anyway.

[loogie 115]

You weren't tall enough to play Division III basketball?I thought those rims were only 8'.

[blueodum 0]

If as Christians we are the children of God and He loves us like His dear children, would not He want us to enjoy all the good things He has placed on this earth for us to enjoy. God wants us to have nice things. Think about heaven, the streets are made of gold and gates of pearls in Heaven. God is RICH God and we are His offspring. It is in our blood to desire to live as royalty. Embrace it, don't be scared of it. Do you not want your children to be successful, and live a full life, lacking no good thing? Does God love us any less? God owns everything, and it His pleasure to bless us. The key is that we must not seek these things directly. He must be first. His will must be first. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these other things shall be added unto you." How is the gospel going to be preached throughout all the world if Christians have no money? How we are going to be a blessing if we are not blessed? The Bible says that the "love of money is the root of all evil", not money. Money only magnifies what we already are, for good or for bad. Make no mistake about it, the devil wants you poor. He doesn't want to be of any use to the kingdom of God. Why would God only want the wicked to have the money, that just doesn't make sense. We are here to rule and to reign. Jesus Christ set us free from the power of death and darkness. He said He came so what we could have life and have it in abundance. We are called to use this freedom to love and serve others being a witness for Jesus and what He has done for us. We can have all want, as long as these "things" don't have us, and we are using all for God's glory and to expand His kingdom.Jesus would probably say that it is good to be wealthy, provided you use this wealth to do God's work.In practice, how many people's prime motivation for accumulating wealth in our society is to do God's work? A very small percentage. Overwhelmingly, our society is materialistic and people pursue wealth for material pleasure and as a tool to hold power over others. To think otherwise is to be blind to what is going on. Sure there are exceptional people who dedicate most of their income to good works, but these are few and far between and sometimes their motivations (which is what really counts) are suspect.Sorry, but I've seen people justify everything they do with God this and Jesus that and I have a natural mistrust of people who talk openly about how devout they are while flaunting their wealth at the same time.

[Izzy 0]

The only scripture that people may interpert as Jesus saying that gambling was wrong, was when they turned the church into a marketplace. Also, gambling in the church and making a mockery of it.

If I had a nickel for every gambling event sponsored by churches and/or held in church basements (e.g. grandma's bingo night), well, I'd have a bankroll big enough to take on Andy Beal myself.

[*Lone*Trout* 0]

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24

The 'eye of the needle' is another term for the 'needle gate'. The walled city of Jerusalem closed it's doors at night. The needle gate was used for anyone coming in after dark. But it was a narrow and small passage. A person coming through would first have to take the entire load off the camel, walk it through the needle gate numerous times, and then put the camel on it's knees and push from behind to squeeze it through the opening. This practice ensured that the 'needle gate' could not be used for large scale military attacks at night. Thought I'd clarify this verse.*L*T*

[turd ferguson 1]

The 'eye of the needle' is another term for the 'needle gate'. The walled city of Jerusalem closed it's doors at night. The needle gate was used for anyone coming in after dark. But it was a narrow and small passage. A person coming through would first have to take the entire load off the camel, walk it through the needle gate numerous times, and then put the camel on it's knees and push from behind to squeeze it through the opening. This practice ensured that the 'needle gate' could not be used for large scale military attacks at night. Thought I'd clarify this verse.*L*T*

Religion is a joke. Exhibit A^^^

[Loismustdie 0]

The 'eye of the needle' is another term for the 'needle gate'. The walled city of Jerusalem closed it's doors at night. The needle gate was used for anyone coming in after dark. But it was a narrow and small passage. A person coming through would first have to take the entire load off the camel, walk it through the needle gate numerous times, and then put the camel on it's knees and push from behind to squeeze it through the opening. This practice ensured that the 'needle gate' could not be used for large scale military attacks at night. Thought I'd clarify this verse.*L*T*

Wrong. Then it would just have said needlegate. A needle has an eye, that's the opening in which you slip string through, a needlegate had no part reffered to as a n eye. The fact is that it is hard to have alot of money and not give in to various temptations, plain and simple. That's easy enough to see and understand.

[killer 0]

If I felt like He ever asked me to stop playing, I would without any fuss.

*******************************That's a pretty sweet deal there...cause...you're just NOT gonna get that phone call!!!

[loogie 115]

I need a needle, a camel, and a blender, STAT!

[ShakeZuma 585]

I always lose at poker.Is that God's way of telling me I shouldn't play?

[MasterLJ 0]

This, in now way conflicts with playing poker as a means of employment. What you do with your money, now that's different. As far as refusing labour, poker is a job to many. Once again, this doesn't relate at all to the idea that playing poker to earn your living is wrong. It says that money shouldn't be what you are working for. This would be true of a lawyer, banker, doctor, or whatever. If your goal is money, that is the sin. If you play poker to earn money, and then use that money for good, that is a different story entirely. Ahh... I know this one. It scared the begeebies out of me when I first read it. Since it's impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, I figured I was doomed, lol! Then it was explained to me, that the "eye of a needle" was what they called the entrance to castles where a camel would have to STRUGGLE to get under it and into the castle. That makes perfect sense. If you are rich, there is more risk of being sinful. There is more tempation, and A LOT more pressure. If you are doing WHATEVER you are doing for a living, for the love of money, than that is a sinful way to be. That has little to do with your choice in profession. If I play basketball and want to be in the NBA so that I could be rich and famous and keep it all for myself... that's a problem. How about the NBA player who loves God, loves his family, loves children, and uses his position to help others? Or, how about the POKER PLAYER who loves God, loves his family, loves children, and uses the money he earns to better other people's lives? How could the fact that he earned it playing poker be deemed sinful based on any of the scripture you provided? In closing, I want to say that I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to look through scripture to find these verses. They are all very powerful, and very meaningful. However, I stand firm on the fact that none of the verses do a good job of condeming gambling for a living. Or, better yet, being a stock trader.

Without being downright antagonistic I must say that you seem to justify these scripture quotes in ways that are most beneficial and accepting to you. It's really a chicken or the egg type philosophy. Are you justifying, or you subjectively interpretting scripture? I think it's the former.Jesus was a poor carpenter. I don't even need to bust out the scripture on how adamant the Bible is on following in his footsteps.

[HOUSTONRAISE 0]

Without being downright antagonistic I must say that you seem to justify these scripture quotes in ways that are most beneficial and accepting to you. It's really a chicken or the egg type philosophy. Are you justifying, or you subjectively interpretting scripture? I think it's the former.Jesus was a poor carpenter. I don't even need to bust out the scripture on how adamant the Bible is on following in his footsteps.

where does it say Jesus was poor? they had a treasurer(Judas) for goodness sakes.