No_Neck 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I know exactly what Daniel thinks of Men. I've talked to Daniel about Russ Hamilton(WSOP ME 94[?]), too. And Russ Georgiev.But that's not nearly half the big name pro's.yeah it is funny how people think that cheating isn't going to happen, there is millions at stake, of course people are going to try and cheat. Link to post Share on other sites
loogie 115 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 This is crazy. There's only one Zee Justin. I've seen his birth certificate. Link to post Share on other sites
Ouch-8s 4 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 And I don't think discussing the hand with players, is cheating, per se. But it's unethical. In all honesty, I've asked people who were railing me, what they thought of a particular situation. It doesn't mean I've taken their advice all of the time--though I have. I think, in of itself, it's unethical, but it's not necessarily cheating.Maybe. I might agree with that grey area.I think discussing a hand while it's in progress is just a reality of online poker--it's going to happen and I think people are just going to have to learn to deal with it.Doesn't make it right. It is at least unethical. Sometimes my GF, who is just learning how to play on beginner play money tables, asks me what she should do. By helping (during a specific hand), I'm giving her an unfair advantage over the other beginners.I think that behavior is worlds away from registerring different accounts, though. When discussing a hand turns into coordinating your play with others, I think that's cheating. "I'm gonna raise, if he calls, you push.." and so on.100% agree.note: post above re-arranged for reply simplicity... Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Doesn't make it right. It is at least unethical. Sometimes my GF, who is just learning how to play on beginner play money tables, asks me what she should do. By helping (during a specific hand), I'm giving her an unfair advantage over the other beginners.100% agree.I don't think raping someone's blinds who's been disconnected is ethical, but that happens all the time. It's an unfair advantage if you have a good connection and they don't. I'm not saying it's right, it's certainly unethical. Do I feel bad about having done it? No. Do I think that makes me a bad person? No. Have I been asked to collude in those situations? Yes. Have I colluded in those situations? No--and it's probably been to my detriment. I've had offers to collude at 1/2 NL live, 3/6 LHE live, 2/5 NL live, 10 dollar buy in tourneys, 50 dollar buy in tourneys, anything you could think of really-- I've never done it. Have I discussed hands via AIM/MSN while in the middle of them, or while someone else has been? Yes, and I haven't thought twice.Maybe a cheater's a cheater--maybe I'm as bad as Zee Justin. But I think the difference between taking someone's advice and using multiple accounts is huge. But I sleep just fine at night--and I couldn't if I was cheating for a living. Link to post Share on other sites
yeffy 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 And there are plenty of ways to distribute the funds.For the tournament that he placed, bump everyone up one spot in the prize pool payout. Second is first, third second, and so on.One problem, they only took $100,000 from him. That accounts for less than the ammount that he won in 1 Party tournament. He has a $110,000 win for a 1st there as well as many many other wins all of which are now fraudulent.For all those above who argued "he won this money playing SNG's" a major bullshit! He has one far more than this ammount in MTT's he just cashed that money out. Perhaps the particular 100K they took came from STT but he has well over 100K in MTT wins. Link to post Share on other sites
bocablkr 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I do think it's an advantage to have multiple accounts in a big tournament. There are only so many chances at the huge cashes, so having 5 chances at that huge cash is big. You can also play conservatively on a couple to try and make the money, and superaggressively on a couple to try to build a huge stack towards the final table. Plus, you can watch more players to get reads on other people.It's not a huge advantage, but I think it's enough of an advantage, and it's unethical, which makes it illegal. It's one of those things where I can't really explain why it's illegal, it just is.Did you see this:I think most people are not aware of the main advantage of having multiple accounts besides the obvious ones of chip dumping and seeing more than one set of holes cards if you are at the same table.It is called Kamikaze accounts. If you are one of the top pros in these events who do you fear the most - other pros. If you can eliminate them, then your EV goes way up. It would be easy for you to beat a tournament full of amateurs.So what do you do - you wait until one of your kamikaze accounts is seated at a table with a known pro. Then, when the opportunity is there to bust them on a coin flip, you take it. You would normally never risk your only entry on a coin flip at this point but since you have kamikaze accounts, go for it. If it fails, you still have accounts left. But if it succeeds, you have doubled up as well as taking out a main competitor. Then you can use him to take out more pros until finally chip dumping to yourself at the end. Pretty slick and totally immoral in my book. Always wondered how so many of the top online pros listed in Pocketfives rankings always got to the Final Table in so many events - it just seemed unreal. And it would be if they all had single accounts. Link to post Share on other sites
yeffy 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Ask DN what he thinks of Men... it's not just me. There was a long post on RPG by DN describing very similar behavior by Men. Maybe you will believe him.Yes Men had unscrupulous behavior 6 years ago when Daniel made those posts. And this accounts for half of all big name pros being cheaters?? nice handIt is well known that Men "the Master" is a cheat, the reason they flip the cards over in all-in situations during a tourney was because of Men.Actually this goes back to a player who's name I can't remember heads up at a final table where he was in contention for the 'best all-around player award' for the tourney. The award was a car worth more than 1st place in this one individual event so the guy basically bought out his opponent so he could win the award.Men was accused of having his horses bring him chips during breaks, softplaying him, a signal sending incident at the Taj, and a few others. But it isn't "well known" that the all-in exposed hand rule is directly due to him. Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 One problem, they only took $100,000 from him. That accounts for less than the ammount that he won in 1 Party tournament. He has a $110,000 win for a 1st there as well as many many other wins all of which are now fraudulent.For all those above who argued "he won this money playing SNG's" a major bullshit! He has one far more than this ammount in MTT's he just cashed that money out. Perhaps the particular 100K they took came from STT but he has well over 100K in MTT wins.I was under the impression that it was from a specific tournament cash...If not, probably the only thing that you can do is distribute it into the prize pool of those where he's recently participated in (you'd have to set an arbitrary cutoff date).Sure - each person who was in the pay would probably only benefit a small amount. But realistically, the fraud only accounts for a small loss to each individual. If he won X number of dollars, only a small fraction of it is attributable to an edge that he may have gained from having multiple accounts. I dont know how much. But i guess the 100k will have to do. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Before I get ten of you up my ass about how I'm a cheater, I want to be very clear about the nature of these IM conversations that happen mid-hand.."Hey, buddy..what's up?""In the 10k guarantee on FT""Cool..I'll rail..""Word."5 Minutes Pass.."Awe ****..That dickhead who's been pushing every hand just check/raised me all in.""You gonna call?""I've got middle pair, I think it might be good..and he's givin' me 4-1""I probably call.""Yeah, I think I have to." Link to post Share on other sites
Ouch-8s 4 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I don't think raping someone's blinds who's been disconnected is ethical, but that happens all the time. It's an unfair advantage if you have a good connection and they don't. I'm not saying it's right, it's certainly unethical. Do I feel bad about having done it? No. Do I think that makes me a bad person? No. Have I been asked to collude in those situations? Yes. Have I colluded in those situations? No--and it's probably been to my detriment. I've had offers to collude at 1/2 NL live, 3/6 LHE live, 2/5 NL live, 10 dollar buy in tourneys, 50 dollar buy in tourneys, anything you could think of really-- I've never done it. Have I discussed hands via AIM/MSN while in the middle of them, or while someone else has been? Yes, and I haven't thought twice.Maybe a cheater's a cheater--maybe I'm as bad as Zee Justin. But I think the difference between taking someone's advice and using multiple accounts is huge. But I sleep just fine at night--and I couldn't if I was cheating for a living.I don't think we disagree.Maybe the MSN chat (with railbirds, not sitting players) is just one way online poker is different than live, just like not being able to see the other player is different. and like "involuntary" disconnections (as opposed to "voluntary" bathroom breaks) are part of online poker life. For that matter, if there is all-in protection, "voluntary' disconnections are part of online poker too (you don't see anyone saying live - "I'm going to the bathroom; treat me like I'm all-in"). The game is flat out different in many ways, and maybe one of those is that it is okay to ask your roommate/railbird/phone-a-friend for advice. Before I get ten of you up my ass about how I'm a cheater, I want to be very clear about the nature of these IM conversations that happen mid-hand..<snip>And to be clear, that is what I thought you meant. Link to post Share on other sites
rookie2619 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I thought ZJ was a legit winner. I never opened up multiple accounts, why would I? Only if I wanted to cheat somehow. What a disgrace he turned out to be. & to think he tried justifying it. You can play multiple tables by using the same account, only a CHEATER would open up different accounts. & some of u guys are defending him??? What a joke this young "pro" turned out to be. Link to post Share on other sites
Figger 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Before I get ten of you up my ass about how I'm a cheater, I want to be very clear about the nature of these IM conversations that happen mid-hand.."Hey, buddy..what's up?""In the 10k guarantee on FT""Cool..I'll rail..""Word."5 Minutes Pass.."Awe ****..That dickhead who's been pushing every hand just check/raised me all in.""You gonna call?""I've got middle pair, I think it might be good..and he's givin' me 4-1""I probably call.""Yeah, I think I have to."Now you know you would like double that up your ass and as far as the conversation goes...who were you IM'ing...Harrington or Paris Hilton? Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 And there's no ****in' Santa Claus either! Link to post Share on other sites
Alex916F 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I have to agree with all of the ppl saying Zee is a cheat and dispicable. Anyone who chooses to defend him or any other online pro that does this is brain-dead. I haven't been playing online for awhile but was debating whether to get back into it specifically for the MTT. I am now convinced live play is by far the best, safest (in regards to $), and truest form of poker. I respect PP and any other online poker room that diligently search for multi-accounting. Distributing the money properly would be a difficult task. Possibly a freeroll? maybe that would bring the fugitive cheaters out still. Distribute the money to all the entrants? Like smash said 1 dollar to each person is hardly compensation. The idea of bumping everyone in the tournies in question is an interesting one but i wouldnt be surprised if the 100k didnt cover all of the tournies. I would love to hear what DN thinks of this and what steps FCP is taking to make sure this isnt happening. I wouldn't mind hearing what he thinks are proper online ethics just like IMing a friend in the middle of a hand whether to call or not. I know in my cardroom i go to it specifically says to have only one person to a hand i.e. dont give ppl suggestions about their hand. Link to post Share on other sites
scottyno 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 if there is someone with 5 accounts sitting at my table, yes. if it's someone with 5 accounts spread out among 500 tables, not really. it's just like someone having 5 lottery tickets to my 1, and he paid for all 5.what do you do then if 2 of them end up at same table, which eventually will happen if you do this over enough tournaments. Also, knowing that you have multiple accounts allows you to play differently than everyone else and force the action and be able to take races early and try to accumulate chips because you know if you bust out you can just move on to your next one without much lost, $200 or whatever the entry is isn't much to the top online pros that play all the big buy in events every week so they can easily afford multiple buy ins Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I would much rather have his ~600,000 per year salary then be you for the rest of my life. I doubt you play in any big tournies so your writing b/c you have no life. Am I correct in that assumption? Stick to your $1 buy-ins and get over it. You sir, win the micro donk of the year award. Good luck with not commiting suicide.The sorry truth is that online poker and cheating go hand in hand. I won't play mid-limits or big tournys online for that very reason. When I was in undergrad, people in my fraternity used to play in the same cash games and IM each other info. It's disgusting, but the norm. The fact that the most high profile online players are getting caught should tell you everything you need to know. The players who go straight up are the ones deviating from the norm; not the other way around. BTW, I doubt ZeeJustin will be affected by this at all. He made most of his money in SNG and in a week he will have a new IP address and will be raking in money. I think the guy is a moron for doing what he did, but that's none of my buisness. I have my own life to deal with rather than talking about someone who using 6 accounts in one tourney.lol dude. you nailed me like a hammer. RIGHT ON THE HEAD!How'd you do that? I want to incorporate your 'online reading skills' into my own online game.hopefully then i'll be able to turn pro and make millions.one day!- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
scottyno 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 Fairly certain that they redistributed the money. Xzanos bubbled the tourney that JJProdigy won, and he was credited with being the first one out in the money.they gave away the 140k that JJ won in the tourney. To the best of my knowledge they have not done anything with the 40k they confiscated from his "JJ Prodigy" account, and the zee justin money I think its too early for them to have determined what they're going to do. I think they should have a bunch of big "cheaters should die" freerolls and give most of the money back to the players since it was there to begin with Link to post Share on other sites
Kangaroo 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 i got here late so everythings been prettty much said. i'll summarize.multiaccounting mtts = against terms and conditions = cheatingcheating = bad = taking peoples money ($140 ****ing grand) = disrespect = exactly what zeejustin should get.there's only one johnnybax bitch! Link to post Share on other sites
bombsaway 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 there's only one johnnybax bitch!Yea, but how many grandmothers does he have? Link to post Share on other sites
thrillsoft 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 This is getting ridiculous. Everyone, get over yourselves. There is alot of jealousy that is fueling this thread. Your not as good as ZJ; you never will make as much money as him. Deal with it and move on. I don't care what he did and whether it is considered cheating. It is irrelevant; it has not affected the majority of the members of FCP. That is the price you pay for playing online. Like ElDiablo stated in 2+2, you have to figure cheating into your long term EV. Work on your game and stop obsessing over what some 20 year old did at PP. Or maybe a better idea is to get a life instead of jocking a kid who can't even drink yet. If you were somehow affected by ZJ's actions, I just don't don't see how. He made his money at SNG and you can't have two players from the same IP address sit in the same SNG or cash game. Stop kicking a kid when he is down and GET A LIFE or learn to play poker. Peace out and stay in school. This is bull. It has effected ANYONE who has played one of these big tourneys. I played in the Party Jet Promo Tourney and was on the bubble with an average stack (there were three knockouts left before the money). I had pocket QQ's and the guy sitting next to me who also had about an average stack raise it up before me and I went all in (about 18 BB's). He called with 55 and spiked a 5 on the flop. I thought "How the hell could somebody do that in this position?" but if it was someone with multiple accounts the others of which were already big stacks and he was just using this one to try and knock people out or go bust building it to a larger stack then it makes perfect sense.There are MANY strategic advantages to having multiple accounts in the same tourney, even if you don't chip dump or collude (which I don't buy for a minute that he didn't do). He says that when his multiple accounts were sitting at the same table he would "open up several other SNG's" to confuse himself. What BS!!! He's ACTIVELY CHEATING anyway. Why draw the line there? He was in it for the money and to get as much as he could. You think he's not going to use the BIGGEST advantage of multi-accounting when the opportunity arises? WAKE UP! He's a cheater! That's what he does! Link to post Share on other sites
Kangaroo 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I think the biggest problem with these guys is that they got caught cheating and they got their money taken away. so what? Now I know to alot of you 100k and up is going to seem huge as it does to me but these guys have defrauded the site and all thats happening is having the money in their account taken. no legal action no repurcussions. What annoys me is that they then have the nerve to say its not fair they took my money and that pp is greedy wtf! I earnt that before I cheated they say. To these guys I say if you cheat in these tournaments prepare to face the repurcussions and after the examples made of JJ and ZJ Im quite sure that anyone cheating in the future wont be keeping such extravagant amounts of cash in their accounts. So whats stopping them? nothing. These guys will continue to cheat. ZJ said it himself, he's too greedy. It certainly makes me question online poker I know its possible but It's making me think of just taking my roll and playing live.quite simply in my honest opinion, these kids aren't losing enough when they get caught, they're losing money they'll soon have back and it just discredits online poker. Example? look at JJ he lost that 180k or so days later he final tabled the 200k on ft. Link to post Share on other sites
bombsaway 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Yea, but how many grandmothers does he have?Bump. I really need to know this. I'm making JohnnyBax a ceramic coffee mug, with his picture on it, and was hoping I could re-fab the coffee mug to give to his grandparents, who must admire him as much as I.I found something for Zee, too. Let me know what you guys think: Link to post Share on other sites
Alex916F 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I think the biggest problem with these guys is that they got caught cheating and they got their money taken away. so what? Now I know to alot of you 100k and up is going to seem huge as it does to me but these guys have defrauded the site and all thats happening is having the money in their account taken. no legal action no repurcussions. What annoys me is that they then have the nerve to say its not fair they took my money and that pp is greedy wtf! I earnt that before I cheated they say. I dont know if legal action is the answer. If they were to pursue the matter in a court i could easily see a can of worms being opened up and soon online poker would no longer exist. Though all of this proves there is wide spread cheating, people should still have the opportunity to play it. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 www.PARTYPOKER.comIf your goal is to make money playing poker, PartyPoker is in my opinion the best site around. Party often has over 50,000 players online at a time, which means it will never be hard to find a game. Party also has more fish than any of the other popular sites out there which means the games are very profitable. There are some downsides, however. The software isn't the prettiest, and the customer support could use a lot of work. Neither of these issues should ever get in the way of your ability to make tons of money. Bonuses: When you make your account, enter the Bonus Code JustinB and you will get a 20% deposit bonus. If you deposit $500, you will get the max bonus of $100 for free!LMAO Link to post Share on other sites
Kangaroo 0 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I dont know if legal action is the answer. If they were to pursue the matter in a court i could easily see a can of worms being opened up and soon online poker would no longer exist. Though all of this proves there is wide spread cheating, people should still have the opportunity to play it.yes I agree, but I still think the punishment isn't hurting tese douchebags enough. Link to post Share on other sites
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