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First post for me here and not sure how to transfer my online data to the forum (any help with this would be appreciated).Playing 1/2 NL. I am dealt KK in middle position and raise to $7. Only caller is a late position player that just sat down two hands ago. So no read on him.Flop comes AA8 rainbow. I do a continuation pot size bet ($15). He raises another $15 and I reraise it another $15 to see if he is serious or just trying to get information on me. He then shoves all-in for another $138. I go into the tank and lay it down.At first I was happy with the play but an hour later I saw him shove all in with top pair on a 3 suited flop when neither of his hold cards were that suit. He was busted out by someone who flopped a set. Now I know i go this information later but curious if I should of done something different. Did he really have an Ace? Would a check raise of cost me less to get the same information?

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First post for me here and not sure how to transfer my online data to the forum (any help with this would be appreciated).Playing 1/2 NL. I am dealt KK in middle position and raise to $7. Only caller is a late position player that just sat down two hands ago. So no read on him.Flop comes AA8 rainbow. I do a continuation pot size bet ($15). He raises another $15  and I reraise it another $15 to see if he is serious or just trying to get information on me. He then shoves all-in for another $138. I go into the tank and lay it down.At first I was happy with the play but an hour later I saw him shove all in with top pair on a 3 suited flop when neither of his hold cards were that suit. He was busted out by someone who flopped a set.  Now I know i go this information later but curious if I should of done something different. Did he really have an Ace? Would a check raise of cost me less to get the same information?
To convert hand histories from online, see the forum sticky. To your question....I think you played it fine...seems pretty likely that he had an Ace. Especially since it appears that you didn't really have a solid read on the player. Later, you picked up some things on him, so there is no use trying to go back and worry about that play, just remember that guy for a later date, perhaps.
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To convert hand histories from online, see the forum sticky. To your question....I think you played it fine...seems pretty likely that he had an Ace. Especially since it appears that you didn't really have a solid read on the player. Later, you picked up some things on him, so there is no use trying to go back and worry about that play, just remember that guy for a later date, perhaps.
you made the best decision based on the information you had at the time. I'm telling you, min raises are the devil! He most likely held Ace small. Your bet on the flop was fine, his min raise sends off fireworks. I like the re-raise to see where he's at, but when he pushes it's a lay down.
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I like the bet on the flop. However I'd just call the raise and re-evaluate on the turn. This is a tough spot for Kings, but they are often ahead. Two aces on the flop are more favorable than one ace. There is no standard play in this spot, you have to go with your gut feeling. If your gut says fold, then thats fine. That is certainly acceptable when you have no reads to work with.But if you have a nagging suspicion that he doesn't have it then don't be scared to play your hand strong.

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I think he has 88 here. The way-over-the-top push after you put in the reraise says that he likes his hand almost unconditionally (barring you having AA) and his hoping that you call with an A (which you may have had given your reraise) probably made up his mind to push. Good fold.

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And no one said anything about min-raising a min-raise?
theres that.and theres putting in the third bet "to find out where you're at." I feel that, some how, you should have figured this out sooner.
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theres that.and theres putting in the third bet "to find out where you're at." I feel that, some how, you should have figured this out sooner.
Hmm, so you're nutriding every post of mine? What is he finding out from the min-raise? That he looks very weak and he's practically begging someone to push all in over the top?He needs to fold to the min-raise or put in a respectable raise--to say, 50-- to really find out where he's at(though with no mention of stack sizes this is hard to say). From a metagame standpoint, all the min-raise says is, "I know you'll fold to any other bet I make if you don't come over the top hard and show real strength here."Re-minraising is stupid. You learn nothing. What if he re-minraises it right back? You probably have to just call after 'capping it' at four bets. What's your action on the turn, OOP mind you, if he just calls? You gonna check/fold? Are you going to lead a blanked turn? Are you going to try and check/raise? I feel that, some how, you're not nearly as knowledgeable about this game as you believe you are.
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I'm not a big fan of the raise to $7. I know at this point, when first to act from MP, you're actually hoping to drag a caller into the pot, but with a raise of only $5, you're begging the button or blinds to play any ace, which is deathobviously on a flop like this.I would usually raise to at least 9-10, even moreso if it's liveplay instead of online. People call insane raises live for some reason.

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If there's no flush draw, i dont mind checking behind on the flop, call most bets on the turn and the river action would depend on how big the turn bet was. No need to protect. You rarely get value out of worse hands.If he has you beat, you're losing money anyways. If you have him beat, you pick up more bluffs.You keep the pot small for when he is going to try to bluff.Otherwise, i'd bet 3/4ths of the pot on the flop. Check behind on the turn if called. Call most bets on the river. And fold to a checkraise on the flop.

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Did you have him covered?I might just call, unlike the comment that the minraise is the devil, I find it to mean weakness more often than not. When you put in the minreraise, then what did he think? Well he thought "I made the minraise beacuse I knew he didn't have the A, he made the minraise back because he knew I didn't have the ace, but I know he don't so I'm all in" I hate the minraise in 99% of the time, I don't know what that 1% is yet either (but I'm leaving my self some outs)You always hear people saying they would lay down the K's here but somehow I see people calling, and winning sometimes with hands just like this one. I just wouldn't insta-fold, maybe like 70% muck 30% call...the stack sizes would make all the difference though.

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Uhm, why would you randomize something like that?Usually people call/raise/fold X% preflop (for instance) so that their range is unpredictable. That doesnt really apply here. Im sure there are some remote metagame effects to calling or folding with some unpredictability, but it's basically nill.

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In my opinion your continuation bet was too big. I would have bet $7-8, then folded to his min raise. This may seem tight, but when someone makes a min raise it almost always means that have a strong hand, since he/she is practically begging you to call. An expert player might make this raise in a tough game as a bluff, but this is usually not the case at the lower limits. Additionally, you'll probably be facing a big bet on 4th and have another tough decision. Cut your losses now and get out.

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Uhm, why would you randomize something like that?Usually people call/raise/fold X% preflop (for instance) so that their range is unpredictable. That doesnt really apply here. Im sure there are some remote metagame effects to calling or folding with some unpredictability, but it's basically nill.
I wasn't suggesting that I would randomize by calling x % and folding x %. I was just coming up with what I feel is an honest account of what I would do, without a read. I just think mucking here 100% of the time is too weak of a play.
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And no one said anything about min-raising a min-raise?
Min-raising a min-raise makes me want to peel my skin off. It's just disgusting.
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In my opinion your continuation bet was too big. I would have bet $7-8, then folded to his min raise. This may seem tight, but when someone makes a min raise it almost always means that have a strong hand, since he/she is practically begging you to call. An expert player might make this raise in a tough game as a bluff, but this is usually not the case at the lower limits. Additionally, you'll probably be facing a big bet on 4th and have another tough decision. Cut your losses now and get out.
The amount of the continuation bet had little to do with the play of this hand. Your suggesting betting half the pot, and basically bet the entire pot, both would be acceptable, with me leaning to the entire pot. I think continuation bets are just like opening raises, I think you should just generally do the same with good and bad hands alike. The min raise means a strong hand? I don't feel the same. Anytime a bet is out of line with what is appropriate, I find it to mean weakness, but obviously not all the time. I think the min raise has evolved over time to mean something different than it meant say a year ago. A year ago I think it always meant strength, but I think people have started to use it to "suggest" a strong hand. This coupled with the all in over bet have really evolved in the last year. A year ago I would have said the all in over bet means a bluff, or a weak hand. Because so many people caught on to this, it has changed. More people everyday make a huge all in overbet, trying to convey that they are weak, or they are trying to steal, but they are not.
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i dont think you can really compare this hand to the other.alot of players play differently when the board is suited. this guy maybe thought the other guy was on a draw and tried to push him out of it.when a player see's :icon_suit_diamond: :icon_suit_diamond: :icon_suit_diamond: when he has A :icon_suit_club: A :icon_suit_spade: no matter if it is 10 players or 2 players, it will always make his black aces look bad. just remember that players play very differently when the board is suited

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I might just call, unlike the comment that the minraise is the devil, I find it to mean weakness more often than not. When you put in the minreraise, then what did he think? Well he thought "I made the minraise beacuse I knew he didn't have the A, he made the minraise back because he knew I didn't have the ace, but I know he don't so I'm all in"
If you want to minraise, play limit.Your raises should be designed to--and are not limited to--though, in no particular order...1. Win pots without show down.2. Gain value from a hand that we're certain is the winner.3. Possibly induce a re-raise. 4. Collect information about the strength of the opponent's hand.5. Make a better hand lay down.Minraising his minraise accomplishes none of these.I'm sure it's worked for you, and I'm sure you won a good sized pot that way once, but it's simply not correct. Don't tell me that junk about 'well not every hand should be played the same..blah, blah, blah..'. Minraising a minraise is horrible. Seriously--what did we find out by minraising villain's initial minraise?
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I like your preflop raise except I don't like that you typed it...7$, it's usually pretty easy to read if people type their bets rather then use their mouse to make it, but that's just something I use as a tell...anyways you got a call so lets move on...For the flop play, I don't like it, You only get called or raised if you're beat, you could of easily bet 2/3 and get the same information. After the re raise, it's a pretty easy fold...so good job on folding, but you could of saved more money...

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If you want to minraise, play limit.Your raises should be designed to--and are not limited to--though, in no particular order...1. Win pots without show down.2. Gain value from a hand that we're certain is the winner.3. Possibly induce a re-raise. 4. Collect information about the strength of the opponent's hand.5. Make a better hand lay down.Minraising his minraise accomplishes none of these.I'm sure it's worked for you, and I'm sure you won a good sized pot that way once, but it's simply not correct. Don't tell me that junk about 'well not every hand should be played the same..blah, blah, blah..'. Minraising a minraise is horrible. Seriously--what did we find out by minraising villain's initial minraise?
If you don't like Drawing Dead, then keep posting hands in which you min raise. I have a feeling too many more of these and he is going to have a heart attack, or just plain kill himself. So if you don't like him keep it up, me I think the guy is pretty smart, I like having him around.
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If you want to minraise, play limit.Your raises should be designed to--and are not limited to--though, in no particular order...1. Win pots without show down.2. Gain value from a hand that we're certain is the winner.3. Possibly induce a re-raise. 4. Collect information about the strength of the opponent's hand.5. Make a better hand lay down.Minraising his minraise accomplishes none of these.I'm sure it's worked for you, and I'm sure you won a good sized pot that way once, but it's simply not correct. Don't tell me that junk about 'well not every hand should be played the same..blah, blah, blah..'. Minraising a minraise is horrible. Seriously--what did we find out by minraising villain's initial minraise?
i completly aggree with drawingdead about min raising everything that is stated here is pretty much right
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First post for me here and not sure how to transfer my online data to the forum (any help with this would be appreciated).Playing 1/2 NL. I am dealt KK in middle position and raise to $7. Only caller is a late position player that just sat down two hands ago. So no read on him.Flop comes AA8 rainbow. I do a continuation pot size bet ($15). He raises another $15 and I reraise it another $15 to see if he is serious or just trying to get information on me. He then shoves all-in for another $138. I go into the tank and lay it down.At first I was happy with the play but an hour later I saw him shove all in with top pair on a 3 suited flop when neither of his hold cards were that suit. He was busted out by someone who flopped a set. Now I know i go this information later but curious if I should of done something different. Did he really have an Ace? Would a check raise of cost me less to get the same information?
Good post, very interesting hand... I agree with the check-raise option. An AA8 flop is phenominal if you had an ace and presents no real draws so he might see your bet as weakness figuring you'd check-raise if you actually had an ace. I think you should've re-raised more on the flop. The minimum raise doesn't tell you very much. I think he was bluffing you with 1010 or something similar. A ballsy bluff but his move way over the top is strange to me. Why make such a big bet that would only get paid off if you have an ace? His later all-in bet you described makes him sound like a player who's willing to take some risks and a big bluff here would go along with that.
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I don't see the difference in whether villain had A-rag or 88. Either one you pick, you're WAY behind and folded correctly. I may have raised pre-flop $8-$10 and that may have driven A-rag out, but I'm being a bit picky here.However, you mention you saw the villain push later w/ a marginal holdng, at best. That tells me he was just as likely to have any pp. But, the only way to remedy a past situation is to hop in your time machine, go back into the past, and call him. "Heeeelllloooo! Think, McFly, think!" --BiffAll kidding aside, you did the best you could with the info you had and I would have done the same...LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY!Now that you have some info, and still have your stack, wait for him to try again, and SLAM HIM!

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