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farha vs. greenstein aa vs. kk preflop


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DrawingDeadInDM,I'm sure if you had said, "Don't fold KK preflop 99.9999999999999999999% of the time," this would have been a non-issue. People tend to not like absolute statements.Not that I think you're wrong or anything.That is all.

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Folding KK preflop is rare and I have never actually done it. DrawingDead, there are many situations that can arise in a cash game where the correct play is to fold preflop. It is all based on pot odds and hand range estimation.You raise to 3xBB UTG and get reraised to 9xBB from seat 6, if you then reraise to 25xBB and are put all in for your remaining 75BB, then you just have to put your opponent on a realistic range. In this situation you would be getting 125-75, or 5-3 on your call.Having made this play, you estimate his hand range - he is more likely to have AA or KK, because if he had AK, QQ, JJ, then there is a reasonable chance that he would have called or folded the 25BB raise rather than reraised.Against AA,KK you have 22% equity, and against AK,QQ,JJ you have 76% equity. There are 6 ways for him to be dealt AA, one way for him to be dealt KK, so that means 7 times you are going to be 22%There are 6 ways to be dealt QQ and JJ so that is 12, and there are 16 ways to have AK. You are 76% against this range. If you assume that maybe 80% (unrealistic, but it should prove my point) of the time he will just call or fold with these hands, then 20% of those 28 times you will be facing that range, or 5.6 times.Based on this, for every 5.6 times you are 76%, 7 times you will be 22%. Overall, this means you have 46% equity, easily enough to call based on your pot odds.Now suppose you have a stronger read on your opponent - he is tight, and you know he only raises UTG with premium hands. He raises to 3xBB UTG and you reraise to 9xBB. He raises all in for 150xBB total and you know based on the player that he will not usually do this with JJ,AK or AQ, and he is likely to just call the reraise in that situation, so you can safely say he will have AA-QQ 80% of the time. Now it is reasonable to assume that with QQ he will be less likly to push all in, so maybe you say that 40% of the time he will push all in with QQ here, 60% call or reraise.Now, against the AA,KK you are 22% 7 times, and against QQ you are 82% 6 x 0.4 times. Based around this, you have 37% equity. Now factor in that 20% of the time he will have AK,AQ,JJ. Overall, you have 44% equity and only have odds of 48.5% so you should fold.In real terms, by the time you find out that the guy most likely has aces, you are usually getting somewhere near the odds to call anyway.Having said that, there are times where you can be more certain of AA, such as when there have been several raises and an early position limper (who is a solid player) pushes all in. You can often justify folding is such circumstances.Folding KK preflop requires a strict set of circumstances - once in 22 times you will run into AA, but most of the time you will not gather enough information to fold or one of you may decide to trap. I believe I am good enough to fold KK, but it would have to be the perfect situation. I have folded QQ many times and have never been wrong as yet.

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Against AA,KK you have 22% equity.
Against KK you have 50% equity. Unless I'm missing something.Anyone here who is taking time to figure out when to fold Kings to Aces is wasting their time. Almost certainly, we all have much, much larger leaks than getting all in preflop kk vs. aa. And if this really a legitimate concern for any of you, you should tp/mm.If you have such a ridiculously solid read on someone, you must be in-fucking-credible.
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This thread is way to long lol, i hate adding to it but it looks like ppl forget a few simple things about this.1) It was Heads UP.2) I dont think Barry Greenstein is percieved to be one of the tightest players at that table. And its still Heads UP!3) Did i mention its Heads UP?I dont think i would have laid KK down in a HU situation like that.Oh and again its HU.Peace

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Against AA,KK you have 22% equity.
Against KK you have 50% equity. Unless I'm missing something.Anyone here who is taking time to figure out when to fold Kings to Aces is wasting their time. Almost certainly, we all have much, much larger leaks than getting all in preflop kk vs. aa. And if this really a legitimate concern for any of you, you should tp/mm.If you have such a ridiculously solid read on someone, you must be in-fucking-credible.
I'm talking about hand ranges. I use a program called Pokerstove to calculate these statistics. You are right that you have 50% equity against KK, but you only have 18% against AA. He will have AA 6 times for every one time he has KK, so you have (6 x 0.18 + 1 x 0.5)/7 = 22.5% equity against the range including both AA and KK
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Drawing Dead,A lot of big name pros just busted out of the LA Classic and need their fix in the 500 NL game. Some fresh face raises 3.5 bb UTG, fold, Phil Hellmuth raises, fold, Scotty Nguyen raises, fold, Dan Harrington goes all-in, you have 2 black kings on the button.Don't lash out, just be honest.Can we call this an absolute rarity?

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Well, he should put up with being tired of it if he's resorting to name-calling.Maybe he's just not good enough to lay this down.
no, maybe he plays within his bankroll and understands risk.and understands players push with less than AA often enough to make this call profitable long term.don't be a clown.
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Well, he should put up with being tired of it if he's resorting to name-calling.Maybe he's just not good enough to lay this down.
Did I hurt some feelings?I'm sorry--I figured the first 156 times I explained why it's a bad idea in this thread were a good enough and reasonable explanation.And don't give me some tard ball BS about Scotty Nguyen, Phil Hellmuth and Dan Harrington--I'd be more likely to put it all in with KK against them then try and outplay them after the flop.You're right, I'm not good enough to lay KK down--and either are you, or anyone else on this forum. Anyone who tells you their story about how they did, made a good educated guess--but they won't tell you the time about they laid it down and it someone flashed QQ. So, seriously, STFU.This is not even a discussion.
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Well, he should put up with being tired of it if he's resorting to name-calling.Maybe he's just not good enough to lay this down.
no, maybe he plays within his bankroll and understands risk.and understands players push with less than AA often enough to make this call profitable long term.don't be a clown.
What's that pounding sound?Ya hear that?It sounds like someone just hit the nail on the head for the fifteenth time. :club:
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DrawingDeadinDM, I usually respect your views on NL Hold 'Em a lot and I consider you one of the very best posters on this forum. However, you're being an assh0le here and you're making statements that make no sense. If you have $20,000 in a 1/2 NL cash game and a tight opponent puts you all-in after you've reraised him, you'd be stupid to call and you'd give up tons of equity by making a huge theoretical mistake.
I stopped reading here. Why the hell would you sit at a 1/2 NL game with $20,000? Would anyone at the table have you covered? If not, then what does it matter if you run into AA when you have KK? Is $20,000 your entire bankroll? If so, why the hell are you sitting at a table with it?For the 100,000,000th time, play within your bankroll and stop being such a p.ussy!!!! It's idiots like you that make me want to strangle kittens.[/b]
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DrawingDeadinDM, I usually respect your views on NL Hold 'Em a lot and I consider you one of the very best posters on this forum. However, you're being an assh0le here and you're making statements that make no sense. If you have $20,000 in a 1/2 NL cash game and a tight opponent puts you all-in after you've reraised him, you'd be stupid to call and you'd give up tons of equity by making a huge theoretical mistake.
I stopped reading here. Why the hell would you sit at a 1/2 NL game with $20,000? Would anyone at the table have you covered? If not, then what does it matter if you run into AA when you have KK? Is $20,000 your entire bankroll? If so, why the hell are you sitting at a table with it?For the 100,000,000th time, play within your bankroll and stop being such a p.ussy!!!! It's idiots like you that make me want to strangle kittens.[/b]
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Barry Greenstein's not afraid to lay down the cooler. Here's a hand from the $2000 PLHE even at the WSOP that I always think of when people say that you "can't" lay down X hand because it's too big.Blinds 25/50Greenstein has [Qs, Qd]Nathan Brandon posts SBSomebody else posts BB1 or 2 foldsGreenstein raises to 1506 or 7 foldsBrandon reraises to 500BB foldsGreenstein callsFlop: [Qh, As, 6c]Brandon checksGreenstein checksTurn: [2d]Brandon bets 250Greenstein callsRiver: [5s]Brandon goes all-in for 1450Greenstein foldsBrandon shows [Ah, Ac]

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Barry Greenstein's not afraid to lay down the cooler. Here's a hand from the $2000 PLHE even at the WSOP that I always think of when people say that you "can't" lay down X hand because it's too big.Blinds 25/50Greenstein has [Qs, Qd]Nathan Brandon posts SBSomebody else posts BB1 or 2 foldsGreenstein raises to 1506 or 7 foldsBrandon reraises to 500BB foldsGreenstein callsFlop: [Qh, As, 6c]Brandon checksGreenstein checksTurn: [2d]Brandon bets 250Greenstein callsRiver: [5s]Brandon goes all-in for 1450Greenstein foldsBrandon shows [Ah, Ac]
OMFG....is this for real??? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT F*CKING CASH GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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No, I'm just saying that there are times when I am sure that someone has AA.The situation I gave isn't tard ball, it's actually knowing that an ultra-conservative player is coming with AA. I don't have a problem laying it down. If I'm not certain that they have AA, I'm coming every time.There is a time to lay down KK in my book.

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Barry Greenstein's not afraid to lay down the cooler. Here's a hand from the $2000 PLHE even at the WSOP that I always think of when people say that you "can't" lay down X hand because it's too big.Blinds 25/50Greenstein has [Qs, Qd]Nathan Brandon posts SBSomebody else posts BB1 or 2 foldsGreenstein raises to 1506 or 7 foldsBrandon reraises to 500BB foldsGreenstein callsFlop: [Qh, As, 6c]Brandon checksGreenstein checksTurn: [2d]Brandon bets 250Greenstein callsRiver: [5s]Brandon goes all-in for 1450Greenstein foldsBrandon shows [Ah, Ac]
Once again, this entire discussion has been about laying down KK preflop in a cash game. Now you bring up, yet another tournament reference, which serves no purpose in the discussion.Good job on proving how stupid you are.
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No, I'm just saying that there are times when I am sure that someone has AA.The situation I gave isn't tard ball, it's actually knowing that an ultra-conservative player is coming with AA. I don't have a problem laying it down. If I'm not certain that they have AA, I'm coming every time.There is a time to lay down KK in my book.
Yeah well, your book sucks.
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Barry Greenstein's not afraid to lay down the cooler. Here's a hand from the $2000 PLHE even at the WSOP that I always think of when people say that you "can't" lay down X hand because it's too big.Blinds 25/50Greenstein has [Qs, Qd]Brandon shows [Ah, Ac]
Geez, you mean someone layed down QQ with all that action at such a low blind level? Weird.Oh..and hey.. one more thing..WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NO LIMIT HOLD 'EM CASH GAMES--NOT TOURNEY'S, NOT PLHE, NOT SIT'N'GO'S, NOT OMAHA, NOT STUD, NOT SATELITES, NLHE CASH GAMES
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Barry Greenstein's not afraid to lay down the cooler. Here's a hand from the $2000 PLHE even at the WSOP that I always think of when people say that you "can't" lay down X hand because it's too big.Blinds 25/50Greenstein has [Qs, Qd]Brandon shows [Ah, Ac]
Geez, you mean someone layed down QQ with all that action at such a low blind level? Weird.Oh..and hey.. one more thing..WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NO LIMIT HOLD 'EM CASH GAMES--NOT TOURNEY'S, NOT PLHE, NOT SIT'N'GO'S, NOT OMAHA, NOT STUD, NOT SATELITES, NLHE CASH GAMES
On a side note..I lay down Aces preflop in Stud all the time. Lol.
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here's the thing. when you hold KK pre-flop, approx. 1 out of 20 times, one of your opponents will hold AA.thus theoretically, you should be folding your KK 1 out of 20 times against a single opponent at a full table.unfortunately, it's almost impossible to be accurate enough in our assessment of our opponent's possible holdings to make this a +ev play, although statistically it is the correct play 5% ofthe time which actually equates to quite a few KK laydowns over the course of a career.
But if Kings crack Aces 1 out of 5 times, then you should only lay it down 4% of the time. :club:
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